Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

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Ugalde
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#201 » by Ugalde » Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:59 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

And what exactly have you added other than a crappy comment?

I was being sincere. Do you not think the arguments you have been putting up are compelling?



Everybody has their right to an opinion and i share mine. Doesnt mean everyone has to agree with me. Nobody is gonna change anybodys opinion on here regardless. There will never be a consensus goat for the nba.

what? there has been a consensus goat for awhile. mj. it’ll stay that way till someone passes him. no one has been able yet
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#202 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:06 am

JordansBulls wrote:Switching teams joining two other top 10 players in the league. Lebron did that in 2011 and 2015 and then joined another top 5 player in AD in 2020 including 2021 with Russell Westbrook. Steph only had another top 5 player once.
Guys who are GOATS when for the franchise that drafted them and turn them into a dynasty. Montana, Brady, MJ, Ruth to name a few. Franchise that never won prior to them.


You're really trying hard to get around what actually happened imo. The Warriors(including Steph) did without a doubt stack the deck heavily in their favor for 3 years. Calling Bosh a top 10 player in 2011 is a stretch but if that's what you gotta do then w/e as well as Kyrie in 2015. As a Cavs fan I know how Kyrie was regarded then and it wasn't top 10. He as an all star who had never made an all nba team nor gotten any mvp votes. You're just moving goalposts around enough to make it seem like you're making good sense. According to you Kareem could never be a goat either he left Mil and went to the Lakers. Same as for Wilt. Furthermore, if MJ hadn't signed his 8 yr deal and left to win rings somewhere else absolutely no one on here would be trying to make the 'have to make a dynasty on the team that drafted you' argument right now. It wouldn't exist at all and people saying 'Russell did it on the team that drafted him' would be laughed at.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#203 » by OhayoKD » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:07 am

It seems I've been summoned! :o
twyzted wrote: that ohayokd seems to have some weird issue with Jordan and since the numbers he refrences are locked behind a paywall i take them with a grain of salt, i want to be able to see them myself.

Unless I'm missing something, all the numbers I referenced are publicly available.

As Enig outlined, the bballref stats(which do the worst job predicting winning for fwiw) lean MJ in the rs and favor Lebron in the playoffs. And far as data goes, that's about the best it gets for his airness.
Salieri wrote:This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

:love:
MavsDirk41 wrote:And im not sure what advanced arguments there are for lebron james that you are talking about. I really dont get your point.

Gusto1903 wrote:Theres not a single argument, other than longevity and versatility. And those dont even equal "better". Now his Point Total has come up, but that only underlines the longevity argument.

Here are some places to start(some stuff from me, some stuff from much smarter "others" :D ):

Peak/Prime statistical summary
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101574289#p101574289
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104201725#p104201725(box-only)
Impact vs Box
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103103056#p103103056
Peak/Prime Impact
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103585765#p103585765
Intangibles
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921&p=104338060#p104338060
Defense/Portability/Impact
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102650443#p102650443
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104342431#p104342431
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103591642#p103591642
Ceiling Raising
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104170483#p104170483
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104248279#p104248279
Era-Translation
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102962677#p102962677(passing only)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102784921#p102784921(mj today)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102812530#p102812530(LBJ in the 80's/90's)

TLDR: Lebron is flatly a significantly more impactful defender(as in he's more valuable in the rs in his 30's before major playoff elevation), matches Jordan in the box-stuff(despite it not accounting for defense), has an overwhelming advantage when we isolate for winning/impact(this stuff accounts for defense), remains as or more valuable in contexts which are theoretically sub-optimal(2005-2007, 2015, 2012, 2020), and is managing all this facing a more talented league/larger talent pool.

If you hone in on his second cleveland stint(where he still looks more valuable in the regular season), Lebron also sports a pretty big resiliency advantage seeing his defenses and offenses improve when they face better competition with his scoring/playmaking volume and efficiency effectively impervious against top defenses/offenses(including the warriors).

Lebron sees his stuff go up as a series progresses(Jordan's stats drop across the board), and Lebron is able to mantain his stronger regular season and postseason influence despite having significantly more milage.

All considered, I'd say there's a plethora of strong peak/prime based arguments to work with here covering everything from resume to well, you know, helping teams win. In fact, there are solid arguments for various players, even if we hone in on "peak/prime"(Russell and Kareem chief among them).

PS: The PC Board is fun. You should come down more often. :D
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#204 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:08 am

dc wrote:
Just as footnote in all of this: people forget that the Spurs coming off their 67 win season (franchise record) were also recruiting KD that summer. Lebron and the Warriors weren't the only ones trying to stack teams. IIRC, Pop and co. were also one of the teams who went to the Hamptons and had the whole sit down with him.


Coaches and front offices have no qualms about these sorts of things. It's when players want to do things that we call it stacking the deck as though they should just trust their front office even when its shown to be incompetent. Though I think players can take it too far but we'd never say the same thing about a front office.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#205 » by Ugalde » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:18 am

i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.

this isn’t an argument over who is the better player. it’s an argument over who dominated their era better. players are always going to get better. lebron should be a better player than jordan. their primes are like 10 years apart.

in 20 years the best player in the league is going to be better than lebron. players get better over time.

the question is who dominated what was in front of them the most. it’s undoubtedly jordan.

he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.

i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.

you can’t argue jordan’s teams were stacked because lebron evened that out by going and stacking his own teams. i don’t blame him. but he failed while doing it.

lebron is the greatest player i ever watched live besides maybe shaq. but he just didn’t dominate like jordan.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#206 » by Taj FTW » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:32 am

OhayoKD wrote:It seems I've been summoned! :o
twyzted wrote: that ohayokd seems to have some weird issue with Jordan and since the numbers he refrences are locked behind a paywall i take them with a grain of salt, i want to be able to see them myself.

Unless I'm missing something, all the numbers I referenced are publicly available.

As Enig outlined, the bballref stats(which do the worst job predicting winning for fwiw) lean MJ in the rs and favor Lebron in the playoffs. And far as data goes, that's about the best it gets for his airness.
Salieri wrote:This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

:love:
MavsDirk41 wrote:And im not sure what advanced arguments there are for lebron james that you are talking about. I really dont get your point.

Gusto1903 wrote:Theres not a single argument, other than longevity and versatility. And those dont even equal "better". Now his Point Total has come up, but that only underlines the longevity argument.

Here are some places to start(some stuff from me, some stuff from much smarter "others" :D ):

Peak/Prime statistical summary
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101574289#p101574289
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104201725#p104201725(box-only)
Impact vs Box
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103103056#p103103056
Peak/Prime Impact
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103585765#p103585765
Intangibles
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921&p=104338060#p104338060
Defense/Portability/Impact
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102650443#p102650443
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104342431#p104342431
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103591642#p103591642
Ceiling Raising
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104170483#p104170483
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104248279#p104248279
Era-Translation
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102962677#p102962677(passing only)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102784921#p102784921(mj today)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102812530#p102812530(LBJ in the 80's/90's)

TLDR: Lebron is flatly a significantly more impactful defender(as in he's more valuable in the rs in his 30's before major playoff elevation), matches Jordan in the box-stuff(despite it not accounting for defense), has an overwhelming advantage when we isolate for winning/impact(this stuff accounts for defense), remains as or more valuable in contexts which are theoretically sub-optimal(2005-2007, 2015, 2012, 2020), and is managing all this facing a more talented league/larger talent pool.

If you hone in on his second cleveland stint(where he still looks more valuable in the regular season), Lebron also sports a pretty big resiliency advantage seeing his defenses and offenses improve when they face better competition with his scoring/playmaking volume and efficiency effectively impervious against top defenses/offenses(including the warriors).

Lebron sees his stuff go up as a series progresses(Jordan's stats drop across the board), and Lebron is able to mantain his stronger regular season and postseason influence despite having significantly more milage.

All considered, I'd say there's a plethora of strong peak/prime based arguments to work with here covering everything from resume to well, you know, helping teams win. In fact, there are solid arguments for various players, even if we hone in on "peak/prime"(Russell and Kareem chief among them).

PS: The PC Board is fun. You should come down more often. :D

But bruh, rangz!
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#207 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:46 am

OhayoKD wrote:It seems I've been summoned! :o
twyzted wrote: that ohayokd seems to have some weird issue with Jordan and since the numbers he refrences are locked behind a paywall i take them with a grain of salt, i want to be able to see them myself.

Unless I'm missing something, all the numbers I referenced are publicly available.

As Enig outlined, the bballref stats(which do the worst job predicting winning for fwiw) lean MJ in the rs and favor Lebron in the playoffs. And far as data goes, that's about the best it gets for his airness.
Salieri wrote:This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

:love:
MavsDirk41 wrote:And im not sure what advanced arguments there are for lebron james that you are talking about. I really dont get your point.

Gusto1903 wrote:Theres not a single argument, other than longevity and versatility. And those dont even equal "better". Now his Point Total has come up, but that only underlines the longevity argument.

Here are some places to start(some stuff from me, some stuff from much smarter "others" :D ):

Peak/Prime statistical summary
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101574289#p101574289
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104201725#p104201725(box-only)
Impact vs Box
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103103056#p103103056
Peak/Prime Impact
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103585765#p103585765
Intangibles
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921&p=104338060#p104338060
Defense/Portability/Impact
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102650443#p102650443
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104342431#p104342431
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=103591642#p103591642
Ceiling Raising
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104170483#p104170483
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104248279#p104248279
Era-Translation
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102962677#p102962677(passing only)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102784921#p102784921(mj today)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=102812530#p102812530(LBJ in the 80's/90's)

TLDR: Lebron is flatly a significantly more impactful defender(as in he's more valuable in the rs in his 30's before major playoff elevation), matches Jordan in the box-stuff(despite it not accounting for defense), has an overwhelming advantage when we isolate for winning/impact(this stuff accounts for defense), remains as or more valuable in contexts which are theoretically sub-optimal(2005-2007, 2015, 2012, 2020), and is managing all this facing a more talented league/larger talent pool.

If you hone in on his second cleveland stint(where he still looks more valuable in the regular season), Lebron also sports a pretty big resiliency advantage seeing his defenses and offenses improve when they face better competition with his scoring/playmaking volume and efficiency effectively impervious against top defenses/offenses(including the warriors).

Lebron sees his stuff go up as a series progresses(Jordan's stats drop across the board), and Lebron is able to mantain his stronger regular season and postseason influence despite having significantly more milage.

All considered, I'd say there's a plethora of strong peak/prime based arguments to work with here covering everything from resume to well, you know, helping teams win. In fact, there are solid arguments for various players, even if we hone in on "peak/prime"(Russell and Kareem chief among them).

PS: The PC Board is fun. You should come down more often. :D



How about this? I watched both careers live, im 47. I dont need to look at metrics or any of the other stuff you are putting out there. James is top 3 for me and Jordan is the goat. I can list my reasons if you want but i developed my opinion the old fashoined way - i watched hundreds of games to come to my conclusion
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#208 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:50 am

Ugalde wrote:i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.

this isn’t an argument over who is the better player. it’s an argument over who dominated their era better. players are always going to get better. lebron should be a better player than jordan. their primes are like 10 years apart.

in 20 years the best player in the league is going to be better than lebron. players get better over time.

the question is who dominated what was in front of them the most. it’s undoubtedly jordan.

he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.

i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.

you can’t argue jordan’s teams were stacked because lebron evened that out by going and stacking his own teams. i don’t blame him. but he failed while doing it.

lebron is the greatest player i ever watched live besides maybe shaq. but he just didn’t dominate like jordan.



Jordans Bulls were not stacked lol, especially the first 3 peat. Other than Jordan and Pippen the Bulls had Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Livingston , Randy Brown, Paxson, and Bill Wennington. Thats stacked?
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#209 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:55 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Ugalde wrote:i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.

this isn’t an argument over who is the better player. it’s an argument over who dominated their era better. players are always going to get better. lebron should be a better player than jordan. their primes are like 10 years apart.

in 20 years the best player in the league is going to be better than lebron. players get better over time.

the question is who dominated what was in front of them the most. it’s undoubtedly jordan.

he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.

i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.

you can’t argue jordan’s teams were stacked because lebron evened that out by going and stacking his own teams. i don’t blame him. but he failed while doing it.

lebron is the greatest player i ever watched live besides maybe shaq. but he just didn’t dominate like jordan.



Jordans Bulls were not stacked lol, especially the first 3 peat. Other than Jordan and Pippen the Bulls had Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Livingston , Randy Brown, Paxson, and Bill Wennington. Thats stacked?


Hey man, I'm with you on MJ, but Randy Brown and BIll Wennington were second three-peat guys, not first.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#210 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:57 am

Ugalde wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:I was being sincere. Do you not think the arguments you have been putting up are compelling?



Everybody has their right to an opinion and i share mine. Doesnt mean everyone has to agree with me. Nobody is gonna change anybodys opinion on here regardless. There will never be a consensus goat for the nba.

what? there has been a consensus goat for awhile. mj. it’ll stay that way till someone passes him. no one has been able yet



Im not disagreeing that jordan is the goat but i dont think there will ever be a consensus that everyone agrees on
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#211 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:59 am

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
Ugalde wrote:i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.

this isn’t an argument over who is the better player. it’s an argument over who dominated their era better. players are always going to get better. lebron should be a better player than jordan. their primes are like 10 years apart.

in 20 years the best player in the league is going to be better than lebron. players get better over time.

the question is who dominated what was in front of them the most. it’s undoubtedly jordan.

he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.

i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.

you can’t argue jordan’s teams were stacked because lebron evened that out by going and stacking his own teams. i don’t blame him. but he failed while doing it.

lebron is the greatest player i ever watched live besides maybe shaq. but he just didn’t dominate like jordan.



Jordans Bulls were not stacked lol, especially the first 3 peat. Other than Jordan and Pippen the Bulls had Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Livingston , Randy Brown, Paxson, and Bill Wennington. Thats stacked?


Hey man, I'm with you on MJ, but Randy Brown and BIll Wennington were second three-peat guys, not first.



Lol been a long time! King, Buechler, Williams, Perdue….i get some of those guys mixed up man.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#212 » by Taj FTW » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:15 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Ugalde wrote:i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.

this isn’t an argument over who is the better player. it’s an argument over who dominated their era better. players are always going to get better. lebron should be a better player than jordan. their primes are like 10 years apart.

in 20 years the best player in the league is going to be better than lebron. players get better over time.

the question is who dominated what was in front of them the most. it’s undoubtedly jordan.

he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.

i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.

you can’t argue jordan’s teams were stacked because lebron evened that out by going and stacking his own teams. i don’t blame him. but he failed while doing it.

lebron is the greatest player i ever watched live besides maybe shaq. but he just didn’t dominate like jordan.



Jordans Bulls were not stacked lol, especially the first 3 peat. Other than Jordan and Pippen the Bulls had Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Livingston , Randy Brown, Paxson, and Bill Wennington. Thats stacked?

Isn't your whole thing that you watched them with your own eyes and vividly remember things well enough to rank them? You can't even get the players on the team right :lol:

You say they weren't stacked. The last championship of the 1st 3-peat, they won 57 games. The next season without Jordan they won 55 games. That's not a great supporting cast?
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#213 » by Salieri » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:19 am

OhayoKD wrote:PS: The PC Board is fun. You should come down more often. :D


Are you sure you want that? :lol:

Let's all remember Doctor MJ's wise words, immortalized in NO-KG-AI's signature:
I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"


No RealGM subforum suffers this kind of behavior less often than the PC board. I know it sounds elitist (I don't include myself, I only read and don't participate for a reason), but opening the floodgates to the "undefeated in the Finals is what matters", the "Kawhi stopped Giannis on his own during the '19 Raptors run", the "stats are overrated, I watch the games and I know better" or the "Jokic got exposed in the playoffs" squads has the risk of turning the PC board into a clone of the General Board. And each board has its own identity and its purposes, both equally important to enjoying the RGM experience.


Ugalde wrote:i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.


You forgot to add "in my opinion". And that's all well and good, really. If you think the debate is over, nothing is stopping you from moving on. The only thing you need to do is not open these kind of threads. But forcing others to stop their conversations because of your own personal conclusion is not "all well and good".

Ugalde wrote:he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.


This part will be relevant in a second.

Ugalde wrote:i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.


If you don't blame LeBron for Cleveland sucking, how come you count rings (a team achievement) against him? Shouldn't you be looking for a more accurate method of quantifying LeBron's impact and talent without leaning on variables such as teammates and/or rivals?

Also, your statement that LeBron constantly joined the best players in the league is highly debatable. If you don't believe me, please make a list of the top 5 players in the league each year, starting on 2011 which is when he changed teams for the first time. Let's see how many times one of those players was on his team. And please, focus on performance for each year, not name recognition. I know Wade was a huge name, but 2013 Wade wasn't close to his peak level (sadly for all of us, one of the great "What if" stories of the last 15 years: an injury-free Wade with longevity = sky is the limit).
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#214 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:21 am

Taj FTW wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
Ugalde wrote:i don’t know how the jordan vs lebron debate is even a thing anymore. mj won clearly.

this isn’t an argument over who is the better player. it’s an argument over who dominated their era better. players are always going to get better. lebron should be a better player than jordan. their primes are like 10 years apart.

in 20 years the best player in the league is going to be better than lebron. players get better over time.

the question is who dominated what was in front of them the most. it’s undoubtedly jordan.

he won 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 years. lebron won 4 rings and 4 mvps in 20 years.

i don’t hold lebron changing teams against him. if cleveland sucked it’s not his fault. but i do hold the fact that he hasn’t been able to attain as much team success while constantly joining the best players in the league on different teams.

you can’t argue jordan’s teams were stacked because lebron evened that out by going and stacking his own teams. i don’t blame him. but he failed while doing it.

lebron is the greatest player i ever watched live besides maybe shaq. but he just didn’t dominate like jordan.



Jordans Bulls were not stacked lol, especially the first 3 peat. Other than Jordan and Pippen the Bulls had Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Livingston , Randy Brown, Paxson, and Bill Wennington. Thats stacked?

Isn't your whole thing that you watched them with your own eyes and vividly remember things well enough to rank them? You can't even get the players on the team right :lol:

You say they weren't stacked. The last championship of the 1st 3-peat, they won 57 games. The next season without Jordan they won 55 games. That's not a great supporting cast?



Did those players i mentioned not play for the Bulls? Prove to me they never played for the Bulls. I got the years wrong. Lol lol lol

They had 2 allstars in Jordan and Pippen. They had the same coaching staff all those years and had grown accustomed to playing together for several years. Plus they ran the triangle offense so everbody touched the ball. They didnt have a ball dominate player who had to control the ball. What else do you have?
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#215 » by michaelm » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:24 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Switching teams joining two other top 10 players in the league. Lebron did that in 2011 and 2015 and then joined another top 5 player in AD in 2020 including 2021 with Russell Westbrook. Steph only had another top 5 player once.
Guys who are GOATS when for the franchise that drafted them and turn them into a dynasty. Montana, Brady, MJ, Ruth to name a few. Franchise that never won prior to them.


You're really trying hard to get around what actually happened imo. The Warriors(including Steph) did without a doubt stack the deck heavily in their favor for 3 years. Calling Bosh a top 10 player in 2011 is a stretch but if that's what you gotta do then w/e as well as Kyrie in 2015. As a Cavs fan I know how Kyrie was regarded then and it wasn't top 10. He as an all star who had never made an all nba team nor gotten any mvp votes. You're just moving goalposts around enough to make it seem like you're making good sense. According to you Kareem could never be a goat either he left Mil and went to the Lakers. Same as for Wilt. Furthermore, if MJ hadn't signed his 8 yr deal and left to win rings somewhere else absolutely no one on here would be trying to make the 'have to make a dynasty on the team that drafted you' argument right now. It wouldn't exist at all and people saying 'Russell did it on the team that drafted him' would be laughed at.

AD joining LeBron at the Lakers was malodorous imo, given he forced his way out of an existing contract with multiple years remaining when he was a client of LeBron’s player agency.

Otherwise LeBron can do whatever he likes when he is a Free Agent, but so can Durant, and LeBron fans in particular trying to argue that what the 2 players did was substantively different is what I personally dispute. Sure GSW were a better TEAM with a roster with better fit who played an ensemble game which is imo superior to the heliocentric game most of LeBron’s teams have played, although he and a healthy AD playing together was a thing of beauty which duly resulted in the 2020 title. It isn’t unfair or against the rules of the NBA to beat a LeBron team with team play as far as I am aware however, something the San Antonio Spurs did as well.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#216 » by Taj FTW » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:26 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Taj FTW wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:

Jordans Bulls were not stacked lol, especially the first 3 peat. Other than Jordan and Pippen the Bulls had Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Livingston , Randy Brown, Paxson, and Bill Wennington. Thats stacked?

Isn't your whole thing that you watched them with your own eyes and vividly remember things well enough to rank them? You can't even get the players on the team right :lol:

You say they weren't stacked. The last championship of the 1st 3-peat, they won 57 games. The next season without Jordan they won 55 games. That's not a great supporting cast?



Did those players i mentioned not play for the Bulls? Prove to me they never played for the Bulls. I got the years wrong. Lol lol lol

They had 2 allstars in Jordan and Pippen. They had the same coaching staff all those years and had grown accustomed to playing together for several years. Plus they ran the triangle offense so everbody touched the ball. They didnt have a ball dominate player who had to control the ball. What else do you have?

You say the supporting cast wasn't good, but they won literally 2 fewer games without Jordan the next season. That supporting cast lost a GOAT player and still won 55 games. How is that not a stacked supporting cast?

Remember when LeBron's Cavs went 61-21, then he left the team and they went 19-63 the next season? I do.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#217 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:35 am

OhayoKD wrote:It seems I've been summoned! :o


Man, I appreciate the time and effort you guys put into all this stuff, I really do, but sometimes I see things just make me question whether I can trust any of it. In one of the threads you linked above, I saw this statement:

Impact stuff looks at how MJ's presence correlates with the Bulls' defense getting better or worse and concludes that Jordan isn't on par(or paticularly close) to even second tier defenders like Kareem, Kawhi, Lebron, and Pippen.


Put aside the conclusion about MJ stated there. This sentence states that these impact metrics(it didn't state specifically which metrics) conclude that Scottie Pippen - universally regarded as one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever - is a second tier defender. You argue in that same paragraph that box stats grading Bill Russell out as a role player should be a red flag, but can you see why something like this might be a red flag the other way? I'd love to know exactly what numbers are being referred to with the Pippen thing.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#218 » by Taj FTW » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:37 am

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:It seems I've been summoned! :o


Man, I appreciate the time and effort you guys put into all this stuff, I really do, but sometimes I see things just make me question whether I can trust any of it. In one of the threads you linked above, I saw this statement:

Impact stuff looks at how MJ's presence correlates with the Bulls' defense getting better or worse and concludes that Jordan isn't on par(or paticularly close) to even second tier defenders like Kareem, Kawhi, Lebron, and Pippen.


Put aside the conclusion about MJ stated there. This sentence states that these impact metrics(it didn't state specifically which metrics) conclude that Scottie Pippen - universally regarded as one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever - is a second tier defender. You argue in that same paragraph that box stats grading Bill Russell out as a role player should be a red flag, but can you see why something like this might be a red flag the other way? I'd love to know exactly what numbers are being referred to with the Pippen thing.

I wonder if "top tier" defenders are guys like Hakeem and Mutombo? The absolute peak defensive centers, having an impact that a wing defender simply can't have due to the position difference.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#219 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:39 am

michaelm wrote:AD joining LeBron at the Lakers was malodorous imo, given he forced his way out of an existing contract with multiple years remaining when he was a client of LeBron’s player agency.

Otherwise LeBron can do whatever he likes when he is a Free Agent, but so can Durant, and LeBron fans in particular trying to argue that what the 2 players did was substantively different is what I personally dispute. Sure GSW were a better TEAM with a roster with better fit who played an ensemble game which is imo superior to the heliocentric game most of LeBron’s teams have played, although he and a healthy AD playing together was a thing of beauty which duly resulted in the 2020 title. It isn’t unfair or against the rules of the NBA to beat a LeBron team with team play as far as I am aware however, something the San Antonio Spurs did as well.


I do think KD joining a 73 team where he isn't even the center piece of it is different than forming basically a whole new team where things like chemistry and lack of depth are major things to be done which is what LeBron had to do each time he moved. I am not seeing the relevance of the bolded part to anything I said either. It just seems weirdly out of place to me.
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Re: Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT 

Post#220 » by eyeatoma » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:41 am

HotRocks34 wrote:The poll was done after LeBron became the all-time scoring leader last week.

The pollster is Public Policy Polling, and they spoke with 1,056 registered voters. See the last paragraph at this link:

https://www.publicpolicypolling.com/polls/a-happy-valentines-day-for-joe-biden/

On a less serious note PPP once again tested whether people think Michael Jordan or LeBron James is the greatest basketball player of all time in the wake of James breaking the all time scoring record last week. And despite that record it’s still not competitive- Jordan wins out 58-15. It was 77-14 in 2015 so James’ success over the last eight years has led to a little more ambiguity on the question but MJ still has the clear advantage.


Sorry to break it to you, but they're not wrong.

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