What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Hitachi77]

This thread is full of cherry picked stats to support whichever bias each poster has. Generally speaking I think the Jordan fanboys have been worse, even citing Jordan’s hatred of losing as evidence he is better. A lot of us probably hate losing more than Kyrie, but that doesn’t move the needle at all when comparing our basketball skills to Kyrie. If you want to say LeBron hated losing less, so he quit on his team more, that’s fine, but I’m not seeing a lot of that, with examples and evidence.

All that said, LeBron has one big blemish on his resume, the 2011 finals. Without that, I think he would be considered the GOAT by most. His finals record would be 5-5 (let’s just assume everything else plays out the same way) and most wouldn’t be able to blame the rest of the finals losses on him. But because of that loss, it makes it easier to conflate all of his finals losses, especially when comparing him to Jordan, who pretty much has no blemishes on his record. Again, Jordan won when he was expected to, and lost when he was expected to. LeBron sometimes won and lost when he wasn’t expected to.

[WarriorGM]

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

Start enumerating all the numbers in favor of Curry over on the PC board and feel the temperature drop. They cannot exactly argue against the facts so they'll just censor instead. That's why it's an echo chamber over there. No one should be citing that groupthink forum except as an example of navel gazing on the internet.

Really? What I think happened is that the "numbers" people push for Steph turned out to strongly favor Lebron:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=106319069#p106319069
The "numbers" people are posting for Jordan are box-score aggregates with arbitrary weightings that only track the ends of possessions.

Here's the thing. If we shift the weightings...
https://web.archive.org/web/20150206043605/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html
(Jordan not top 3!!!!)

What ceiling raising is asking for is presumably data that ties to "making teams win more", and there, Jordan looks more like a peer of Magic and Hakeem than a big era-outlier:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107218620#p107218620

In some ways he stands out more during the second-three peat than his supposed "peak" which makes the --assumption-- that something like RAPM would prefer him during the first-three peat somewhat questionable,

You think I'm talking about RAPM? No. The numbers I'm thinking of are more wins in a year, less years to a championship, more top competition faced.

But now to RAPM: the list it produces does not make much sense. You have KG there and then you have Manu and Draymond. The PC board talks endlessly using RAPM but the few times I bothered to look no one has bothered to address this interesting bit but rather just accepts the RAPM list rather blindly even though RAPM is pretty much a black box.

Let me present a theory why: KG being high on RAPM lists support LeBron. That's why the PC board defends KG being a great great great. Everyone else kinds of rolls their eyes. KG is similar to LeBron. High RAPM from being on weak teams.

Now let's compare to Curry and Duncan. A history of winning on teams that were only thought of as good after-the-fact. But Manu and Draymond are there so RAPM fans just accept it that that explains everything: Curry and Duncan were simply lucky to have great teammates. But what should be more appreciated is that both Manu and Draymond being that high on RAPM lists is absolutely wild. RAPM supposedly segregates the contributions of each player. Both Manu and Draymond being in the top ten list tells me this is complete bunk.

With Manu earlier it was unlikely but he did lead a team to victory against Team USA but then to have Draymond the guy who captained a team to the bottom of the league standings? No this is like guys from the same team hitting the jackpot successively in a casino and not being suspicious that something weird is going on. But unsurprisingly the PC board is mute and is totally blind to the discrepancy.

More likely is that Curry and Duncan actually drive plus-minuses more than appreciated or can be captured by ridged regression analysis. Indeed the lists RAPM generates make less sense to me than simple raw plus-minus. It is certainly much easier to apprehend raw plus-minus. As are simple win records. When you have different people coming up with different RAPM results I have no idea why people use it with the assertiveness they do. Should we be surprised when a website that purported to calculate RAPM came out and listed Curry first ahead of LeBron that the PC board then started claiming it wasn't legitimate? But I don't see anyone presenting the formula for the supposed legitimate sources.

Indeed there are often priors involved and what we know of the priors used is they are usually biased against a player like Curry and biased for a player like LeBron. One can say then that these indicators are liable to overestimate a player like LeBron and underestimate a player like Curry. Makes a joke of trying to use these for ranking except in the most general sense.

[Ugalde]

Yea, AD greeted Bron at Staples when he signed with LA....

Edit: Love was in Cleveland to welcome the king, as well.

what does it matter if they were there when he got there or not? the point is jordan played 15 season and won 6 rings. lebron played 20 and has 4. the poster was saying jordan didn't win without pippen. lebron also didn't win without wade/chris bosh/kyrie/kevin love/anthony davis.

who cares if they went to the team after or before?

The truth cares. That's my point.

People want to lie and say he was traded to teams with AD and Love and they weren't already there.
I dislike liars and people who stretch the truth to sully someone's image but it's an American past time.

it has nothing to do with what were talking about. the point is the guy has had other superstars his whole career and won 4. jordan had pippen and won 6.

[ChipotleWest]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

Do you realize Jordan only played 3 years before they drafted Pippen? What did Lebron do in his first 3 years?

Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs
Beat mediocre Washington (42-40 record)

Jordan:
Made playoffs (lost to 59-23 Bucks team, #1 seed)
Made playoffs (lost to 67-15 Celtics team, #1 seed)
Made playoffs (lost to 59-23 Celtics team, #1 seed)

You nitpick stats but don't really look closely at them. Jordan had the tougher path. The East was brutal in the 80's, the East was largely awful during Lebron era. It's not oranges to oranges.

If I wanted to nitpick like you I could say Lebron missed the playoffs the first two seasons while Jordan didn't but largely who cares.

I think Lebron lovers want to use the fact that Lebron made the Finals in 2007 as a strong indicator he's the GOAT but they went through Washington, New Jersey and past their prime Detroit Pistons. I give him credit still because he didn't have a great roster, but he wasn't exactly beating world beaters either. Everyone gives Lebron a pass for getting swept in the Finals against a superior Spurs team (rightfully so) but Jordan was facing even better teams in the first round with no help.

The East was the Least during Lebron era now that he's in the West it's stronger than it was before.

[jerok]

James, Wade, and Bosh all made the allstar team together in Miami = 3 allstars

James, Irving, and Love all made the allstar team together in Cleveland = 3 allstars

When did Jordan play on a team with two other allstar players? Meaning Jordan, Pippen, and what player?

Answer that for me please….

So you're still going to continue to Ignore the times LeBron didn't have a super team and made it further than MJ did without Pippen and Phil and his stacked team?

Jordan didn't play with multiple all stars at the same time. But does that mean they weren't capable all star players.
So you telling me Kyrie, Harden, Butler not making all star this year make them bums? LOL, please answer. I know you won't though cause you're not built like that.

Tell me which teams Jordan played that were more stacked than his Bulls team?
I thought Jordan made players better? I guess not good enough for them to be on all star teams, seems like LeBron just sends his teammates to all star games playing with him. Not counting the players you keep mentioning, how bout Mo Will and Big Z? I guess those 2 are generational players right?

Also, how do we prove or disprove what kind of impact lebron james would have had on those Wizards teams? Can we actually prove what you are saying? If so how? Please explain…lll sit back and wait

We can simply base it on Facts. LeBron can do more with less than MJ. But like my first sentence you will ignore that he didn't have super teams and still made deep playoff Runs.

Now, let's use that same logic on you. How can you prove or disprove that MJ could of done more with AD on the wizards in a professional level? Knowing that he couldn't do anything without Pippen or Phil. Please I'd like to hear your thoughts with some examples on this, or are you just going to ignore it cause you got nothing?

Its like 18/19 and 21/22 seasons never happened…

Those happened for a fact,
18/19, Bron was injured for parts of it, they still didn't do anything when he came back.
21/22 no excuses with that team, just sad really.

But how about the non super teams LeBron took to deep playoff runs, first Cavs stint, 2018 Cavs, and this years Lakers?
You going to ignore those as well?

Doesn’t require deep analysis, just half a brain.

Wade was shot and 32.

Kyrie was what, 24? And on the rise and love was entering his prime.

The facts above do not discredit what he achieved in Cleveland, amazing ring. Just no reason to be dishonest about the situation he entered.

So Wade was shot and 32,but Lebron played with a super team?
What is it man?

Kyrie was younger, but what has he done at that point?
Love wasn't even there when he signed with the Cavs and he wasn't doing anything in Minny.

So Wade was shot and he went to Finals.
Kyrie hasn't done a thing, 24 and went to 3 finals.
Love, hasn't done a thing and entering his prime and went to the finals.
Maybe they must of been playing with someone really damn good?

What makes a guy the GOAT when they switched teams like 4-5 teams, won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted them, lost with HCA 3+ times, Losing record in the finals, won bronze medals for America twice in Basketball?

What makes a guy a GOAT when they could only win when they had the best team and the best coach.
But doing absolutely nothing without them? If you are a GOAT candidate shouldn't you be able to do damage without having all the help possible?

[ChipotleWest]

What makes a guy a GOAT when they could only win when they had the best team and the best coach.
But doing absolutely nothing without them? If you are a GOAT candidate shouldn't you be able to do damage without having all the help possible?

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

[MavsDirk41]

James, Wade, and Bosh all made the allstar team together in Miami = 3 allstars

James, Irving, and Love all made the allstar team together in Cleveland = 3 allstars

When did Jordan play on a team with two other allstar players? Meaning Jordan, Pippen, and what player?

Answer that for me please….

So you're still going to continue to Ignore the times LeBron didn't have a super team and made it further than MJ did without Pippen and Phil and his stacked team?

Jordan didn't play with multiple all stars at the same time. But does that mean they weren't capable all star players.
So you telling me Kyrie, Harden, Butler not making all star this year make them bums? LOL, please answer. I know you won't though cause you're not built like that.

Tell me which teams Jordan played that were more stacked than his Bulls team?
I thought Jordan made players better? I guess not good enough for them to be on all star teams, seems like LeBron just sends his teammates to all star games playing with him. Not counting the players you keep mentioning, how bout Mo Will and Big Z? I guess those 2 are generational players right?

Also, how do we prove or disprove what kind of impact lebron james would have had on those Wizards teams? Can we actually prove what you are saying? If so how? Please explain…lll sit back and wait

We can simply base it on Facts. LeBron can do more with less than MJ. But like my first sentence you will ignore that he didn't have super teams and still made deep playoff Runs.

Now, let's use that same logic on you. How can you prove or disprove that MJ could of done more with AD on the wizards in a professional level? Knowing that he couldn't do anything without Pippen or Phil. Please I'd like to hear your thoughts with some examples on this, or are you just going to ignore it cause you got nothing?

Its like 18/19 and 21/22 seasons never happened…

Those happened for a fact,
18/19, Bron was injured for parts of it, they still didn't do anything when he came back.
21/22 no excuses with that team, just sad really.

But how about the non super teams LeBron took to deep playoff runs, first Cavs stint, 2018 Cavs, and this years Lakers?
You going to ignore those as well?

Doesn’t require deep analysis, just half a brain.

Wade was shot and 32.

Kyrie was what, 24? And on the rise and love was entering his prime.

The facts above do not discredit what he achieved in Cleveland, amazing ring. Just no reason to be dishonest about the situation he entered.

So Wade was shot and 32,but Lebron played with a super team?
What is it man?

Kyrie was younger, but what has he done at that point?
Love wasn't even there when he signed with the Cavs and he wasn't doing anything in Minny.

So Wade was shot and he went to Finals.
Kyrie hasn't done a thing, 24 and went to 3 finals.
Love, hasn't done a thing and entering his prime and went to the finals.
Maybe they must of been playing with someone really damn good?

What makes a guy the GOAT when they switched teams like 4-5 teams, won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted them, lost with HCA 3+ times, Losing record in the finals, won bronze medals for America twice in Basketball?

What makes a guy a GOAT when they could only win when they had the best team and the best coach.
But doing absolutely nothing without them? If you are a GOAT candidate shouldn't you be able to do damage without having all the help possible?

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

[jerok]

What makes a guy a GOAT when they could only win when they had the best team and the best coach.
But doing absolutely nothing without them? If you are a GOAT candidate shouldn't you be able to do damage without having all the help possible?

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

[Taj FTW]

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

[JordansBulls]

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

Dirk won 3 games against them as the 8th seed. So obviously not that good that year.

[JordansBulls]

Lebron has lost to virtually every elite big in his era. Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard with HCA, KG with HCA, Dirk with HCA, Durant, Jokic to name a few. Only beat old 36 year old Duncan when Lebron was at his peak and needed heroics for that from the other team making a dumb decision to not have there elite big in the game at the end. He has a losing record on the highest stage which isn't a good thing. He also won multiple bronze medals for America with Peak Duncan and Iverson on his squad and then Wade, Dwight, Melo. Was down in a series every year of his career at least 3-2 with fans in the arena. Missed the playoffs as much as titles won. Other players have more titles in the same amount of years or less without stacking the deck and moving from one team to the next. Only player to ever get swept in 3 different decades 4-0 in a series.

[Taj FTW]

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.



Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

Dirk won 3 games against them as the 8th seed. So obviously not that good that year.

You the man JB!

[OdomFan]

James, Wade, and Bosh all made the allstar team together in Miami = 3 allstars

James, Irving, and Love all made the allstar team together in Cleveland = 3 allstars

When did Jordan play on a team with two other allstar players? Meaning Jordan, Pippen, and what player?

Answer that for me please….

So you're still going to continue to Ignore the times LeBron didn't have a super team and made it further than MJ did without Pippen and Phil and his stacked team?

Jordan didn't play with multiple all stars at the same time. But does that mean they weren't capable all star players.
So you telling me Kyrie, Harden, Butler not making all star this year make them bums? LOL, please answer. I know you won't though cause you're not built like that.

Tell me which teams Jordan played that were more stacked than his Bulls team?
I thought Jordan made players better? I guess not good enough for them to be on all star teams, seems like LeBron just sends his teammates to all star games playing with him. Not counting the players you keep mentioning, how bout Mo Will and Big Z? I guess those 2 are generational players right?

Also, how do we prove or disprove what kind of impact lebron james would have had on those Wizards teams? Can we actually prove what you are saying? If so how? Please explain…lll sit back and wait

We can simply base it on Facts. LeBron can do more with less than MJ. But like my first sentence you will ignore that he didn't have super teams and still made deep playoff Runs.

Now, let's use that same logic on you. How can you prove or disprove that MJ could of done more with AD on the wizards in a professional level? Knowing that he couldn't do anything without Pippen or Phil. Please I'd like to hear your thoughts with some examples on this, or are you just going to ignore it cause you got nothing?

Its like 18/19 and 21/22 seasons never happened…

Those happened for a fact,
18/19, Bron was injured for parts of it, they still didn't do anything when he came back.
21/22 no excuses with that team, just sad really.

But how about the non super teams LeBron took to deep playoff runs, first Cavs stint, 2018 Cavs, and this years Lakers?
You going to ignore those as well?

Doesn’t require deep analysis, just half a brain.

Wade was shot and 32.

Kyrie was what, 24? And on the rise and love was entering his prime.

The facts above do not discredit what he achieved in Cleveland, amazing ring. Just no reason to be dishonest about the situation he entered.

So Wade was shot and 32,but Lebron played with a super team?
What is it man?

Kyrie was younger, but what has he done at that point?
Love wasn't even there when he signed with the Cavs and he wasn't doing anything in Minny.

So Wade was shot and he went to Finals.
Kyrie hasn't done a thing, 24 and went to 3 finals.
Love, hasn't done a thing and entering his prime and went to the finals.
Maybe they must of been playing with someone really damn good?

What makes a guy the GOAT when they switched teams like 4-5 teams, won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted them, lost with HCA 3+ times, Losing record in the finals, won bronze medals for America twice in Basketball?

What makes a guy a GOAT when they could only win when they had the best team and the best coach.
But doing absolutely nothing without them? If you are a GOAT candidate shouldn't you be able to do damage without having all the help possible?

Probably that he, that coach and that team earned that status together. It says a lot that you can't understand that simple concept. Phil Jackson was no where near the greatest coach when he first started coaching the Bulls, and that Bulls roster was no where near the best in the league. the front office built a solid team around MJ over time.

common sense.

[MavsDirk41]

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

Lol all you want to talk about is his first 7 years in Cleveland. Its hilarious man. You act like he hasnt played with a bunch of allstars the past 13 years. Did he make Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, Davis, and Westbrook better lol? Did he make Ball, Kuzma, and Ingram better?

Do you understand that Jordan played most of his career with Pippen? He didnt bounce around playing with his friends or other allstars like James. He built something called a dynasty. Kind of like Magic in LA. Bird in Boston. Duncan in San Antonio. Jordan wasnt a mercenary like James. James wouldnt know anything about a dynasty.

How did James do in LA without begging for Davis to come play with him. Pretty sure he missed the playoffs.

“Your not built for this” - thats awesome man lol

[MavsDirk41]

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

Oh yea kid im ducking it. He probably puts up 34/6/6 or something i dont know lol. Stupid question. Go look at his 6 finals performances. I think he would do pretty good. And before you come back with your hero did this, Jordan would have done better cause he raised his game in the finals. The moment was never too big for him like James.

[Taj FTW]

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.



Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

Oh yea kid im ducking it. He probably puts up 34/6/6 or something i dont know lol. Stupid question. Go look at his 6 finals performances. I think he would do pretty good. And before you come back with your hero did this, Jordan would have done better cause he raised his game in the finals. The moment was never too big for him like James.

Lol at you saying "stupid question". Wait until we dissect your answer...

In the 2014 finals, all the Heat's losses in that series were by an average of 18 points, despite LeBron's absurd efficiency (28 PPG on 68% TS%). Even if you magically give the Heat 6 more PPG from Jordan (not factoring in that you need to find 2-4 more shots somehow, and MJ isn't that efficient), they still lose those games by about 12 points. I just wanted to show that you have no idea what you're talking about when you say MJ would win that series. That declaration was based purely on emotion (your hate of LeBron), because there's no logical explanation for thinking MJ wins that. You just got exposed, brother

[JujitsuFlip]

Maybe the most times retired?

[ChipotleWest]

Same old tired argument. Jordan only played 3 years before Scottie was drafted and made the playoffs every year but lost to the #1 seed every single year, there was no more argument for Jordan to win those series than Lebron should have beaten the Spurs in the Finals in 2007. In Lebron's first 3 years he missed the playoffs the first two years then in his third beat a sorry Washington team. The competition was not close Jordan was facing the Beast East while Lebron was facing the Least East.

If Lebron had faced the freaking #1 seed Bucks and #1 seed Celtics twice from the 80's he would have lost in the first round too, or more accurately he wouldn't have made the playoffs. Come up with something new.

As far as Coach you could argue Phil could only win rings with Jordan Kobe and Shaq, does that make him the GOAT coach or did he have GOAT players?

It's only tiring to you cause it is facts.
He could not win without having the best supporting cast, combined that with those east teams getting older.

So we give MJ as pass for losing to "beast east" in the first round. But slander LeBron for losing to Spurs and GSW teams, in the finals. What kind of logic is that?

You speak like MJ was running through "Beast East" during the Bulls run. Bulls had the top 2 players if not 2 out of 3 every single night. Feasting on 1 star teams and expansion teams.

LeBron wouldn't of faced Celtics or Bucks in the first round cause he'd be a higher seed than 8. LOL

I'll play your game, IF MJ faced the finals opponents LeBron did would he have won every single title?

Problem with your Phil Jackson point is, he won with Others, MJ simply couldn't.
That's just a fact, and I know its tiring to you cause maybe you can't handle the truth.

Who did James make better?? In 07 Cleveland beat 41-41 Washington, 41-41 New Jersey, and 53-29 Detroit with Rip Hamilton, Prince, and Billups leading the team. Wallace was 32 and averaged 12 points a game that year. Webber was 33, only player 42 games that year, and averaged 11 points a game. Jordan had Birds Celtics in the east who won 3 championships with multiple hall of fame players and Detroit who won back to back championships in 89/90. You think those teams James faced were better than the Celtics or Pistons? Lol come on man.

Jordan and Phil Jackson made Pippen better. Pippen struggled his first couple years in the league. What is this “you arent built for this”?? What are you talking about lol? Weird stuff man

Who did LeBron make better? Like everyone? That's why those trash cavs team made deep playoff runs. Without LeBron leading them, they'd be getting bounce like MJ in the first round.
If you want an example, MO Will, All star with Lebron, nothing without.

So you're still going to dodge the question. MJ could only win with Pippen and Phil? But not without? LOL, that's why you're not built for it, you dodge facts when its right in front of you.

Talking about the fact MJ could not beat those teams without Pippen and Phil, further highlights the question I've been asking.
So just keep shooting yourself in the foot man.

Did MJ face those same Pistons and Celtics teams while in Washington?

Having a muscular winnie the pooh avatar and being a MJ hater just points to you being young and uneducated, you fit the bill. Most people that support Lebron as GOAT still have MJ as #2 or at least #3, you act like he's garbage.

Try to hype up the Bulls team as much as you want and Pippen, but Jordan won all 6 MVPs, 6-0. Lebron stands at 4-6. Lebron was the one who went ring chasing and teamed with Bosh and Wade in Miami, then went back to Cleveland with Kyrie and had Love trade in hand, then got AD in L.A.. Lebron failed when he didn't have at least one other superstar, usually two. And I still put Lebron as a top 5 player but he is not better than MJ Magic. I'd put Tim Duncan over him 5-1 could have gone 6-0 without a miracle Ray Allen 3 (that also saved Lebron's legacy or else he'd be 3-7 lol) Other than MJ and Pippen the Bulls had role players, role players do not compare to superstars.

Lebron had
Wade + Bosh

Who was Jordans Bosh? No one

Then Lebron had Kyrie and Love

Who was Jordan's 3rd best player comparable to Kevin Love? Didn't have one.

And don't tell me Lebron didn't have great role players as previously mentioned all time great 3 point shooters like Ray Allen. You have to really reach to try to put Lebron's career above Jordan.

Lebron also won with AD in the bubble which was kind of a joke playoffs that teams such as the Clippers didn't want to play in because they had to live in the bubble for months.

[twyzted]

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

Oh yea kid im ducking it. He probably puts up 34/6/6 or something i dont know lol. Stupid question. Go look at his 6 finals performances. I think he would do pretty good. And before you come back with your hero did this, Jordan would have done better cause he raised his game in the finals. The moment was never too big for him like James.

Lol at you saying "stupid question". Wait until we dissect your answer...

In the 2014 finals, all the Heat's losses in that series were by an average of 18 points, despite LeBron's absurd efficiency (28 PPG on 68% TS%). Even if you magically give the Heat 6 more PPG from Jordan (not factoring in that you need to find 2-4 more shots somehow, and MJ isn't that efficient), they still lose those games by about 12 points. I just wanted to show that you have no idea what you're talking about when you say MJ would win that series. That declaration was based purely on emotion (your hate of LeBron), because there's no logical explanation for thinking MJ wins that. You just got exposed, brother

Who are these “we” you talk about?
If Lebron played defense in 2014 mayby just mayby they wouldnt have been whooped?
Same age Jordan but up 41ppg 8rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg on
51-40-70 shooting splits.
That is +13ppg and +2apg with better defense.

Mayby he didnt get exposed

[Taj FTW]

Oh yea kid im ducking it. He probably puts up 34/6/6 or something i dont know lol. Stupid question. Go look at his 6 finals performances. I think he would do pretty good. And before you come back with your hero did this, Jordan would have done better cause he raised his game in the finals. The moment was never too big for him like James.

Lol at you saying "stupid question". Wait until we dissect your answer...

In the 2014 finals, all the Heat's losses in that series were by an average of 18 points, despite LeBron's absurd efficiency (28 PPG on 68% TS%). Even if you magically give the Heat 6 more PPG from Jordan (not factoring in that you need to find 2-4 more shots somehow, and MJ isn't that efficient), they still lose those games by about 12 points. I just wanted to show that you have no idea what you're talking about when you say MJ would win that series. That declaration was based purely on emotion (your hate of LeBron), because there's no logical explanation for thinking MJ wins that. You just got exposed, brother

Who are these “we” you talk about?
If Lebron played defense in 2014 mayby just mayby they wouldnt have been whooped?
Same age Jordan but up 41ppg 8rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg on
51-40-70 shooting splits.
That is +13ppg and +2apg with better defense.

Mayby he didnt get exposed

The PPG was 4+ points higher the year MJ did that. It was easier to score, and they weren't playing the defensive beast that was the 2014 Spurs with Kawhi. LOL at acting like the Suns were close to the Spurs on defense. Also, MJ was far less efficient than LeBron (68% TS% vs 55.8% TS%). Then you have to factor in where MJ would find all those addition shots. Out of thin air? EVEN if you give MJ those extra shots by taking away ONLY MISSES from his teammates (which isn't realistic), that still doesn't bridge the 18 PPG gap in their loses.

Looks like you have been exposed as well. Do your research next time.