Was Jokic robbed of the MVP?

[WestGOAT]

It's hilarious, dude B on one hand says MVP is a regular season award, yet wants to use the playoff performance of the supporting squad as a reason why Jokic had a better supporting squad during the regular season(?!), despite them actually having a worse record without Jokic during the regular season.

The amount of mental hoops posters have to contrive themselve through would warrant gold at the special Olympics

I'm not using the playoffs.

Jokic was far superior to Embiid in the regular season, and, without nearly the supporting cast Jokic had.

Sorry I meant Poster A not B! My apologies!

I commend your patience with engaging people that simply ignore the evidence you provide, I mean it's not even possible to refute the 13-5 regular season record that Embiid's supporting cast had, while Jokic's squad went 5-8 without him, so ofc that is simply being ignored.

[lobosloboslobos]

I'll wait. It's just hilarious how overly sensitive Joker stans are that it's just impossible to think anyone other than him can have a season to warrant a MVP nod. While most of us agree LeBron should have had way more MVPs and Joker is worthy of having another, it doesn't mean guys like KD, Steph, Harden etc didn't earn theirs in that time just because LeBron was the better player and/or was better according to advanced stats etc.

That's how this goes but for some reason you guys are soooo butthurt that anyone so much as says that another guy was worthy of winning the award lol it's not that serious, nor is it a knock at Joker, ya'll need to chill tfo

Come on, the whole 'stan' thing is BS. Are the 80% of the people who answered Jokic in this poll all 'stans'? Or is it just the case that the vast majority of posters think you are wrong? You can't just call people 'stans' when they use solid facts to make a case. or when other people who observe your argument conclude that those stats are persuasive.

Personally I think it was mostly that most voters still didn't understand how much better Jokic is than Embiid and resisted the idea of giving this big lumbering guy who has never won anything 3 MVPs in a row. Now that they are actually watching Jokic play they are suddenly realizing they goofed. I mean you have actual mainstream ESPN/FOX reporters admitting they had never really watched Jokic enough to realize he was this good and this is AFTER he won 2 MVPS.

[ty 4191]

I'm not using the playoffs.

Jokic was far superior to Embiid in the regular season, and, without nearly the supporting cast Jokic had.

Sorry I meant Poster A not B! My apologies!

I commend your patience with engaging people that simply ignore the evidence you provide, I mean it's not even possible to refute the 13-5 regular season record that Embiid's supporting cast had, while Jokic's squad went 5-8 without him, so ofc that is simply being ignored.

That's going to be ignored by Embiid Stans, of course.

Jokic had the better regular season. And, it's not even close.

[rzzzzz]

Jokic is having a terrific playoff this year, no doubt. At this point it looks like him vs Jimmy for finals MVP.

Up until these past playoff series, the separation between Embiid and Jokic the past 3 years has been nil. Plus throw in the Freak. Up until this year’s playoffs, the argument could go either way, stats vs physical dominance. Hell, look at all the players coming out for Embiid just before the vote. And at the all star game. So it made sense to swing the award around between the very best players when one wasn’t Michael GOATing the league.

But congratulation to Jokic for his break through, which Embid definitely did not. No doubt, this will reward him in next year’s vote, all things equal.

[PhilBlackson]

I'll wait. It's just hilarious how overly sensitive Joker stans are that it's just impossible to think anyone other than him can have a season to warrant a MVP nod. While most of us agree LeBron should have had way more MVPs and Joker is worthy of having another, it doesn't mean guys like KD, Steph, Harden etc didn't earn theirs in that time just because LeBron was the better player and/or was better according to advanced stats etc.

That's how this goes but for some reason you guys are soooo butthurt that anyone so much as says that another guy was worthy of winning the award lol it's not that serious, nor is it a knock at Joker, ya'll need to chill tfo

Come on, the whole 'stan' thing is BS. Are the 80% of the people who answered Jokic in this poll all 'stans'? Or is it just the case that the vast majority of posters think you are wrong? You can't just call people 'stans' when they use solid facts to make a case. or when other people who observe your argument conclude that those stats are persuasive.

Personally I think it was mostly that most voters still didn't understand how much better Jokic is than Embiid and resisted the idea of giving this big lumbering guy who has never won anything 3 MVPs in a row. Now that they are actually watching Jokic play they are suddenly realizing they goofed. I mean you have actual mainstream ESPN/FOX reporters admitting they had never really watched Jokic enough to realize he was this good and this is AFTER he won 2 MVPS.

No I call them stans when they get all uppity and condescending for no reason as you did.

The award is a subjective thing and I've explained this multiple times now that the award is not always given to the better player and definitely wasn't always based on who had the better advanced stats or LeBron would have dominated the award for over a decade.

There are multiple players that are awarded for having a great individual/historic seasons as Embiid did (by having multiple 30+ppg seasons which hasn't been done as big man for what 30+ years?! lol) and even explained this to you by citing ironically his now former teammate (and imo he's the big man version of) James Harden. Were LeBron and even Steph better players, with better efficiency and better advanced stats that you could argue they had the better season?!? Of course! lol But Harden had crazy consecutive regular seasons and it wasn't end of the world or some "insult" to guys like LBJ or Curry that he won the award. This happens over and over in NBA history or Jordan would've won it year in and year out.

But for some reason Joker stans are so incredibly salty and butthurt if you don't say Jokic should've won it, they try to talk down to you as if you don't understand that Jokic is a fantastic player deserving of the award. Personally I understand when guys like Harden, Embiid, heck Barkley, Malone etc had won MVPs for having great seasons despite not being the best player in the league or being the advanced stat darling. That's just how the award goes so again you and many others can chill tfo lol it's not that serious.

[Prez]

I don’t think it was a historically egregious robbery or something, but I do think Jokic should’ve won.

I think it’s pretty obvious that Jokic winning the previous 2 MVPs and Embiid having none was a big contributing factor. So for Jokic, voter fatigue and also the reluctance many people had in giving a guy with no championships 3 straight MVPs. And for Embiid, there was a pretty big narrative push, almost a “he deserves one” sentiment that was pretty widespread, and also Embiid himself openly campaigning for it. So I think the narrative push in both directions was probably the biggest factor. Then you couple that with Denver being a little shaky to close the year, Embiid making a late push, and Embiid getting the better of them in their 1 H2H matchup.

That’s obviously not to say Embiid didn’t have an MVP-level season overall or that it was a complete joke of an MVP award or anything. I just personally think if you look exclusively at their RS performance/impact and take everything else out of the equation, and you don’t weigh the end of the season heavier than the rest of the season (which I don’t think you should, especially in the case of Denver who had the 1 seed locked up), Jokic probably should’ve won.

[Ballerhogger]

Robbed no . Embiid had great season by the numbers . Clearly Jokic is the better player though . Voters looked and Embiid numbers thought it was too good pass up.

[Sedale Threatt]

I never seen someone care about mvp so much lol...Jokic fans make this guy extremely unlikable

I had the exact opposite experience. There were a handful of Embiid zealots that made watching him go down in flames once again pretty damn satisfying.

[CraftylikeaFox]

I never seen someone care about mvp so much lol...Jokic fans make this guy extremely unlikable

You hate on everyone who isn’t a Knick

[Duke4life831]

I don’t think it was a historically egregious robbery or something, but I do think Jokic should’ve won.

I think it’s pretty obvious that Jokic winning the previous 2 MVPs and Embiid having none was a big contributing factor. So for Jokic, voter fatigue and also the reluctance many people had in giving a guy with no championships 3 straight MVPs. And for Embiid, there was a pretty big narrative push, almost a “he deserves one” sentiment that was pretty widespread, and also Embiid himself openly campaigning for it. So I think the narrative push in both directions was probably the biggest factor. Then you couple that with Denver being a little shaky to close the year, Embiid making a late push, and Embiid getting the better of them in their 1 H2H matchup.

That’s obviously not to say Embiid didn’t have an MVP-level season overall or that it was a complete joke of an MVP award or anything. I just personally think if you look exclusively at their RS performance/impact and take everything else out of the equation, and you don’t weigh the end of the season heavier than the rest of the season (which I don’t think you should, especially in the case of Denver who had the 1 seed locked up), Jokic probably should’ve won.

Word for word this is exactly how I view it. In the history of things, if we were to just look at Embiid's numbers and season resume compared to past MVP winners, his wouldnt stick out in a negative way. People would look at Embiid's season and think to themselves, "ya checks out".

But ya I think if you takeaway Jokic's past MVPs, I think he wins this one pretty easily. His team was the #1 seed, he played in more wins and had a better winning percentage than Embiid. Jokic flirted with a 25ppg triple double as a Center. He also did that while leading the league in TS% and in basically every catch-all advanced metric.

So ya I dont think you can call it a robbery when the guy who did win it had a legit MVP worthy season. But ya this was one of the more narrative based and heavy MVPs that I can remember. Because again, if Jokic hadnt have won a MVP yet, I think he wins this one pretty easily.

[MarcusBrody]

I think Embiid had an MVP worthy season, so I don't think it was egregious, but I do think Jokic should have won in a vacuum.

The one thing that annoyed me as someone who watched Jokic a lot during the regular season was how some narratives became omnipresent that just weren't factual, especially about Jokic's defense (and by extension Embiid's). Jokic isn't a bad defender, isn't easier than most other centers to exploit in the pick and role (save the truly elite guys like AD), but just plays defense in a somewhat different way than most centers (e.g. being much more likely to swipe than contest). He has good positioning, active hands, and some of the highest deflection numbers in the league.

I will concede that he didn't do himself any favors in the last month or so when Denver coasted into the playoffs often playing the type of defense their critics accuse them of, but it has been somewhat frustrating to watch media members who are supposed to be informed (and were part of the debate) parroting these things then actually watching multiple games in the playoffs and being "Wow, he's way better than I thought."

[slick_watts]

jokic had the better season. it's a regular season award but one of the reasons i've seen used to not award jokic was that a person who hasn't had any playoff success shouldn't 3-peat a mvp award. well, ok. now that looks stupid, huh.

anyway once the narrative machine got started with embiid it was over. same thing happened with derrick rose, who stole dwight howard's mvp. i'm sure if jokic had to choose between mvp and fmvp he'd choose the latter.

[Tha Cynic]

Imo this isn't even close. Jokic is clearly the better player and has the better season. This is again my opinion as someone who isn't a fan of either team but having seen both play a lot now. Jokic just plays in a way that makes everyone on his team better. Embiid is a more aggressive scorer. Jokic can do everything Embiid does but chooses to play more of a team game. Embiid does not see the floor the way Jokic does and definitely doesn't have anywhere near the vision.

[JayMKE]

Denver put their foot off the gas pedal and Jokic stats were down this year, him not getting MVP after not winning in the playoffs the last 2 seasons has precedence. As we've all been reminded over and over again that MVP is a regular season award. Jokic fan persecution complex is offputting especially since it is usually paired with being some sort of intolerant condescending evangelist about analytics and being reverse discriminated against. I'm sorry but shut the **** up, let people enjoy the guy as a player instead of sticking some agenda into everything.

[Pelly24]

I think any time it becomes more about narrative than what actually happened you can argue someone like Jokic got robbed. A 25-point triple double on 70 TS% and the NO. 1 seed is literally insane, and I wouldn't have believed it if you told me someone could average that.

What I love about the playoffs is that it's basically the validation grounds, no matter what people say. LeBron and MJ were the best players during the regular season, and then they were by a wide margin the best players in the playoffs. Jokic is similar to them in that way. I think he's the first *obvious* best player in the league since 2018 or 2020 LeBron. if things are close, he'll usually win, and he just has a way of beating your expectations in the most pivotal moments. His 13 BPM and .30 ws/48 and his averaging a 30-point triple double on great efficiency against good defenses in the playoffs is just further proof that he and Embiid shouldn't be compared. Really, Steph and KD never reached this level either.

Basically, thank God for the playoffs, we won't have to hear certain comparisons again, regardless of these sometimes less meaningful MVP selections.

[therealbig3]

Peak Jokic is going to be compared to peak LeBron/Jordan/Shaq/Wilt from now on imo, he’s that dominant and that good. So yeah, in that sense, he was robbed.

But Embiid had an amazing season, it’s really hard to take much away from it. He was obviously injured in the playoffs. Which basically defines him as a playoff performer at this point, he’s never going to be effective because he’s always going to be hurt…he hasn’t done anything to make us think otherwise. But regular season only? There’s a case to be made for Embiid, much like there was a case for guys like Magic and Barkley and Malone, or Durant and Curry, even though none of them were actually as good as Jordan/LeBron/Jokic.

[Salieri]

I never seen someone care about mvp so much lol...Jokic fans make this guy extremely unlikable

I had the exact opposite experience. There were a handful of Embiid zealots that made watching him go down in flames once again pretty damn satisfying.

I tried my best to stay objective, and not blame either player for whatever nonsense their respective fanbases parroted, since I can't picture Embiid or Jokic having any fault on what a bunch of people they don't even know have to say.

But yeah, it was ultimately more satisfying to see Jokic's case validated because Embiid fans were more obnoxious. And they were more obnoxious for one reason: they were wrong. The way I see it, you should be allowed to be a bit more stubborn if you're right, as a sign that you don't bow to peer pressure. Being stubborn while being wrong only signals you just don't listen to arguments.

Embiid is a great player. Jokic is just better.

Twenty years from now I highly doubt this debate will be alive, in the same way today nobody tries to argue that Ewing was better than Olajuwon. But that debate was very much alive between 86 and 94, just like the Embiid-Jokic has been alive these past years.

[iLLmatic860]

I never seen someone care about mvp so much lol...Jokic fans make this guy extremely unlikable

I had the exact opposite experience. There were a handful of Embiid zealots that made watching him go down in flames once again pretty damn satisfying.

watching Philly fans in shambles is always fun to watch so i agree

[Big J]

So you think that there is something so obvious that the talking point has been beaten to death on message boards and Twitter. But multiple NBA HCs and players are too dumb to realize to try it out in the playoffs where their jobs (at least for the HCs) are on the line?

Hell why wait for the playoffs, why isnt this the go to gameplan for every team when they face the Nuggets?

The one postseason he doesn’t play a HOF level guard(the privilege Embiid has his whole career) he is in the Finals. There is some truth to this after being eliminated by Paul, Lillard and Curry then suddenly going against Conley, Cameron Payne and Russell.

Yeah, lets just ignore Edwards, Booker and freaking LBJ. Because those players dont know what a PnR is... The truth is that Jokic was playing in the playoffs next to such defensive stalwarts such as Campazzo, Barton, Rivers and Morris so he had a snowballs chance in hell to defend anything. Im not saying that Jokic is some defensive god but he is much better than people give him credit. Big centers suck at defending in space and Jokic is not much different, but give him some help and he will surprise you at how good of a positional defender he is. His only true weakness is rim protection.

Edwards & Bookers coaches didn’t actually scheme to have Jokic attacked relentlessly like the Warriors did against him in the playoffs last year either. It doesn’t matter how good of defenders you have around you if the other team can exploit the bad one over and over.

[Woodsanity]

Jokic is having a terrific playoff this year, no doubt. At this point it looks like him vs Jimmy for finals MVP.

Up until these past playoff series, the separation between Embiid and Jokic the past 3 years has been nil. Plus throw in the Freak. Up until this year’s playoffs, the argument could go either way, stats vs physical dominance. Hell, look at all the players coming out for Embiid just before the vote. And at the all star game. So it made sense to swing the award around between the very best players when one wasn’t Michael GOATing the league.

But congratulation to Jokic for his break through, which Embid definitely did not. No doubt, this will reward him in next year’s vote, all things equal.

Jokic and Embiid have always been close in the RS with an edge to Jokic but in PS there has always been a BIG gap, the numbers all make this very clear, Embiid's scoring is far worse in the playoffs.
Now we can blame part of that due to injury. Embiid always gets hurt in the playoffs so his numbers go down but you can't attribute all that to injury....

Ton of players play through injury and play well. Hell a 38 lebron played great playing through injury.