Career defensive value: Shaq vs LeBron?

[OhayoKD]

Probably LeBron, Shaq rarely put up consistent effort on defense and even at his best had huge, exploitable holes in his game. He might peak a bit higher (debatable) but most of his years were significantly worse than 2000.

does shaq even have a good argument for a higher defensive peak than late cavs lebron? iirc the lakers were never as good defensively as the 15 or 16 cavs

2000 Lakers were historically good on defense in RS (not so much in the PS) and 2001 Lakers also were elite in the playoffs (but horrible in RS).

hm. 15 cavs and 16 cavs were good in the rs and atg in the playoffs iirc. It also doesn't really seem like they hit their cieling because they did alot worse against weaker first round offenses than they did vs top 5 offenses.

I think shaq played with better defenders so I'd really expect more if he was on par

[OhayoKD]

lebron anchored two 90's bulls level playoff defenses b2b in his 30's. What's shaq done to be in the same convo

Huh?

Lebron gave up finals mvp to all players at his position. Shaq only gave up to Hakeem.

what's that got to do with shaq's defense?

[TheLand13]

(or getting infamously snubbed of the award in 2013 when he was very clearly the best defender that year)

What evidence suggests Lebron was “clearly” the best defender in 2013?

weren't the cavs not even a top 5 defense? why should lebron have won dpoy?

Yes, in fact Cleveland was in the bottom five that season for defense I believe.

But LeBron played for Miami, not Cleveland. So I don't see how that's relevant.

[OhayoKD]

What evidence suggests Lebron was “clearly” the best defender in 2013?

weren't the cavs not even a top 5 defense? why should lebron have won dpoy?

Yes, in fact Cleveland was in the bottom five that season for defense I believe.

But LeBron played for Miami, not Cleveland. So I don't see how that's relevant.

meant miami

[TheLand13]

weren't the cavs not even a top 5 defense? why should lebron have won dpoy?

Yes, in fact Cleveland was in the bottom five that season for defense I believe.

But LeBron played for Miami, not Cleveland. So I don't see how that's relevant.

meant miami

In that case, the answer is still no. But that doesn't mean LeBron didn't deserve DPOY. Marc had a much better defensive supporting cast than LeBron did as well as a more in tuned system built around him. He still, at the end of the day, determined whether or not Memphis was an elite defensive team or not. But LeBron couldn't just guard one guy and leave it at that. He usually had to guard the best player the entire game regardless of what position they played.

The people who voted for Marc Gasol as DPOY didn't really factor in context and just looked at his advanced defensive stats, which were elite and among the best in the league. But there's a reason he didn't even make first team all defense, and that's because in the end, he wasn't even the best defensive center in the league. In fact, there were two centers who got first team all defense selections before he did. I'll probably do a more detailed breakdown of why LeBron deserved it over Gasol later on, but I wanted to make the point that not only was Gasol not better than LeBron, he wasn't even the best at his own position in regards to defense.

I will however admit that my statement where I claimed LeBron was "clearly" better was hyperbole and simply not correct. It's obviously close between the two. But with everything taken into consideration, I can't agree with the idea that Gasol deserved it over LeBron.

[Jaivl]

Yes, in fact Cleveland was in the bottom five that season for defense I believe.

But LeBron played for Miami, not Cleveland. So I don't see how that's relevant.

meant miami

In that case, the answer is still no. But that doesn't mean LeBron didn't deserve DPOY. Marc had a much better defensive supporting cast than LeBron did as well as a more in tuned system built around him.

And produced a vastly better defense with it. 5 points better when both on-court, that is a huge gap (and, to be generous to LeBron, let's not count the playoffs...).

He still, at the end of the day, determined whether or not Memphis was an elite defensive team or not. But LeBron couldn't just guard one guy and leave it at that. He usually had to guard the best player the entire game regardless of what position they played.

This sounds an awful lot like pro-Jordan arguments for DPOY...

The people who voted for Marc Gasol as DPOY didn't really factor in context and just looked at his advanced defensive stats, which were elite and among the best in the league. But there's a reason he didn't even make first team all defense, and that's because in the end, he wasn't even the best defensive center in the league. In fact, there were two centers who got first team all defense selections before he did. I'll probably do a more detailed breakdown of why LeBron deserved it over Gasol later on, but I wanted to make the point that not only was Gasol not better than LeBron, he wasn't even the best at his own position in regards to defense.

I will however admit that my statement where I claimed LeBron was "clearly" better was hyperbole and simply not correct. It's obviously close between the two. But with everything taken into consideration, I can't agree with the idea that Gasol deserved it over LeBron.

...and this gotta be a joke, cause it ain't no chance you're going to tell us that Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah or *gulp* DEANDRE JORDAN were better defenders than Marc Gasol, right?

[TheLand13]

meant miami

In that case, the answer is still no. But that doesn't mean LeBron didn't deserve DPOY. Marc had a much better defensive supporting cast than LeBron did as well as a more in tuned system built around him.

And produced a vastly better defense with it. 5 points better when both on-court, that is a huge gap (and, to be generous to LeBron, let's not count the playoffs...).

He still, at the end of the day, determined whether or not Memphis was an elite defensive team or not. But LeBron couldn't just guard one guy and leave it at that. He usually had to guard the best player the entire game regardless of what position they played.

This sounds an awful lot like pro-Jordan arguments for DPOY...

The people who voted for Marc Gasol as DPOY didn't really factor in context and just looked at his advanced defensive stats, which were elite and among the best in the league. But there's a reason he didn't even make first team all defense, and that's because in the end, he wasn't even the best defensive center in the league. In fact, there were two centers who got first team all defense selections before he did. I'll probably do a more detailed breakdown of why LeBron deserved it over Gasol later on, but I wanted to make the point that not only was Gasol not better than LeBron, he wasn't even the best at his own position in regards to defense.

I will however admit that my statement where I claimed LeBron was "clearly" better was hyperbole and simply not correct. It's obviously close between the two. But with everything taken into consideration, I can't agree with the idea that Gasol deserved it over LeBron.

...and this gotta be a joke, cause it ain't no chance you're going to tell us that Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah or *gulp* DEANDRE JORDAN were better defenders than Marc Gasol, right?

Chandler… sure. Noah? No. Jordan… eh? did he make the all defensive team?

Edit: I just looked it up and he didn’t, but he did in 2015 and 2016. I have no idea how I didn’t know that until now. That had to have been something I just completely forgotten about, because if you would’ve asked me how many he made, I would’ve just said 0.

[OhayoKD]

Yes, in fact Cleveland was in the bottom five that season for defense I believe.

But LeBron played for Miami, not Cleveland. So I don't see how that's relevant.

meant miami

In that case, the answer is still no. But that doesn't mean LeBron didn't deserve DPOY. Marc had a much better defensive supporting cast than LeBron did as well as a more in tuned system built around him. He still, at the end of the day, determined whether or not Memphis was an elite defensive team or not. But LeBron couldn't just guard one guy and leave it at that. He usually had to guard the best player the entire game regardless of what position they played.

The people who voted for Marc Gasol as DPOY didn't really factor in context and just looked at his advanced defensive stats, which were elite and among the best in the league. But there's a reason he didn't even make first team all defense, and that's because in the end, he wasn't even the best defensive center in the league. In fact, there were two centers who got first team all defense selections before he did. I'll probably do a more detailed breakdown of why LeBron deserved it over Gasol later on, but I wanted to make the point that not only was Gasol not better than LeBron, he wasn't even the best at his own position in regards to defense.

I will however admit that my statement where I claimed LeBron was "clearly" better was hyperbole and simply not correct. It's obviously close between the two. But with everything taken into consideration, I can't agree with the idea that Gasol deserved it over LeBron.

not "being the best at his own position" doesn't really matter since gasol played a much more valuable position defensively. "guarding the best player" isn't that important either. Even if you start a possession on someone the most important player is usually going to be the big man who you funnel that player towards.

Individual impact has gasol ahead of lebron in 13 and gasol anchored a way better defense. Gasol was a much better rim protector than lebron was in 13 and rim protection is the most important part of defense by far. Lebron was a much better defender in 09.

[TheLand13]

meant miami

In that case, the answer is still no. But that doesn't mean LeBron didn't deserve DPOY. Marc had a much better defensive supporting cast than LeBron did as well as a more in tuned system built around him. He still, at the end of the day, determined whether or not Memphis was an elite defensive team or not. But LeBron couldn't just guard one guy and leave it at that. He usually had to guard the best player the entire game regardless of what position they played.

The people who voted for Marc Gasol as DPOY didn't really factor in context and just looked at his advanced defensive stats, which were elite and among the best in the league. But there's a reason he didn't even make first team all defense, and that's because in the end, he wasn't even the best defensive center in the league. In fact, there were two centers who got first team all defense selections before he did. I'll probably do a more detailed breakdown of why LeBron deserved it over Gasol later on, but I wanted to make the point that not only was Gasol not better than LeBron, he wasn't even the best at his own position in regards to defense.

I will however admit that my statement where I claimed LeBron was "clearly" better was hyperbole and simply not correct. It's obviously close between the two. But with everything taken into consideration, I can't agree with the idea that Gasol deserved it over LeBron.

not "being the best at his own position" doesn't really matter since gasol played a much more valuable position defensively. "guarding the best player" isn't that important either. Even if you start a possession on someone the most important player is usually going to be the big man who you funnel that player towards.

Individual impact has gasol ahead of lebron in 13 and gasol anchored a way better defense. Gasol was a much better rim protector than lebron was in 13 and rim protection is the most important part of defense by far. Lebron was a much better defender in 09.

Centers will usually always have bigger impact defensively than a SF. That's just the way it is. Despite this, LeBron still held his opponents to a lower shooting percentage that season than Gasol did. This is why him always guarding the opposing teams best player is an important distinction to make. If LeBron was doing this and wasn't doing a good job of it, that would be a different story.

Someone mentioned that the Grizzlies allowed 5 fewer points with Gasol on the floor. It would make sense that there's a massive drop off when you consider the fact that he's their main rim protector. Consider the fact that with Miami, when LeBron was on the floor, they allowed 3.4 fewer points. It paints a picture that the guy who wasn't even their rim protector was providing this kind of defensive protection by being virtually everywhere on the floor.

[HeartBreakKid]

In that case, the answer is still no. But that doesn't mean LeBron didn't deserve DPOY. Marc had a much better defensive supporting cast than LeBron did as well as a more in tuned system built around him. He still, at the end of the day, determined whether or not Memphis was an elite defensive team or not. But LeBron couldn't just guard one guy and leave it at that. He usually had to guard the best player the entire game regardless of what position they played.

The people who voted for Marc Gasol as DPOY didn't really factor in context and just looked at his advanced defensive stats, which were elite and among the best in the league. But there's a reason he didn't even make first team all defense, and that's because in the end, he wasn't even the best defensive center in the league. In fact, there were two centers who got first team all defense selections before he did. I'll probably do a more detailed breakdown of why LeBron deserved it over Gasol later on, but I wanted to make the point that not only was Gasol not better than LeBron, he wasn't even the best at his own position in regards to defense.

I will however admit that my statement where I claimed LeBron was "clearly" better was hyperbole and simply not correct. It's obviously close between the two. But with everything taken into consideration, I can't agree with the idea that Gasol deserved it over LeBron.

not "being the best at his own position" doesn't really matter since gasol played a much more valuable position defensively. "guarding the best player" isn't that important either. Even if you start a possession on someone the most important player is usually going to be the big man who you funnel that player towards.

Individual impact has gasol ahead of lebron in 13 and gasol anchored a way better defense. Gasol was a much better rim protector than lebron was in 13 and rim protection is the most important part of defense by far. Lebron was a much better defender in 09.

Centers will usually always have bigger impact defensively than a SF. That's just the way it is. Despite this, LeBron still held his opponents to a lower shooting percentage that season than Gasol did. This is why him always guarding the opposing teams best player is an important distinction to make. If LeBron was doing this and wasn't doing a good job of it, that would be a different story.

Someone mentioned that the Grizzlies allowed 5 fewer points with Gasol on the floor. It would make sense that there's a massive drop off when you consider the fact that he's their main rim protector. Consider the fact that with Miami, when LeBron was on the floor, they allowed 3.4 fewer points. It paints a picture that the guy who wasn't even their rim protector was providing this kind of defensive protection by being virtually everywhere on the floor.

What do you mean? Teams shot lower against the Heat when Lebron was playing than M Gasol did with the Grizzlies? Because that's basically what matters.

If you mean some man to man ratings that is not anywhere near as important. Marc Gasol is a center and his man is more likely than not going to be a center. Center's shoot closer to the rim but also shoot on lesser volume. This means that

1) It's not as important for M Gasol to guard his man individually as it is for Lebron, as center's are not as big offensive threats as perimeter players are

2) It should be reasonably expected that M Gasol's opponent's shoot higher % than Lebron's as center's play closer to the rim and get easier shots than perimeter players

3) Bigs get their shots created for them more than wings, and wing's face more help defenders which contribute to their shooting % as well


Maybe I am making a strawman and you are arguing something else, could you elaborate on the bold?