Why was Darrell Griffith so bad?

[wojoaderge]

Enlighten me

[TheLand13]

He was?

[wojoaderge]

He was?

For a long time on this board i've been hearing that Dantley had no help on offense, that the Jazz were poorly constructed around him, etc. Rickey Green is also passively accused in this indictment

[DNice68]

He was?

For a long time on this board i've been hearing that Dantley had no help on offense, that the Jazz were poorly constructed around him, etc. Rickey Green is also passively accused in this indictment

He settled for too many jumpers!

[tsherkin]

He was?

Trash FT shooter, two seasons of relevant 3pt shooting with Dantley (well, 1, given Dantley's health in 85).

Dogcrap inefficient as a scorer, too. Like, properly useless. Didn't have a +0 rTS or a >0 rTS at any point in his career, averaged -3.2%. Definitely a trash option as a volume scoring threat.

[Moonbeam]

He was?

For a long time on this board i've been hearing that Dantley had no help on offense, that the Jazz were poorly constructed around him, etc. Rickey Green is also passively accused in this indictment

On a team level, this is absolutely true that Dantley had historically poor help on offense. I'm not sure that it's a particular indictment on the best running mates he had on that end, but overall, it's true that his teammates were overall much worse offensively than many. See this post for details of Dantley vs. other high-profile scorers who are assumed to have been bereft of good help on offense. In short, Dantley's teammates come out considerably worse on that end than those of Iverson, T-Mac, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc.

Many of them were given much larger roles in Utah than they ever had before or after. Let's look at the MPG of Dantley's teammates in the 2 seasons prior to joining Utah, all seasons in Utah, and 2 seasons after. I'll focus on his teammates from 1980-1983 as that is when Utah was a bad team.

Terry Furlow: 31.2 in 1 season with Utah, died in a car crash in the offseason
Allan Bristow: 18.1 before, 26.3 in Utah, 20.2 after
Pete Maravich: 39.0 in 2 seasons prior to Dantley joining, 30.7 as Dantley's teammate, 17.0 after
Ron Boone: 19.2 before, 27.0 in Utah, retired after
Ben Poquette: 15.3 before, 28.6 in Utah, 19.3 after
Tom Boswell: 28.1 before, 25.5 in his first season in Utah, then returned 3 seasons later for 6.9, retired after
Duck Williams: a single season of 23.3 MPG in Utah at age 23
Bernard King: 37.0 before, 22.1 in Utah, 36.1 after (this one is an exception but King had legal issues in Utah with a sexual assault case)
James Hardy: only played for the Jazz, averaging 21.6 MPG from ages 22-25
Billy McKinney: 16.7 before, 29.5 in Utah, 23.5 after
Darrell Griffith: 34.4 as Dantley's teammate, 22.6 after
Rickey Green: 14.8 before, 31.8 as Dantley's teammate, 19.8 the next 2 seasons in Utah after Dantley was traded
Wayne Cooper: 17.9 before, 20.0 in Utah, 25.1 after
Jeff Wilkins: 3 international seasons prior, joined Utah at age 25 and averaged 22.2 MPG, 19.3 after
Danny Schayes: 24.7 in Utah, 18.1 after
John Drew: 30.0 before, 24.1 in Utah, banned for substance abuse after
Rich Kelley: 20.6 before, 20.3 in Utah, 8.8 after
J.J. Anderson: 3.7 before, 13.3 in Utah, retired at age 24
Jerry Eaves: 16.2 in Utah, 10.5 in 6 total games after
Mark Eaton: 27.8 as Dantley's teammate, 29.3 after Dantley was traded

There's a generally consistent pattern of his teammates getting significant minute boosts in Utah and seeing them drop dramatically later. The most offensively talented among these are probably Furlow, Maravich, King, Griffith, Drew, and Green. 3 of these were compromised by drugs and/or legal issues (Furlow, King, Drew), 1 of which played all of 17 games with Dantley in his final season (Maravich), and then you have Griffith and Green. They gave significant minutes in at least one season to players who either never played another season despite being relatively young (Duck Williams, James Hardy) or played very few games (Jerry Eaves), or otherwise didn't last in the NBA long despite being young (J.J. Anderson).

As for Griffith himself, I think he was put into a higher primacy role than he was really capable of handling as soon as he joined the team. This is a guy who never posted league-average efficiency, and was often quite a bit below it. It's not entirely his fault --- Utah really had thin pickings for teammates as their team was notoriously cheap (one of the last teams to take buses between games instead of flights, making lopsided trades to save money, etc.). Most of this was his very low free throw rate, where he's routinely around 40-60% of league average.

With respect to his time with Dantley vs. afterward, it's hard to make an honest comparison as he missed the entirety of the 1985-86 season with a foot injury. But after Dantley was traded, Griffith's shot attempts dropped considerably and his efficiency didn't improve.

Personally, I loved watching Darrell Griffith as a highlight machine. I'd say he was a decent player, but the severaly limited other options meant he was given a bigger role than he probably would have been given on another team.

[trex_8063]

I mean, I guess I'll give him some credit for being able to "create" for himself, to a degree.

But......he relied too much on mid-range shots, had an abysmally low foul-draw rate (where he struggled to shoot above 70%, awful for a guard), didn't become a good 3pt shooter until his 4th season [and this is "good" for the era: which means less in the mid-80s than it would today].
"Augmenting" that: he wasn't a playmaker, was quite turnover-prone (actually had MORE turnovers than assists in his career........needless to say that's not something you want to see in a perimeter player), and not a good offensive rebounding wing either.

He was no prize on offense. Things could have been worse, but definitely could be a lot better.


Rickey Green was more decent imo. Better playmaker with respectable turnover economy. Quick as hell, didn't score near as much, but when he did he got to the line a little better than Griffith, where he was a notably better FT-shooter, too. Couldn't shoot from 3pt at all, though, and was still hovering usually just below league avg TS%.......but generally not quite as far below as Griffith.

I couldn't say for sure if Green was better defensively, too. He sure did get a lot of steals, but I think he was a gambler (I could be wrong though).

[70sFan]

All I can say is that you can't go anywhere with Griffith as your 2nd best scorer in the NBA.

[DQuinn1575]

Just had too much put upon him - had 9th highest usage for a rookie with 2,000 minutes since the merger; in years 2-4 he was 95-99% of league TS on 26-27% usage - the rule of thumb is something like 1.25% efficiency for every 1% of usage, so he really wasn't THAT bad.
I also think guys like him were hurt by the no dunk rule, as he grew up not being able to drive and dunk over people in high school. It was allowed his frosh year, but you didn't see guys driving and dunking over people that much in late 70s college basketball.
I was surprised he became a 3 point shooter, as he really wasn't a good outside shooter - as noted his FT% was bad, and again he didn't grow up shooting 3's in organized games.
Asked to do a lot on a lousy team, and really wasn't good enough shooter to impact a bad team and make them decent as their #2 guy.

[kcktiny]

I was surprised he became a 3 point shooter, as he really wasn't a good outside shooter

On the contrary for the time he actually was quite good as a 3pt shooter.

His first 7 years in the league (1980-81 to 1986-87) he made and attempted the most 3s by any player in the league, shot 313/945 for 33.1%. Those 7 seasons the league average 3pt FG% was just 27.2%.

In 1984-85 he made a then record 92 3s, made more than did 2/3 of the teams in the league that season.

Those 7 years among the 38 players that attempted 300+ 3s, his 33.1% success rate was the 14th highest, and players that attempted 300+ 3s but shot just 20%-30% included Reggie Theus, Michael Ray Richardson, Jim Paxson, Gus and Ray Williams, Allen Leavell, Johnny Moore, Walter Davis, Isiah Thomas, Eddie Johnson (the SF not the SG), Ricky Sobers, Purvis Short, Mike Evans, and John Lucas.

Listen to what the commentator says at the 1:50 mark:

Watch on YouTube

That's what people thought of his 3pt shooting at the time.

I also think guys like him were hurt by the no dunk rule... you didn't see guys driving and dunking over people that much in late 70s college basketball

You do realize his nickname in college was Dr. Dunkenstein right?

Watch on YouTube

[DQuinn1575]

I was surprised he became a 3 point shooter, as he really wasn't a good outside shooter

On the contrary for the time he actually was quite good as a 3pt shooter.

His first 7 years in the league (1980-81 to 1986-87) he made and attempted the most 3s by any player in the league, shot 313/945 for 33.1%. Those 7 seasons the league average 3pt FG% was just 27.2%.

In 1984-85 he made a then record 92 3s, made more than did 2/3 of the teams in the league that season.

Those 7 years among the 38 players that attempted 300+ 3s, his 33.1% success rate was the 14th highest, and players that attempted 300+ 3s but shot just 20%-30% included Reggie Theus, Michael Ray Richardson, Jim Paxson, Gus and Ray Williams, Allen Leavell, Johnny Moore, Walter Davis, Isiah Thomas, Eddie Johnson (the SF not the SG), Ricky Sobers, Purvis Short, Mike Evans, and John Lucas.

Listen to what the commentator says at the 1:50 mark:

Watch on YouTube

That's what people thought of his 3pt shooting at the time.

I also think guys like him were hurt by the no dunk rule... you didn't see guys driving and dunking over people that much in late 70s college basketball

You do realize his nickname in college was Dr. Dunkenstein right?

Watch on YouTube

I was surprised a guy who shot 70% from the FT line, and didnt shoot incredibly well from outside became a leading 3 point shooter. If you would have asked him in1980 what college star would become a leading 3 point shooter, I would not have guessed Griffith.


Dr. Dunkenstein - Yes I saw him at a clinic when he was in high school, and was amazed by his dunking ability. He averaged about 1.2 dunks a game in college; nowadays he might double that. He was an incredible leaper, but didnt incorporate in his game anywhere near the amount he would today.

[trex_8063]

I mean, I guess I'll give him some credit for being able to "create" for himself, to a degree.

But......he relied too much on mid-range shots, had an abysmally low foul-draw rate (where he struggled to shoot above 70%, awful for a guard), didn't become a good 3pt shooter until his 4th season [and this is "good" for the era: which means less in the mid-80s than it would today].
"Augmenting" that: he wasn't a playmaker, was quite turnover-prone (actually had MORE turnovers than assists in his career........needless to say that's not something you want to see in a perimeter player), and not a good offensive rebounding wing either.

He was no prize on offense. Things could have been worse, but definitely could be a lot better.


Rickey Green was more decent imo. Better playmaker with respectable turnover economy. Quick as hell, didn't score near as much, but when he did he got to the line a little better than Griffith, where he was a notably better FT-shooter, too. Couldn't shoot from 3pt at all, though, and was still hovering usually just below league avg TS%.......but generally not quite as far below as Griffith.

I couldn't say for sure if Green was better defensively, too. He sure did get a lot of steals, but I think he was a gambler (I could be wrong though).

I was going to add one more comment relating to the bolded portion.....

One could argue the only reason Griffith was even lower in terms of shooting efficiency is because he was a significantly higher usage scorer (which almost assuredly means a higher number and proportion of difficult shots [often in isolation]). If he had shot less, his efficiency might have matched or even marginally exceeded Green's.

However, this circles us back to a prior criticism [made by another poster], which is: he [Griffith] probably shouldn't have been shooting so much in the first place.
Admittedly those teams didn't have a ton of other options, but at the very least he'd have been well-served to try getting to the rim/line more often, and/or work on his playmaking ability, crash the offensive glass more, etc. SOMETHING other than chucking away in the mid-range.
He did at least develop a 3pt shot, so I gotta give him credit for that; and obviously that skill would be better-utilized today. But on the flip-side, his other tendencies would probably not be well-tolerated in today's league.

[kcktiny]

he [Griffith] probably shouldn't have been shooting so much in the first place.

He did at least develop a 3pt shot, so I gotta give him credit for that

After 1984-85 Griffith was literally the face of the league when it came to 3pt shooting.

Over the two seasons of 1983-84 and 1984-85 he attempted 509 three pointers. No one else in the league over both years attempted more than 262. He was firing away from long range far more than anyone else.

He made 183 threes, no one else made more than 93. As a matter of fact, these 2 seasons he made more 3s than did 21 of the 23 NBA teams.

And those 2 seasons he shot 36.0% on 3s, when the league average 3pt FG% was just 27%. Of the 8 players that attempted 200+ threes over the 2 years, no one shot better than 36.3% (Larry Bird, 74/204).

Also his first 5 years in the league (1980-81 to 1984-85) Griffith was the 3rd highest scoring SG (21.0 pts/g), only George Gervin (26.6 pts/g) and World B. Free (23.1 pts/g) scored more. Pretty amazing considering his teammate Dantley was the leading scorer in the league those 5 seasons (29.9 pts/g).

Griffith was drafted as a scorer (his last year at Louisville in 1979-80 he scored 22.9 pts/g and 26.5 pts/40min) and that's exactly what he did in the NBA - score.

the only reason Griffith was even lower in terms of shooting efficiency

These 5 years Griffith shot an eFG% of 49.1%. The average SG in the league shot a 48.6% eFG%. So he was a better than average shooter for a SG.

at the very least he'd have been well-served to try getting to the rim/line more often

Yes for a guard that dunked as much as he did he surely did not draw many fouls.

Asked to do a lot on a lousy team, and really wasn't good enough shooter to impact a bad team and make them decent as their #2 guy.

Shooting was not the reason his impact wasn't better. His TO/g were high for a SG and he was a poor defender. That's what put him near the bottom of the list of the best starting SGs and why he lost his starting slot to Bobby Hansen when he came back from his injury.

For a long time on this board i've been hearing that Dantley had no help on offense, that the Jazz were poorly constructed around him, etc. Rickey Green is also passively accused in this indictment

Green was absolutely one of the better PGs in the early to mid-80s with the Jazz. Nowhere as good as Magic or Cheeks, but up there. From 1980-81 to 1985-86 among all PGs threw for the 4th most assists, grabbed the 3rd most steals, but committed just the 7th most turnovers. Had a 3.5-1 ast/TO ratio. During this same time Isiah Thomas had a 2.6-1 ratio, Magic a 2.9-1 ratio, Cheeks a 3.1-1 ratio.

Utah really had thin pickings for teammates

If one is looking for reasons why Utah was not very good even though Dantley was putting up 29-30 pts/g for 7 seasons with super efficiency (1979-80 to 1985-86), look no further than their PFs and Cs. Those 7 seasons Utah's PFs and Cs as a group:

- shot just a 47.7% 2pt FG%, 2nd lowest in the league next to only those PFs and Cs that played for Dallas
- attempted the fewest FTAs per minute among all teams' PFs and Cs
- were the worst per minute offensive rebounders among all teams' PFs and Cs