NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 3)

[AleksandarN]

So you agree the only reason Jokic is in front because he missed less games. Because best record in the league while being without no 2 on offense most of the year should be more than enough for winning MVP.

Jokic contributed to more wins than Giannnis. Bucks record without Giannis is better than Nuggets without Jokic. Jokic plays without any all star. Without any other player in contention for dpoy like Giannis has with Lopez and Holiday. And you are the one bringing up supporting cast with regards to Middleton. Lol

Bucks without Giannis were most against lottery teams. Nuggets without Jokic were more against playoff teams. Both had the result in these games you can expect. Jokic played more games. That's it.

I bring up the supporting cast because I read about it for 2 years. But for someone not called Jokic it can't be used?

Now all other Denver starters are useless? And Lopez is better than the Denver starters? Guess what, Lopez doesn't play much at the end of close games.
So many excuses all the time. It's kind of sad. Jokic is great but some of his fans are awful.

I never said they were useless. Where did I say denver players are useless. Look at my posts I have defended Murray several times. Now would I rather have holiday than murray. A 100 times yes. Bucks have a better team than Denver.

[AleksandarN]

I have nuggets and bucks in the finals. Let’s see who gets FMVP. I hope jokic which means he wins. Love small market teams succeeding. Screw the big markets

[Wolfgang630]

At this point I need Jokic vs Giannis in the Finals

[Magic Giannison]

Heres an interesting numbers game about TS%.

Rudy Gobert had a 70% TS in 2019-20 averaging 15.1 points on 8.2 FGA

Jokic this year is posting a 70% TS% averaging 24.6 on 14.8 FGA (lowest or 2nd lowest since he became a star)

Giannis this year is posting 60% TS% averaging 31.3 on 20.7 FGA ( highest in his career)

Jokic efficiency rose while shooting 2.9 less shots on average compared to last year where he had 66%TS.


Compared to last year Jokic raw production fell hence why his efficiency rose.

This however doesn't make Jokic last year better because his raw production dropped but because a portion of it translated into him playmaking and passing more when his roster is much healthier.



This one of example on how taking advanced stats and especially TS% and trying to single it out but itself its either misleading because Jokic just shifted his game into different focus while dropping usage by 4 %, rebounding and raw scoring.


This is why when i see people freaking out about 70% TS it means absolutely nothing.

This is why when i see people saying that Giannis is having a down year is flat out wrong.

For the record, i do believe Jokic this year is better than last year.

[Magic Giannison]

People embarrass themselves by calling other people names because they don’t agree with their point of view.

I would suggest you go a page back and see him trying to call me out when i've already explained my response multiple times and then he double downs.

If you or anyone in here cannot accept facts and start reading selectively thinking that everyone is after your favorite player to discredit them then its not my problem but yours.

next time id suggest that person to first read and follow up the conversation before jumping in and call someone out.


Bonus:

Read on Twitter

These aren't point of views, these are basketball facts.

You know my view on plus minus metric.

Yes i do, dont worry .

[AleksandarN]

I would suggest you go a page back and see him trying to call me out when i've already explained my response multiple times and then he double downs.

If you or anyone in here cannot accept facts and start reading selectively thinking that everyone is after your favorite player to discredit them then its not my problem but yours.

next time id suggest that person to first read and follow up the conversation before jumping in and call someone out.


Bonus:

Read on Twitter

These aren't point of views, these are basketball facts.

You know my view on plus minus metric.

Yes i do, dont worry .

Why would I worry

[Sharkboy242]

This is why when i see people freaking out about 70% TS it means absolutely nothing.

I acknowledge everything you said prior to this but your conclusion here is just flat out wrong. It would mean nothing if player in question was scoring 10-15 ppg... but when you filter it out for player scoring over 24 PPG Jokic stands alone. It's literally historic and it's not unimpressive because his overall usage and production fell a little. Just because you say it's not impressive doesn't make it so lol.

[DutchManDanFan]

So you agree the only reason Jokic is in front because he missed less games. Because best record in the league while being without no 2 on offense most of the year should be more than enough for winning MVP.

Not when a center is averaging a triple-double organically, while being 33rd in usage rate, and scoring 25 a game on 70% freakin' TS. Let's be real, the most you can argue is that Giannis is not without merit, but you guys do not argue that. You guys are arguing that Jokic does not deserve the award, which is asinine. He is having what's most likely the greatest regular season ever on the offensive end, and it's likely not very close.

Jokic deserves the award, but Giannis deserves it more. He leads his team to a better record and missed his sidekick on offense for 2/3 of the season. Triple double average is sexy, but not unique. It's done before. And don't say it's more special for a center. A guard that gets 10 boards a game is just as special as a center with 10 assists.

Jokic is really great. But so is Giannis. The Jokic stans can't admit someone else might be just as valuable. Or maybe even more valuable. It's easier if you watch every Bucks game. But ofcourse you don't do that.
There's a reason Bucks fans joined the discussion here again after some time. Giannis is better than ever. On both sides. And now we have the best record. Jrue is great but Jokic has better offensive players around him. He gets help as well.
It's difficult to compare the 2. But best record and missing a key player for 2/3 of the season should make it an easy choice. If only he didn't have to worry about his knee.

[Cubbies2120]

So you agree the only reason Jokic is in front because he missed less games. Because best record in the league while being without no 2 on offense most of the year should be more than enough for winning MVP.

Not when a center is averaging a triple-double organically, while being 33rd in usage rate, and scoring 25 a game on 70% freakin' TS. Let's be real, the most you can argue is that Giannis is not without merit, but you guys do not argue that. You guys are arguing that Jokic does not deserve the award, which is asinine. He is having what's most likely the greatest regular season ever on the offensive end, and it's likely not very close.

They both deserve the award thats the whole point of arguing about it. A lot of people just don't take TS% as a gospel to consider someone for the best offense ever which is wrong in my opinion on many levels.

There is major statistical evidence that higher usage impacts efficiency negativity because the increased production doesn't translate into taking best shots.Hence why vast majority of players have dropped their efficiency in the playoffs when their usages increase

- TS% alone is not gospel for being the "best offense ever", because it ALONE lacks context...there are people who shot 70%+ TS in a season before, but the context is that none of them averaged more than 12ppg...Jokic is scoring double that, while also maintaining efficiency that people who get only open dunks have maintained in the past. Now add onto that how he increases his entire team's efficiency and puts them into position to score at incredible clips...THAT, when packaged together, is what people are referring to as the best offense - TS% alone? Nope. PPG? Nah, Assists? Nope, but the combination of all of those...

Same concept but flipped to defensive end for Giannis - he's not a great defender because he blocks a lot of shots, or gets a lot of steals, but a combination of his situational awareness, ability to defend many positions, while still putting up dominant numbers on the defensive end. It's a combo of all of that.

[AleksandarN]

So you agree the only reason Jokic is in front because he missed less games. Because best record in the league while being without no 2 on offense most of the year should be more than enough for winning MVP.

Not when a center is averaging a triple-double organically, while being 33rd in usage rate, and scoring 25 a game on 70% freakin' TS. Let's be real, the most you can argue is that Giannis is not without merit, but you guys do not argue that. You guys are arguing that Jokic does not deserve the award, which is asinine. He is having what's most likely the greatest regular season ever on the offensive end, and it's likely not very close.

Jokic deserves the award, but Giannis deserves it more. He leads his team to a better record and missed his sidekick on offense for 2/3 of the season. Triple double average is sexy, but not unique. It's done before. And don't say it's more special for a center. A guard that gets 10 boards a game is just as special as a center with 10 assists.

Jokic is really great. But so is Giannis. The Jokic stans can't admit someone else might be just as valuable. Or maybe even more valuable. It's easier if you watch every Bucks game. But ofcourse you don't do that.
There's a reason Bucks fans joined the discussion here again after some time. Giannis is better than ever. On both sides. And now we have the best record. Jrue is great but Jokic has better offensive players around him. He gets help as well.
It's difficult to compare the 2. But best record and missing a key player for 2/3 of the season should make it an easy choice. If only he didn't have to worry about his knee.

Who are the jokic stans? Is everyone who is making points for jokic as mvp stans?

[Magic Giannison]

This is why when i see people freaking out about 70% TS it means absolutely nothing.

I acknowledge everything you said prior to this but your conclusion here is just flat out wrong. It would mean nothing if player in question was scoring 10-15 ppg... but when you filter it out for player scoring over 24 PPG Jokic stands alone. It's literally historic and it's not unimpressive because his overall usage and production fell a little. Just because you say it's not impressive doesn't make it so lol.

It isn't, that's the reason why i brought Gobert and then Giannis to showcase a difference of 6 shots between players then volume and usage compared to their efficiency .

Nobody considers Gobert a good offensive player despite being crazy efficient while being a bad FT shooter

Jokic isnt scoring better than last year, he is just playing differently and doesn't focus on raw production as much as team basketball which is why he is better in my opinion than last year not because of is efficiency .

Im not trying to dismiss Jokic efficiency i am just explaining on why it went up and how its very similar to last year.

This 70% TS doesnt make Jokic from a great offensive season he had last year to TOP 5 offensive season ever for example as some people argue that.


His biggest case for MVP is him paying a much better team basketball which correlation with him having better teammates to last year.

[Cubbies2120]

Jokic deserves the award, but Giannis deserves it more. He leads his team to a better record and missed his sidekick on offense for 2/3 of the season. Triple double average is sexy, but not unique. It's done before. And don't say it's more special for a center. A guard that gets 10 boards a game is just as special as a center with 10 assists.

Jokic is really great. But so is Giannis. The Jokic stans can't admit someone else might be just as valuable. Or maybe even more valuable. It's easier if you watch every Bucks game. But ofcourse you don't do that.
There's a reason Bucks fans joined the discussion here again after some time. Giannis is better than ever. On both sides. And now we have the best record. Jrue is great but Jokic has better offensive players around him. He gets help as well.
It's difficult to compare the 2. But best record and missing a key player for 2/3 of the season should make it an easy choice. If only he didn't have to worry about his knee.

Giannis has the best record because his team is capable of winning at a rate that puts them 8th best in NBA when GIannis is out. If Jokic's team won without him at that rate, they're the #1 seed in the NBA right now. So take that best record argument elsewhere, because a good chunk of it currently is based on games where Giannis sat to load manage (almost 20% of his games so far this season...)

Lol @ the argument of "It's special for a guard to get 10 boards" without context again. For Westbrook, < 25% of his boards were contested. For Jokic those same 10 boards are 48% contested. I feel really bad if I need to explain to you the difference there.

Same thing with Jokic averaging 10 assists a game while having the ball in his hands for less than half the time Westbrook did....

I feel like I'm getting trolled because it's just impossible that someone doesn't understand the difference there. If that's the case, touceh...if not...oh boy.

[Cubbies2120]

This 70% TS doesnt make Jokic from a great offensive season he had last year to TOP 5 offensive season ever for example as some people argue that.

Nobody is arguing it's the TS% alone. It's a combination of multiple factors as I outlined in the other post. His impact offensively via his:
Efficiency (TS%)
Volume (25ppg)
Team efficiency (TS% increase of his teammates when they play with him) - Don't just look at his on-off, but compare it to other superstars supporting casts...which other superstars make every role player shoot 62+% TS% when sharing the court?

[Magic Giannison]

Not when a center is averaging a triple-double organically, while being 33rd in usage rate, and scoring 25 a game on 70% freakin' TS. Let's be real, the most you can argue is that Giannis is not without merit, but you guys do not argue that. You guys are arguing that Jokic does not deserve the award, which is asinine. He is having what's most likely the greatest regular season ever on the offensive end, and it's likely not very close.

They both deserve the award thats the whole point of arguing about it. A lot of people just don't take TS% as a gospel to consider someone for the best offense ever which is wrong in my opinion on many levels.

There is major statistical evidence that higher usage impacts efficiency negativity because the increased production doesn't translate into taking best shots.Hence why vast majority of players have dropped their efficiency in the playoffs when their usages increase

- TS% alone is not gospel for being the "best offense ever", because it ALONE lacks context...there are people who shot 70%+ TS in a season before, but the context is that none of them averaged more than 12ppg...Jokic is scoring double that, while also maintaining efficiency that people who get only open dunks have maintained in the past. Now add onto that how he increases his entire team's efficiency and puts them into position to score at incredible clips...THAT, when packaged together, is what people are referring to as the best offense - TS% alone? Nope. PPG? Nah, Assists? Nope, but the combination of all of those...

Same concept but flipped to defensive end for Giannis - he's not a great defender because he blocks a lot of shots, or gets a lot of steals, but a combination of his situational awareness, ability to defend many positions, while still putting up dominant numbers on the defensive end. It's a combo of all of that.

Rudy Gobert which i pointed above had 69.99 TS % averaging 15.1 points.

For Jokic all i did i explained how he shifted his production compared to last year, thats why his efficiency rose by 4 % while he shoots nearly 3 shots less and his usage dropped by 4 % as well.

Jokic was already shooting at historical level that 4 % doesn't changes the overall scoring production he gives.

I think you guys underestimate how much better Jokic passing translates for is team this compared to last year THAT is what makes him better player because he made his already biggest strength to translate into more wins for his team.


As for Giannis and defense, unfortunately trying to calculate defense is so damn noisy as huge portion of defense doesn't translate into production like offense. I agree with you about blocks steals etc. and argue many times that Brook Lopez for example isn't better defender than Giannis or that Bucks defense would be the same with either of them. There is a reason why Brook Lopez became good defender with Milwaukee but thats a different talk all together.


EDIT: Hold up, Rudy Gobert last year had 15.6 ppg on 73 %TS ?

[AleksandarN]

.

[Inspektor1312]

At this point I need Jokic vs Giannis in the Finals

Would love to see it again. They went into OT this summer

Watch on YouTube

[Packbuckman]

This is why when i see people freaking out about 70% TS it means absolutely nothing.

I acknowledge everything you said prior to this but your conclusion here is just flat out wrong. It would mean nothing if player in question was scoring 10-15 ppg... but when you filter it out for player scoring over 24 PPG Jokic stands alone. It's literally historic and it's not unimpressive because his overall usage and production fell a little. Just because you say it's not impressive doesn't make it so lol.

Giannis TS% is down a little this year because of his slow start from ft line where he was fine tuning it when he was in the 50’s and his knee was bothering him more this year. But he’s just a better player this year and now the bucks are almost healthy with Middleton still on minutes restriction on this 16 gm win streak that enabled them to pass the jokic nuggets and Celtics for best record. And I guarantee that if Giannis keeps dominating and the bucks keep this up for the next 20 gms jokic is not winning his 3rd mvp it will be Giannis winning his 3rd because that will be the narrative more than any others. Sorry advance stat guys lol

[CharityStripe34]

At this point I need Jokic vs Giannis in the Finals

Would love to see it again. They went into OT this summer

Watch on YouTube

That was one of the best games I've seen in a long time. Them meeting in the Finals would be like that but with considerably more talented supporting casts. A classic battle of offense vs. defense.

[Sharkboy242]

This is why when i see people freaking out about 70% TS it means absolutely nothing.

I acknowledge everything you said prior to this but your conclusion here is just flat out wrong. It would mean nothing if player in question was scoring 10-15 ppg... but when you filter it out for player scoring over 24 PPG Jokic stands alone. It's literally historic and it's not unimpressive because his overall usage and production fell a little. Just because you say it's not impressive doesn't make it so lol.

Giannis TS% is down a little this year because of his slow start from ft line where he was fine tuning it when he was in the 50’s and his knee was bothering him more this year. But he’s just a better player this year and now the bucks are almost healthy with Middleton still on minutes restriction on this 16 gm win streak that enabled them to pass the jokic nuggets and Celtics for best record. And I guarantee that if Giannis keeps dominating and the bucks keep this up for the next 20 gms jokic is not winning his 3rd mvp it will be Giannis winning his 3rd because that will be the narrative more than any others. Sorry advance stat guys lol

Wow, Jokic is finished.

[Packbuckman]

I acknowledge everything you said prior to this but your conclusion here is just flat out wrong. It would mean nothing if player in question was scoring 10-15 ppg... but when you filter it out for player scoring over 24 PPG Jokic stands alone. It's literally historic and it's not unimpressive because his overall usage and production fell a little. Just because you say it's not impressive doesn't make it so lol.

Giannis TS% is down a little this year because of his slow start from ft line where he was fine tuning it when he was in the 50’s and his knee was bothering him more this year. But he’s just a better player this year and now the bucks are almost healthy with Middleton still on minutes restriction on this 16 gm win streak that enabled them to pass the jokic nuggets and Celtics for best record. And I guarantee that if Giannis keeps dominating and the bucks keep this up for the next 20 gms jokic is not winning his 3rd mvp it will be Giannis winning his 3rd because that will be the narrative more than any others. Sorry advance stat guys lol

Wow, Jokic is finished.

Well not yet there’s 20 gms left nothing is a given like people think that’s what I was saying it’s a lot closer now it will go to the end May the best man win