Tank World Order (10.0) The Empire Strikes Back

[OakleyDokely]

The Warriors did hold out Ellis and Maggette etc. for the last few weeks of 08/09 to tank.

ya, very similar to the Raps TB tank. They were trying to win but then pulled the plug later in the season.

[DelAbbot]

No. They were attempting to build around the core that was Ellis, Jrich, Biedrins etc. They were rolling out guys like Maggette, Stephen Jackson, Jamal Crawford. And were winning 40+ games with that core for a bit. They just sucked in a really tough West.

Curry was drafted 7th
Klay was drafted 11th
Green was drafted 35th.

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

No one in this thread wants the exact same thing. Everyone is different.

I want to see Fred gone and we tank rest of this year to draft a high end prospect. Next year we run Poeltl+Pascal+Scottie+OG+new prospect with GTJ re-signed coming off the bench.

[Duffman100]

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

No they aren't, but l think lines get blurred between just sucking and just letting the end of the season go to waste to improve your chances in the draft, versus just flat out tanking from the rip. I think most of the posters here were fine with giving this team a shot at competing this season even if it was a likely 1st round exit. But once guys started seeing the struggle just to be a play-in team they threw their hands up and wanted to forfeit the season.

The entire concept is blurred. There is no sure-fire and guaranteed way, otherwise you'd see every team tanking.

[Duffman100]

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

No one in this thread wants the exact same thing. Everyone is different.

I want to see Fred gone and we tank rest of this year to draft a high end prospect. Next year we run Poeltl+Pascal+Scottie+OG+new prospect with GTJ re-signed coming off the bench.

Is there anyone here that wants us to consistently be in the 7-11 range for the next 3-4 years?

[anotherhomer]

I think tanking should be a last resort.
But with a road map to getting back to respectability.

I think raptors did honestly consider tanking this year tho or at least was open to the idea of it

[God Squad]

I don't think most people are in favour of a complete tear down. But it's clear as day certain players time here has run its course. That and our playstyle is unappealing, our bench is nonexistent and we clearly have a chemistry issue.

[God Squad]

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

No one in this thread wants the exact same thing. Everyone is different.

I want to see Fred gone and we tank rest of this year to draft a high end prospect. Next year we run Poeltl+Pascal+Scottie+OG+new prospect with GTJ re-signed coming off the bench.

Is there anyone here that wants us to consistently be in the 7-11 range for the next 3-4 years?

While it's not the ideal range to be in. You can refill the cupboard with those slots

Demar at 9
Ross at 8
Jak 9

Realistically you can fill the bench or roster at any spot. But trading picks when you need them in the worst way isn't the way to go. Masai/Bobby need to start hitting on picks wherever they land. Our bench and development has been lacking in the worst way.

[Duffman100]

No one in this thread wants the exact same thing. Everyone is different.

I want to see Fred gone and we tank rest of this year to draft a high end prospect. Next year we run Poeltl+Pascal+Scottie+OG+new prospect with GTJ re-signed coming off the bench.

Is there anyone here that wants us to consistently be in the 7-11 range for the next 3-4 years?

While it's not the ideal range to be in. You can refill the cupboard with those slots

Demar at 9
Ross at 8
Jak 9

Realistically you can fill the bench or roster at any spot. But trading picks when you need them in the worst way isn't the way to go. Masai/Bobby need to start hitting on picks wherever they land. Our bench and development has been lacking in the worst way.

Oh I agree. I don't love the deal and I love Jacob. I hate dealing picks (especially with only top 6 protection) when your team has been bad.

[God Squad]

Is there anyone here that wants us to consistently be in the 7-11 range for the next 3-4 years?

While it's not the ideal range to be in. You can refill the cupboard with those slots

Demar at 9
Ross at 8
Jak 9

Realistically you can fill the bench or roster at any spot. But trading picks when you need them in the worst way isn't the way to go. Masai/Bobby need to start hitting on picks wherever they land. Our bench and development has been lacking in the worst way.

Oh I agree. I don't love the deal and I love Jacob. I hate dealing picks (especially with only top 6 protection) when your team has been bad.

Agreed. I'm a Jakob fan, but we have so many holes at the moment. It's a deal that could have been avoided. I'm just hoping for a FVV/OG trade for two reasons.

1. OG - To recoup draft picks and hopefully get another team to "tank" for us. Plus too many overlapping skillset's.
2. FVV - To reestablish an identity/playstyle. Our product on the court has been an eyesore for some time and it's just time.

On the surface I'm happy to have Jakob back. But the protections on that trade are severely lacking and it just compounded my initial feelings towards this team.

[Duffman100]

While it's not the ideal range to be in. You can refill the cupboard with those slots

Demar at 9
Ross at 8
Jak 9

Realistically you can fill the bench or roster at any spot. But trading picks when you need them in the worst way isn't the way to go. Masai/Bobby need to start hitting on picks wherever they land. Our bench and development has been lacking in the worst way.

Oh I agree. I don't love the deal and I love Jacob. I hate dealing picks (especially with only top 6 protection) when your team has been bad.

Agreed. I'm a Jakob fan, but we have so many holes at the moment. It's a deal that could have been avoided. I'm just hoping for a FVV/OG trade for two reasons.

1. OG - To recoup draft picks and hopefully get another team to "tank" for us. Plus too many overlapping skillset's.
2. FVV - To reestablish an identity/playstyle. Our product on the court has been an eyesore for some time and it's just time.

On the surface I'm happy to have Jakob back. But the protections on that trade are severely lacking and it just compounded my initial feelings towards this team.

Yup, it does feel like we need a one for many trade to build out our asset depth. And I have no problem just letting Fred walk actually.

We're suffering from the championship hangover. We dealt a first for Ibaka, a first for Kawhi... we whiffed on Malachi and our 2nd rounders haven't added up to much.

[DelAbbot]

We are in no position to trade OG for young guys + picks after giving the Spurs 2024 FRP

We plan to full on compete in 2023/2024 despite what Masai said about reenergize or retool in the summer. It's all a lie

[WuTang_CMB]

Stealth tank is the way to go. But if you are teams like ORL you had no other choice but to move assets for picks and tank which is what weltman did.

Every situation is different.

Masai for contrast was never going to tare down because he didnt trade any young future core players in kawhi trade and kept developing them after ie. og

But theres no doubt we should be stealth tanking this season for a chance to land scoot/wemby

[KL78192020]

While it's not the ideal range to be in. You can refill the cupboard with those slots

Demar at 9
Ross at 8
Jak 9

Realistically you can fill the bench or roster at any spot. But trading picks when you need them in the worst way isn't the way to go. Masai/Bobby need to start hitting on picks wherever they land. Our bench and development has been lacking in the worst way.

Oh I agree. I don't love the deal and I love Jacob. I hate dealing picks (especially with only top 6 protection) when your team has been bad.

Agreed. I'm a Jakob fan, but we have so many holes at the moment. It's a deal that could have been avoided. I'm just hoping for a FVV/OG trade for two reasons.

1. OG - To recoup draft picks and hopefully get another team to "tank" for us. Plus too many overlapping skillset's.
2. FVV - To reestablish an identity/playstyle. Our product on the court has been an eyesore for some time and it's just time.

On the surface I'm happy to have Jakob back. But the protections on that trade are severely lacking and it just compounded my initial feelings towards this team.

At this point it doesn’t make sense to trade OG for picks since Masai decided he wants to win now, they will probably keep OG or trade him for an established player. Trading OG for picks makes this team worse next year.

[ConSarnit]

The problem with a multi year tank is that even if you get really lucky and draft a great player, because you've stripped the roster down to basically nothing, it's very hard to build it back up again to the point where you're a contender.

It might take years just to get back to .500 let alone contention and great players nowadays get impatient very quickly. They will demand out and it typically happens in their next contract after their rookie deal. Forget about even winning a title, how many great players that were drafted with top picks actually stuck it out with their original team?

It seems that the best kind of tanks are the stealth tanks and those are one year tanks usually the result of major injuries. This way, you can add a great young player to your existing core.

Exactly what happened with Cleveland and Lebron. He was dragging a bunch of dead weight and even a GOAT couldn't win a title with that bunch. He had to leave, they had to reset with a bunch of high picks to then build around him.

I'm not in favor of multi-year tanking, however, here are the reasons why the Cavs lost Lebron (the first time):
-Drafted Luke Jackson with the 10th pick in 04 (the year after drafting Lebron)
-didn't have first round pick after 04 until 06
-Blew their wad in guys like Larry Hughes in free agency,
-trading for an aging Shaq,
-let Carlos boozer walk with nothing in return

In fact, what the Cavs did was the opposite of tank, they refused to acquire draft picks to surround James with blue chip prospects, made short sighted moves for aging players who were on the decline, and the one guy who was a decent side kick (Boozer), walked from the team and thrived in Utah.

Cleveland was one of the worst run franchises in the league up until about 3 years ago. I'm not sure why people always use terribly run teams as a reason not to tank. Everyone acts like it's a single part equation. Tanking + good management = greater chance at success. We are one of the best drafting and development teams in the league so putting that to use makes sense. There is a huge difference between letting Rob Babcock make our draft picks or letting Masai make them.

Addressing other comments:

"years to get back to .500": this current team is 4 games under .500. We're not exactly tearing down a dynasty here.

"stealth tank": are there any other examples of this working outside of Tim Duncan? Scottie is TBD. I don't think the Warriors are overly thrilled with their 2020 "stealth tank" considering Wiseman isn't even on the team anymore

"players demanding out": what star has demanded out while still on their 2nd contract? I can't think of anyone outside of Davis (who did it with half season left). If you can't build a team around a guy in 7 years you probably deserve to lose them.

[TorontoBarneys]

Poeltl felt like a back-up trade in case we couldn't acquire Claxton.
And even after the Poeltl acquisition, it felt like it required one more major trade going through to ensure we were legit. Never happened.

Masai is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place. They stated that this deadline helped them come away with concrete research on the value of all their pieces, but all it really did was show them that they overvalued these pieces themselves. Last season should be treated as a fluke. This franchise likely needs to take a step backwards first in order to go forwards later.

We need an influx of talent. No re-tool is going to make that happen. But now it's more grim than ever.

[Lord_Zedd]

If the team wants to "win" next year, they'll have to keep all their guys.

Saying they want to win, while selling off OG/Fred for a rebuild package isn't an indication that you want to win. Which makes the Poeltl trade even more dumber than ever.

But this is the downsides of being a capped out team without any draft picks to replenish your roster.

[Los_29]

Okay, so that's sort of one. They drafted the GOAT, he left. They then continued to tank. If Lebron doesnt' resign with them, they aren't relevant. Luckily he did and they had the assets from tanking to build around him.

Look at this.


How many of these teams actually 'tanked'. The Thunder? Sure.

The Spurs lost Robinson for a year.
Bulls? Nope?
Heat? Nope.
Lakers? Nope.
Warriors? Nope.
Bucks? Nope.
Rockets? Nope.
Jazz? Nope.
Nets? Nope.
Pistons? Nope.
Raptors? Nope.
Mavericks? Nope.

I'm up for getting a high draft pick and would be excited to team someone with Barnes. But there's just no evidence tanking works.

In those 29 years shown on your list, only a dozen have won a Championship. What this says is tank or not, it's hard to win a Championship, so the answer is going to be a low number in the first place.

A better question is of those Championship teams over 29 seasons, how many have won with at least one of the players they drafted being their top 2 players? By my count, it's only 2 teams: the 2004 Pistons (Prince was not top 2) and our 2019 Raptors (Siakam was not top 2, although that's arguable). The rest, like Kobe with LA, Duncan with SA, Dallas with Dirk, Bucks with Giannis, etc., won with a cornerstone player that they drafted.

So drafting a cornerstone player is a key prerequisite to being a Championship team. Stats also show that generally the higher you draft the better your chances of finding that cornerstone player (see here for example). Therefore you want to draft as high as possible. Thus teams tank.

But not all teams tank. And again, it doesn't seem like there is a direct correlation between tanking and team success.

The majority of teams winning titles didn't actively tank. Lakers didn't get Kobe from tanking, Bucks didn't get Giannis from tanking, etc etc.

The point being is that there are multiple avenues to get a title. Sure, you need that top 5-10 player, that cornerstone player. But when you go into a draft and tank, only ONE team gets that player. The rest are loser in the process.

And as the Cavs example. You can tank and get a GOAT...but you have to build around them.

Yep, and in most drafts that player isn't even there. There is a possibility that the last three NBA drafts will produce no superstars. So although there was great talent in two of those drafts (Ball, Haliburton, Edwards, Scottie, Mobley, Cade, Franz), none of them are likely going to end up as top 5 or top 10 players in this league.

So even if a team does get lucky in the lottery, there might not even be a player in the draft that can turn their franchise around.

[God Squad]

Oh I agree. I don't love the deal and I love Jacob. I hate dealing picks (especially with only top 6 protection) when your team has been bad.

Agreed. I'm a Jakob fan, but we have so many holes at the moment. It's a deal that could have been avoided. I'm just hoping for a FVV/OG trade for two reasons.

1. OG - To recoup draft picks and hopefully get another team to "tank" for us. Plus too many overlapping skillset's.
2. FVV - To reestablish an identity/playstyle. Our product on the court has been an eyesore for some time and it's just time.

On the surface I'm happy to have Jakob back. But the protections on that trade are severely lacking and it just compounded my initial feelings towards this team.

At this point it doesn’t make sense to trade OG for picks since Masai decided he wants to win now, they will probably keep OG or trade him for an established player. Trading OG for picks makes this team worse next year.

Good young player and picks are the believed asking price. It is believed most teams offered picks, but no good young player. But it's all speculation at this point. But I do believe the asking price is fair and isn't unbelievable.

[OakleyDokely]

"years to get back to .500": this current team is 4 games under .500. We're not exactly tearing down a dynasty here.

I mean, doing a Rocket style rebuild where you tear it down to the studs is going to take longer to build back up.

"stealth tank": are there any other examples of this working outside of Tim Duncan? Scottie is TBD. I don't think the Warriors are overly thrilled with their 2020 "stealth tank" considering Wiseman isn't even on the team anymore

Most tank jobs are teams that start out trying to win but then give up towards the end. It might not result in a top 5 pick, but the Warriors got Curry at 7 doing it.

""players demanding out": what star has demanded out while still on their 2nd contract? I can't think of anyone outside of Davis (who did it with half season left). If you can't build a team around a guy in 7 years you probably deserve to lose them.

AD forced a trade. Paul demanded out. PG forced a trade when he said he wouldn't re-sign with the Pacers. KD, Lebron just walked after their 2nd contracts expired. Stars have all the leverage and if they don't like the direction, they either force a trade or just leave as FAs.

[wegotthabeet]

You can make an argument that they did tank. They had 3 out of 4 seasons where they won less than 30 games. They probably started out those seasons trying to be competitive but at some point the writing was on the wall and they must have decided to just get a pick as high in the lottery as possible. In that 4 year span they drafted 7th twice, and 11th once.

But they weren't tanking and if you remember what they were doing. Look at their roster.

Those picks aren't too far off where we're at right now. Also where we were at when we drafted Ross, Derozan, Ed Davis, etc....

They shouldn't be a the poster child for what this thread wants. They just drafted really well.

No one in this thread wants the exact same thing. Everyone is different.

I want to see Fred gone and we tank rest of this year to draft a high end prospect. Next year we run Poeltl+Pascal+Scottie+OG+new prospect with GTJ re-signed coming off the bench.

that sounds like exactly what i want too. realistically this team is finishing the season with 35 to 42 wins and at best an 8th or 9th seed. i'm hoping they fall to 11th in the east which puts them at around the 8th pick. with the current odds they can easily move up or find some excellent prospect in the top 10.

also to the above posters. golden state tanked to keep the 7th pick in 2012. hence the coin toss ross nickname. if they lost that coin toss they would have given the 8th pick to Utah.