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Lets talk double teaming.

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Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#1 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sun Aug 2, 2015 5:16 pm

Salacious titles draw views right? hah.

So weve talked about the Raptors and hedging.

Weve talked about perhaps more switching/BLUEing on PnR.

Lets talk about the double team.

I was reading a Vantage article about this (I hadnt seen it posted), so lets cite all the Raps stuff first.

**Effective Double-Team Rate is defined in the Vantage glossary as the percentage of double-teams that lead directly to a Contest+ shot attempt, tie-up, deflection, offensive foul, denied pass, or turnover.

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So as you can see they have the lowest effective double team rate %, yet still give up few points allowed when actually double teaming.

There are some gifs, but im just going to post the text.

In fact, there seems to be a positive relationship between Effective Double-Team Rate and Points Allowed per 100 Double-Teams. Keep in mind, however, that the graph is not exactly to scale in order to better show the differences between particular teams rather than conducting a full-scale regression analysis. While no statistical tests were conducted to determine whether the correlation was significant or simply caused by chance, the counterintuitive team-level relationship, however small, helps demonstrate the double-edged nature of such a defensive strategy.

Double-teaming is a high-risk, high-reward tactic, intentionally leaving one opponent open in order pressure a scorer and get the ball out of his hands. While double-teaming can be very effective situationally, it can also make it far easier for opponents to score The New York Knicks and Toronto Raptors lie at extremes that can illustrate this point. While the Knicks hold a respectable 39.3 percent Effective Double-Team Rate (league average = 37.7 percent), they give up the most points at the highest rate, by far, at 6.8 per 100 doubles (league average = 5.5). On the other end of the spectrum, the Raptors give up just 5.2 points per 100 double-teams, yet hold the lowest Effective Double-Team Rate in the league at 31.0 percent.

The difference lies in the rate at which the doubling allows for better shot attempts by the double-teamed opponent or results in an assist. While 38.8 percent of Raptors double-teams result in a shot attempts or assists by opponents, an astounding 58.8 percent do so for the Knicks. Since all Effective Double-Team Rates fall below 45 percent, with the highest being the Nets at 43.8 percent, there is a lot to account for outside of what is considered an “effective” double-team. Timing, for example, is incredibly important. Doubling too late may still result in denied passing angles and deflections, but if a player has already worked himself into a favorable position, he can score more easily.


The Raptors, however, not only consistently show better timing on their doubles, but they attack more quickly and at a higher frequency. Not only do the Raptors rank 5th in Double-Teams per 100 Chances, but 37.7 percent of their double-teams result in no significant recorded game action compared to 20.4 percent for the Knicks. That might not sound impressive, but often, one of the best results of a double-team is that the offensive player makes his move and harmlessly passes out of the double.

The other part of the equation is also that the Raptors just have better personnel. Solid defensive players like Kyle Lowry substantially improve their ability to double-team effectively.


Heres some Raps players in effective doubles.

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I know everyones focused on one benign MU quote about the defense changing (re: basically just JV), but I think theres enough data to support (along with the hedging stuff I posted), we might not see less attacking of ball handlers. I would also like to see more switching if were going to be more versatile with guys capable of defending multiple positions.

Greer hiring aside, it seems that the signings/team is built to hedge more, and switch alot, which is not what the Bulls did. Altho the Bulls did seem to double alot (high effective double %), so perhaps that is where you see his influence.

Should they double more?? Should they continue this hyper hedging which could lead to more traps/doubles?? What say you?
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#2 » by Morse Code » Sun Aug 2, 2015 5:25 pm

That's what she said.


But really though, thanks VVV! Going to take some time to process this before I post my thoughts.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#3 » by 2wayplaya » Sun Aug 2, 2015 5:25 pm

Like im lou will?
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#4 » by Johnny Bball » Sun Aug 2, 2015 5:25 pm

I don't see the defense getting less agressive with the players we brought in. I see it going the other way. Less hedging because JV is slow and can't/won't, and try once again to drive players into a double team with JV. I see more double teaming and hedging when he's off the floor. Just a hunch based on how we play and how we played best.

And I don't think we hedge too much. We do it when avaiable, we had a few defenders that were very good at it and one bad, and it's the best pnr defense when you can do it. It shuts is down. The problem is what do we do when we can't hedge, not when we do.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#5 » by MixxSRC » Sun Aug 2, 2015 5:30 pm

We might start icing some pick and rolls but the team will ultimately use various pnr coverages and strategies.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#6 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sun Aug 2, 2015 6:00 pm

MixxSRC wrote:We might start icing some pick and rolls but the team will ultimately use various pnr coverages and strategies.


I said that last year. I hoped we would see more zone too. I think if anything thats where im critical of DC and the staff, because hey didnt deviate much. He would hedge or atleast show, on most PnR coverage, and force the MidRange, but teams just killed us in the MR (highest FG% against in that zone in the L). I want to see alot more switching, some BLUE middle PnR, some zone, etc.., in essense just mix it up more. In fairness, that defense led them to a (edit: top 10 finish the year before).

I wonder if DC is getting more of what the same considering Scola is much like Amir, great at hedging and rotating. Hes not the rim protector or even as good period, but hes capable atleast. You read the hedging thread I posted, youll see DMC is good at it too. I just wonder the more and more I look, how different this team will be? unless Greer has a huge influence (and maybe he does?) or something like that. I could see alot of status quo too.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#7 » by Undefeated » Sun Aug 2, 2015 6:23 pm

Double teams are effective, but it has to be from certain spots on the floor that you want to do it at or else the defense becomes vulnerable. One team that doubled really well was the Rockets in the playoffs and it was interesting where and how the double was coming from because unlike most doubles the double would normally come from up top with a guard digging at the post; instead, the Rockets would double anytime on a post feed once the post entry passer would cut off the post and clear to the weak-side, they would just switch off (his man and the weak-side defender on the help-side line) similar to X-switching when you defend a screen-the-screener action. I think what's great about this tactic is that the offense isn't accustomed to this and it catches the big off guard with where the double team comes from.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#8 » by Zeno » Sun Aug 2, 2015 6:30 pm

I'm a little sceptical about the validity of this "effective double-team rate". Seems to be missing a whole lot of the picture of the possession in which a double team occurs.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#9 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sun Aug 2, 2015 6:51 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:I don't see the defense getting less agressive with the players we brought in. I see it going the other way. Less hedging because JV is slow and can't/won't, and try once again to drive players into a double team with JV. I see more double teaming and hedging when he's off the floor. Just a hunch based on how we play and how we played best.

And I don't think we hedge too much. We do it when avaiable, we had a few defenders that were very good at it and one bad, and it's the best pnr defense when you can do it. It shuts is down. The problem is what do we do when we can't hedge, not when we do.


I think the problem has been, when we hedge/double/trap or even sometimes show on PnR, usually we get burned because of how high its set, and the scramble that ensues. Its compounded with the fact, even though JV is a good rim protector and drops as he should, they gave up the worst % in the L in midrange FG%. So he would drop, Gs/Ws get crushed 2v1, and its a wet midrange game or good in the paint/Restricted area (per FG% against, and when you think of the high volume of fouls) finishes too.

The passing that results of a double is a problem, thats a neutral win (meaning its not accounted for) by this stat, but its the concurring running around thats a byproduct of this that probably is most bothersome. I think we could use some passing stats from each double/etc.. for more context.

I think DH showed that maybe Greer will come in (along with any of the new ASTs) and change the philosophy up abit. So thats a possibility. I agree youre likely to see more of the same.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#10 » by vini_vidi_vici » Sun Aug 2, 2015 6:57 pm

Zeno wrote:I'm a little sceptical about the validity of this "effective double-team rate". Seems to be missing a whole lot of the picture of the possession in which a double team occurs.


Well it just doesnt include passing data (aside from TOVs). So like I said in the previous post, that is an apparent issue with this franchise, that the stat wont convey. But I dont think you dismiss it outright based on that either, we jsut dont have access to all their data to see how its catalogued.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#11 » by Kabookalu » Sun Aug 2, 2015 9:38 pm

Good stuff VVV.

There's so much mixed messages from our moves this offseason regarding our defense. Masai claims we'll see a (slightly) different defense and hires Greer, but he goes out and acquires players that are here to bolster the defense we've ran just the season ago. Maybe we'll see something that can somehow incorporate both? I don't even know if it's possible, just kind of speaking out loud.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#12 » by Johnny Bball » Sun Aug 2, 2015 10:42 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:I think the problem has been, when we hedge/double/trap or even sometimes show on PnR, usually we get burned because of how high its set, and the scramble that ensues. Its compounded with the fact, even though JV is a good rim protector and drops as he should, they gave up the worst % in the L in midrange FG%. So he would drop, Gs/Ws get crushed 2v1, and its a wet midrange game or good in the paint/Restricted area (per FG% against, and when you think of the high volume of fouls) finishes too.

The passing that results of a double is a problem, thats a neutral win (meaning its not accounted for) by this stat, but its the concurring running around thats a byproduct of this that probably is most bothersome. I think we could use some passing stats from each double/etc.. for more context.

I think DH showed that maybe Greer will come in (along with any of the new ASTs) and change the philosophy up abit. So thats a possibility. I agree youre likely to see more of the same.


How high its set? Its only one player we are talking about then. Well, we could give the perimeter up.

JV drops way further than he's supposed to and it was often. He has to be in position to stop or redirect the ballhandler if he drops still. When he stands ten feet back, we can't stop the ballhandler. When he stands ten feet back neither player can defend the pick and pop. It doesn't matter whether its hedge, show, ice, all require the big to be somewhat up on the play. Dropping/playing that far off the play is bad defense. Its what forces a rotation or help. A break down in the defense causes the rotation. What other philosophy can work that allows him to stand ten feet back? We will try to drive the play to the the sides instead of the middle, but that should make only a small diference. Don't see how it makes the rotation ro help come quicker when it breaks down. Maybe the idea is that Carroll and PP rotate faster to help. Or maybe PP and Scola will defend the pnr big. Amir was just too hurt and too slow plast year. Most teams don't have two bigs the run the pnr with.

The only real difference I can see with playing JV is to have the guards start going under the screens so we aren't burned whenever he's put in the pnr, but that gives up the 3 very easy and its why its not common in the NBA now, too many good 3 point shooters. Or if JV gets increases in foot speed and his BBIQ/recognition. Other than that, its still the weak point of our D probably.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#13 » by Jonn » Sun Aug 2, 2015 10:42 pm

Zeeeeeee Double Team!
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#14 » by MCFC » Mon Aug 3, 2015 1:31 am

Fail thread, came here for some Sasha Grey :o
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#15 » by Hero » Mon Aug 3, 2015 1:42 am

How much of double teaming has to do with personnel?

I can see a team like Milwaukee utilizing it well but then with the Raptors I'm not so sure. Wouldn't it work a lot better with lengthy defenders who have good defensive instinct?
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#16 » by Danchan » Mon Aug 3, 2015 4:16 am

i hope masai is not building a team with the determination of double teaming more
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#17 » by Lunchpailhero1 » Mon Aug 3, 2015 1:17 pm

This strategy seems perfect for small ball. I could see us double teaming more frequently with our smaller line ups.

I think one of the main pros of double teaming is that it disrupts the flow of an offence. On the contrary, it makes for a scattered defence, which as evidence last year, hurt our rebounding because of constant rotating, leading to poor rebounding position.

Seems like our new personnel/additions will help with this though.

Btw I agree with VVV, I would love to see more zone. Another way of changing the tempo and flow of the game.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#18 » by ruckus » Mon Aug 3, 2015 2:12 pm

I'm not sure how to interpret this. I'm seeing a bit of a mixed message in terms of double-teaming. The players that were brought in came from teams that double-team substantially more than the Raptors however, these players' double-team stats from above don't look too great. Conversely, the players that we lost all look to be effective double-teamers. So does this mean we will double less?

If it was the same personnel coming back this year, I'd say increase the doubles as it looks like it works effectively for us.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#19 » by protothe » Mon Aug 3, 2015 4:20 pm

Need to add "Pause" to title.
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Re: Lets talk double teaming. 

Post#20 » by Mr Gametime » Mon Aug 3, 2015 4:32 pm

Everybody who starts or plays heavy minutes is ranked low except Carroll, our two lowest players Williams and Amir are now gone. If we go small ball I can see us doing more double teaming,
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