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Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre

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Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#1 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Aug 3, 2015 8:15 pm

Rob Mahoney over at SI ponders which of our 3 & D wings could be the best fit at SF this year:

The Atlanta Hawks approached most every game of the past two seasons content in the knowledge that DeMarre Carroll would defend the opponent's top wing scorer. No longer. Their next-best wing player on the roster is still working his way back from a broken right fibula. The only wings Atlanta added this summer were minimum-salary types and cast-offs. Such a course for replacement is indicative of the Hawks' confidence in their developmental systems.

Carroll was a low-maintenance player in many respects...He could be thrown into almost any lineup without all that much concern for how he'd fit; the variety of players that Carroll could guard and the flexibility of his offensive game made his presence welcome in most any context.

The options:
  • Tim Hardaway Jr...is clearly talented. What he lacks, at 23, is the basketball programming to make the best use of those talents within a team context. Hardaway is still growing as a player, though everything we've seen from him suggests that he is a reluctant passer and too-willing shooter.
  • Thabo Sefolosha...was discarded by the Thunder for how his limitations cramped that team's offense. Atlanta's remaining starters worked around Sefolosha to manage a solid margin in the regular season despite his shooting 32% from 3. It's the playoffs that Sefolosha's patient shot release and underwhelming percentage might have become a bigger problem.
  • Kent Bazemore could well start in the interim...The issues: Bazemore's length and quickness can't quite make up for the fact that his defense can get jumpy and his offense is generally unreliable. A stopgap option like Bazemore just isn't steady or well-rounded enough to complement all the other lineups.
  • Justin Holiday is another long-armed defender with clear offensive limitations.
  • Dennis Schroder can also play alongside Korver and Jeff Teague as matchups permit, though he brings both a very different set of skills (off-the-dribble creation, playmaking) and concerns (ball dominance, over-shooting).


Thoughts?
Predictions?
Concerns?
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#2 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Aug 3, 2015 8:36 pm

This is a pretty good read. It's nice that we've been good enough that analysts have actually seen enough of our games/players to accurately assess what options & concerns we face moving forward.

From what I can tell, Thabo is absolutely the immediate option to replace Demarre. While he recovers, I can see Bazemore getting the starter's role while THJ gets minutes at backing up both SG & SF.

Ultimately, I see THJ being groomed as a starter at one of these positions. I can't fathom a 1st rounder being spent on him if our coaching staff didn't see him as a long-term fixture here...potentially.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#3 » by PandaKidd » Mon Aug 3, 2015 8:38 pm

Concerns? Tons.
Predictions? We will be really really terrible at the SF position this year.
Thoughts? We traded 1 achilles heal for another. We traded an A+ backup Center for our Starting SF (granted the money wasnt even the same).

I understand WHY we lost carroll, but if you look at our guys and their size, there isnt anyone outside Thabo that is even close to your prototypical SF. I mean Korver MAYBE but he cant start there every game. If he does, then who is the SG? Anyway you slice it we got much weaker at the guard position which the NBA is trending toward more and more, kind of baffles me.

I loved the Splitter signing, finally gives us some balls in the front court, a dirty worker, clean up man. But losing your starting SF/G with no real clear heir kind of sucks. Even a Matt Barnes would have helped vs our current options.

Itll be interesting, I suspect we will see a different brand of "buds system" this year with some PM at the 3 along with KK at the 3 when DS/Teague are on the floor.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#4 » by MaceCase » Tue Aug 4, 2015 10:17 pm

Don't really see the issue. Last year the wing depth was Kyle, DeMarre, Thabo and Kenneth. This year it's Kyle, Thabo, Timothy, Kenneth, and Justin. Most people would say that the depth at wing increased, no? Going from 4 to 5? As good as Demarre was we can't even begin to pretend as if he had some sort of accomplished resume coming into the Hawks or that he didn't benefit from the system itself. Kyle can play SF (where he's spent most of his career) or Thabo can start (which he has for the majority of his career), both have greater resume's than DeMarre ever had or will likely have.

Assuming health, this isn't nearly as big of an issue as it's been made out to be. Thabo, Baze, and Holiday are the defensive specialists and they are now backed by having a more accomplished defender in the frontcourt in Splitter. Hardaway is the bench gunner shooting specialist that Bud wanted last year when he was courting Ray Allen that will help alleviate the need for Dennis being the majority of the bench offense, and Kyle of course is the 3 point extraordinaire with the gravitational pull of Jupiter. SSDY.
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Post#5 » by PandaKidd » Tue Aug 4, 2015 11:33 pm

You went from two 6'7" /6'8" SF to 1 6'7" coming off a broken leg and over 30 years old , bazemore who I believe is listed at 6'6", and a guy who barely played at all last year in Holiday.

So yeah lets not act like "depth" replaces "talent".

I don't think Sefolosha is a starting caliber SF, and he has major health concerns. Kyle isn't a SF and he can't guard opposing SF.

Itll be SF by committee , I really think the key will be how much bazemore has improved and if THJ can make the leaps DMC did in this system.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#6 » by MaceCase » Wed Aug 5, 2015 3:02 am

Well I can see how someone can think that Kyle who is the exact same height as Millsap and has played SF for most of his career isn't capable of playing at that position while believing that Millsap could and I also see how someone can think that Thabo who has started 400 out of his total career 600 games isn't starter quality either. I of course believe that they could still continue to manage what they've done for the majority of their careers but I can understand the reticence over those facts.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#7 » by PandaKidd » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:41 pm

MaceCase wrote:Well I can see how someone can think that Kyle who is the exact same height as Millsap and has played SF for most of his career isn't capable of playing at that position while believing that Millsap could and I also see how someone can think that Thabo who has started 400 out of his total career 600 games isn't starter quality either. I of course believe that they could still continue to manage what they've done for the majority of their careers but I can understand the reticence over those facts.

Hey man, if you want to look at stats go for it, I watch the games. our stats are WAY off.........

Kyle Korver- 6'7'' 34 YEARS OLD (coming off a broken ankle) 212lbs
Thabo Sefolosha- 6'7'' 31 YEARS OLD (coming off a broken leg and calf injury) 222lbs
Paul Millsap- 6'8'' 30 YEARS OLD 260lbs

Youre crazy, They arent even CLOSE to the same size. Korver CANT play SF night in night out. Maybe he could for a REALLY **** Utah team in the early part of his career which leads me to my next point:

Korver was ALWAYS a bench player, I think at most he averaged 20MPG with Chicago and even then he was apart of BENCH MOB. He was always a role player, NEVER a starter. Since my comment was about STARTING SFs, lets try and stick to that shall we?

Korver was a Starting SF here ONLY when we had Josh Smith and Devin Harris was our starting 2 guard LOL Hes always thrived as the Starting SG or off the bench SF. Hes not capable of being a STARTING SF at 34 years old , anyone who thinks that, good luck. You better have some REALLY athletic guards to back him up. He plays great help defense when he uses his size to his advantage against opposing 2 Guards. Vs other SF you take away his strength, again, good luck.

Thabo COULD be a starting caliber SF, but last 3 years he hasnt shown me that when he has had a rash of soft tissue injuries and other issues.

Paul Millsap cant play SF, lets just stop saying that, its stupid. STARTING caliber SF for a majority of the season, no way. Hes just not quick enough, especially at 260lbs. Every game i saw him try to play at SF he got worked on defense. Now granted PM has advantages on the offensive end with his outside shot and quickness for the PF position, but vs other SFs what he has on them in size, he loses in quickness on the other end.

So, yeah, completely disagree
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#8 » by PandaKidd » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:46 pm

I will laugh when KK or PM have to guard:
Lebron
Paul George
Melo
Demarre

at the 3 spot. the ONLY SF in the East they could have a chance at would be Dunleavy, but even he has 2 inches and 10 lbs on Korver.

No no no our SF will be SF by committee. I expect to see BazeGAWD and THJ off the bench and Thabo is the starter. WHEN Thabo goes down, Baze likely the starter, which kind of scares the crap out of me.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#9 » by MaceCase » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

PandaKidd wrote:Hey man, if you want to look at stats go for it, I watch the games. our stats are WAY off.........

Oh, it's the old "I'm wrong but I'll retort with the assumption that you don't watch games" argument.

Kyle Korver- 6'7'' 34 YEARS OLD (coming off a broken ankle) 212lbs
Paul Millsap- 6'8'' 30 YEARS OLD 260lbs

Youre crazy, They arent even CLOSE to the same size. Korver CANT play SF night in night out. Maybe he could for a REALLY **** Utah team in the early part of his career which leads me to my next point:

NBA Draft combine height without shoes:
Kyle Korver 6'6.25"
Paul Millsap 6'6.25"
DeMarre Carroll 6'6.25"

MaceCase wrote:Well I can see how someone can think that Kyle who is the exact same height as Millsap and has played SF for most of his career


PandaKidd wrote: Kyle isn't a SF and he can't guard opposing SF.


You lack reading comprehension yet at the same time expect people to be clairvoyant. You also have a terrible memory if you think that a Utah team under Jerry Sloan was ****. And if your criteria for someone being a starting quality SF is their ability to defend LeBron, Melo, and George (3 guys that will and have played more PF over the past 4 years than SF) then 90% of the league can't play or start at SF, to then include DeMarre frickin Carroll amongst that list makes me wonder if you watch any games. Maybe the concessions at Phillips are just that damn good or the cheerleaders that entertaining?

Any way, the article in the OP makes no mention of starting specifically or even mention of Small Forward so how exactly did that become the emphasis of the thread? All I know is that the Hawks have numerous players with the size, length, skill and experience to replace DeMarre but I suppose your opinion overrides all of those facts.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#10 » by PandaKidd » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:41 pm

I disagree completely.

We are much weaker at SF, period.

If you look at DEPTH CHARTS sir, Melo/LBJ/PG play SF. DMC was our SF , Paul Millsap NEVER guarded Lebron/Melo/PG.

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/cle/cleveland-cavaliers
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/ind/indiana-pacers
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/depth/_/name/ny/new-york-knicks

Yeah so I dont have any idea what games you are watching, sure they OCCASIONALLY play PF, but its not their starting position. Maybe you forgot about David West, Tristan Thompson/Love , and Haslem/Bosh from the Heat? Melo , mehhh bad example prob because he could play C on that team its so terrible. But hes listed as their SF.

Having said all this, the offense will heavily depend on Millsap/AH/Teague. PERIOD. We have to see HUGE seasons from those 3 guys, your 1/2/3 options in the offense. Sefolosha if he can stay healthy, he just has to be a defensive specialist, but I worry about him playing extended minutes over a full season with his injury history.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#11 » by Hawks champs » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:42 pm

If I remember correctly millsap was shutting down lebron while the broadcast crew laughed at him defending lebron in the conference finals. Don't think he can guard most SFs but for the combo forwards like lebron or melo I think he can do fine in small stretches.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#12 » by MaceCase » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:08 pm

Depth charts? Really, now. So you want to claim you "watch" but you're resorting to what position a guy is listed at rather than where he plays?

Paul George came into the league as a SG (there was this All Star at SF, I forget his name, rhymed with danger I think). Has played some SF and now his coach and GM say he's playing PF but uh, I guess teams submit their official lineups to ESPN in August. Sounds about right.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/11/paul-george-preparing-to-play-power-forward/

Lebron was a starting PF on the Heat, you may have missed that what with Bosh playing C in zero starting lineups with Haslem but with Shane Battier instead but lord knows what the hell sport you actually watch if you missed entire championship seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#advanced_pbp::none

Before last year's disastrous season where he played in less than 50% of his team's games, guess where Carmelo had two of his career best seasons for a winning Knicks team.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html#advanced_pbp::none

Yea, spending 80% of your minutes at a position is "occasional"

much like Sap "NEVER" guarded LeBron
http://img.deseretnews.com/images/article/mcontentimage/1068370/1068370.jpg
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/475410856-forward-lebron-james-of-the-cleveland-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QbfVzBRnsLwLWq7he0zsXWckqBStJVE86PI1KbpkXjJGrXStDThl4ji%2FGhMyI6zp7g%3D%3D

Or Melo
https://thebasketballsociety.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/carmelo_millsap.jpeg

Or I guess George who, uhm, he better be ready to guard regardless.



So uhm ya, it's factually proven that

DeMarre wasn't taller, longer, or bigger than the current options on the team.

Demarre wasn't an offensive option over Kyle who was an All Star.

Demarre wasn't a defensive option over Thabo who has made an All Defense team.

So you can sweat the loss as though there weren't already options on the team even before Bud went out to trade for and sign guys or pretend as if (and I'm still laughing at you for this comparison) that DeMarre was on par with Lebron, Melo and George but I've WATCHED the games, looked at the paper and share the same confidence with the Coach of the Year that the team is prepared to replace what he brought to the court.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#13 » by PandaKidd » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:06 pm

hey man if you keep wanting to argue that
Thabo/Korver > DMC/Thabo

go for it :banghead:

I never said DMC was on the same level as the other all stars :crazy: All I said was that I was concerned that our most athletic SF who had a career season is gone, and his replacement HAS A BROKEN LEG and hasnt been healthy in 3 seasons.

YOu can be a homer all you want and see what you want to see. I just disagree, but you have issues with people disagreeing with you. In most of the games last year, I never saw PM guard Lebron. Now im SURE you can go google PAUL MILLSAP GUARDING LEBRON and find the 1 switch on a PNR where he guarded him. :lol:

Melo is a combo forward, but he prefers to play at SF, HE DOES NOT WANT TO PLAY PF anymore, hes said it for 2-3 years.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/58885/melo-ready-to-play-primarily-small-forward

You keep bringing up the past 3 seasons, im talking about THIS SEASON coming up, who gives a **** if Millsap Guarded Lebron while he was in Utah? Its irrelevant. Who cares where Melo played 2 years ago, he will be a SF next year, and the depth charts reflect that. Same with LBJ.

SO, if you are done with the worthless history lesson, next year at SF we will have to guard those 3 players with a guy who RIGHT NOW has a broken tibia. But in your world, we are somehow better off or not that bad :crazy:
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#14 » by PandaKidd » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:07 pm

And hey Jackass:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#advanced_pbp::none

You see those Position stats, what do they OVERWHELMINGLY SAY LEBRON PLAYS?
SMALL EFFFFFING FORWARD

SEE THAT CAREER PERCENTAGE? SEE LAST YEAR?
77% AT ...............................SMALL FORWARD

Thanks for playing.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#15 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:16 pm

You Guys...are adorable.

:argue:

:box:

:beer:

:party:

No need to argue over it. We'll get to see soon enough.



Back on the original topic, I had a thought regarding Justin Holliday.

Based on his size/weight, seems like he might be better suited to play primarily at SG.

His skillset is reminiscent of another highly coveted wing from FA this summer: Could Justin be our version of Danny green moving forward?
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#16 » by PandaKidd » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:28 pm

Im overly pessimistic, that is not secret around here. I agree with the topics title , Hawks have limited options to replace DMC. YOu have to replace one of the BEST 2 way SFs in the Eastern Conference last year.

Right now, you dont have an answer. If Thabo somehow becomes DMC from last year, awesome. Kudos to Ferry for that signing. I personally dont see it.

Bazemore I dont see as a long term solution due to his size.

I guess the other thing is I play SF/PF, Im not 1/10000000000000th the player NBA players are. But usually the SF has 3 options:
Be small and quick so you can be an overgrown 2 guard
Be athletic and long in length so you can abuse other SFs
Be big so you can overpower other SFs and sometimes play PF.

I mean Millsap is a perfect example. He has the WEIGHT of a PF but not really the height. Hes not qucik enough to play with other SFs, and hes not the ball handler other SFs are. So he plays PF, where he IS quick enough to outplay opposing PFs. He isnt quick enough to play SF but hes quick enough to use his size to his advantage vs other PFs.

Me personally, I want a SF in the 6'7'' - 6'8'' range with length but has the dribbling of a 2 guard (and the outside shot). I just dont see that person on our roster right now. DMC was.

You realize we dont have 1 guy OVER 6'6'' that is a guard ACCEPT Thabo and Korver. We will be really undersized at SF if either of them gets hurt (and Korver actually plays SG mostly, as previously stated)

So the recipe for success , IMO, is we will get less production from the SF position, and MORE production from the PG/C position.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#17 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:50 pm

PandaKidd wrote:Im overly pessimistic, that is not secret around here. I agree with the topics title , Hawks have limited options to replace DMC. YOu have to replace one of the BEST 2 way SFs in the Eastern Conference last year.

Right now, you dont have an answer. So the recipe for success , IMO, is we will get less production from the SF position, and MORE production from the PG/C position.


I concur.

And if THJ struggles with defensive principles, I have deep concerns regarding the SG position as well.

We now have adequate depth at C & PF. But we left a huuuuge hole at SF (and to a lesser extent SG) to do so. Bud seems to prefer journeymen and role players at these positions.

Everything comes down to his staff's ability to continue and develop scrubs, has-beens and never-will-be's into diamonds in the rough.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#18 » by PandaKidd » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:53 pm

#GROUPHUG
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#19 » by MaceCase » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:26 pm

This is honestly why I don't like bothering to debate with children, they can't keep a coherent argument.

Yes Thabo, Korver, Hardaway, Holiday and Bazemore should be able to match a unit that featured Korver, Carroll, Thabo and Bazemore, you know, especially since all but one meet your criteria of being 6'6" and above too but I guess they can't match the combination of ball handling (they are all better but Korver) and shooting (they are all comparable but Holiday) that the 4th best SF in the Eastern Conference had to offer.

A history lesson is apt because, uhm, if you're saying a player can't guard another player. or "NEVER" did....yet there's historical evidence suggesting that they did...then you're wrong. Uhm, did Paul switch to Center when those guys were at PF for all of those years? For someone who claims they "watch" games did you miss Paul guarding LeBron in both the regular season and playoffs for long stretches? Of course you did, I'm sure it's hard to see out of your own cavernous ass.

The same cavernous ass that places DeMarre in the same sentence as LeBron, Melo and George only to then claim that you didn't do that right before claiming again that DeMarre is one of the "BEST (emphasis was yours) 2 way SFs in the EC". Oh, really now? So I guess how this works is you overrate the hell out of the leaving player while simultaneously being entirely pessimistic over the current players? Ah, that's cool, it goes along with your medical expertise that despite it taking only 6-8 weeks for bones to heal and Thabo receiving his injury in April he somehow still has a broken tibia "RIGHT NOW". Which of course goes along with your apparent lack of respect for history.....except when it comes to Thabo's past injuries which have also magically extended from 2 seasons to 3 and are entirely relevant for "THIS SEASON".

Yea, so you're trying to insult me by calling me a "homer" (amongst other choice names) while I'm making factual statements while you proudly proclaim yourself a pessimist while making idiotic statements....Yea, it's time to move on. Not worth wasting time on someone with this little self awareness.
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Re: Hawks have limited options to replace DeMarre 

Post#20 » by PandaKidd » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:31 pm

MaceCase wrote:This is honestly why I don't like bothering to debate with children, they can't keep a coherent argument.

Yes Thabo, Korver, Hardaway, Holiday and Bazemore should be able to match a unit that featured Korver, Carroll, Thabo and Bazemore, you know, especially since all but one meet your criteria of being 6'6" and above too but I guess they can't match the combination of ball handling (they are all better but Korver) and shooting (they are all comparable but Holiday) that the 4th best SF in the Eastern Conference had to offer.

A history lesson is apt because, uhm, if you're saying a player can't guard another player. or "NEVER" did....yet there's historical evidence suggesting that they did...then you're wrong. Uhm, did Paul switch to Center when those guys were at PF for all of those years? For someone who claims they "watch" games did you miss Paul guarding LeBron in both the regular season and playoffs for long stretches? Of course you did, I'm sure it's hard to see out of your own cavernous ass.

The same cavernous ass that places DeMarre in the same sentence as LeBron, Melo and George only to then claim that you didn't do that right before claiming again that DeMarre is one of the "BEST (emphasis was yours) 2 way SFs in the EC". Oh, really now? So I guess how this works is you overrate the hell out of the leaving player while simultaneously being entirely pessimistic over the current players? Ah, that's cool, it goes along with your medical expertise that despite it taking only 6-8 weeks for bones to heal and Thabo receiving his injury in April he somehow still has a broken tibia "RIGHT NOW". Which of course goes along with your apparent lack of respect for history.....except when it comes to Thabo's past injuries which have also magically extended from 2 seasons to 3 and are entirely relevant for "THIS SEASON".

Yea, so you're trying to insult me by calling me a "homer" (amongst other choice names) while I'm making factual statements while you proudly proclaim yourself a pessimist while making idiotic statements....Yea, it's time to move on. Not worth wasting time on someone with this little self awareness.




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With all due respect, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, go **** yourself :)

I cant help it you have the comprehension skills of a 12 year old. Youre right, waste of time. Enjoy your Thabo Sefolosha jersey

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