Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[HEAT33]

If someone has Kobe over Lebron, I can understand that, its not always about the numbers.
I have Kobe ahead of Lebron........

[dhsilv2]

Anyone taking any of these “efficiency” stats, take your pick. But not looking at how different the freedom of movement rules have made it easier on the offense. The grabbing, the holding etc is far less than it was 20 years ago. How the additional floor spacing today has made scoring easier, there is so much room for offensive players to operate versus 15, 20 years ago.

I suppose if you mean only comparing raw efficiency and not looking also at separation from league average (RS and PS), then that has some merit, sure. Like, it's clear that in a league with higher 3PAr and FTr, you'll see higher raw efficiency stats. But you tend to see dominant offensive stars deviating from league average by rTS% margins that aren't too different in most cases.

Citing how much the increased pace of todays game has impacted offensive output, easy transition buckets are far more prevalent today than the walk it up and get into your offense style we saw in 2002 that resulted in 84-76 slug fests. Not too mention just more scoring opportunities exist today through the increased pace of the game.

Compared to the late 90s and early 2000s, sure. But the early 90s were of a similar pace and the 80s and earlier were all faster, so that matters only for very specific comparisons.

And that’s all I ever see anyone do on this board.

Well, part of your problem then is that you're looking for high-end comparative examination on the General Board. Go to the PC Board and you'll find a decidedly different experience

So yeah, it’s all garbage.

An understandable sentiment, even if it's the wrong conclusion.

I’ve rarely if ever seen an argument on here that compared to the mean of the era, which would make absolutely more sense in many cases. That’s a great example of what I was talking about. More apples to apples comparisons.

“Sure when compared to the 90s and early 2000s but the early 1990s…” ummm this is a thread about Kobe Bryant. There will be a little more consistency comparing pace today with the 80s and very early 90s…but what does that have to do with Kobe? I do generally try to keep (at least loosely) to the subject at hand.

Correct I am referring to the General Board..that’s the board we are posting on. And the crux of my argument that most of these arguments on this board citing stats are garbage. Again…let’s keep to the current thread and board.

“…even if it’s the wrong conclusion” huh…you just restated one of my points in new words and removing the context of the thread in two other of your points and that equals a strong argument that I’ve come to the wrong conclusion? You care to actually give some poignant arguments to that fact instead of what you’ve posted? Cause you haven’t gotten close to making that point in your response.

This feels like you're talking about the same people who generally seem to hate stats, but then cherry pick them and wildly miss use them. Which this forum is full of people doing that.

[tsherkin]

I’ve rarely if ever seen an argument on here that compared to the mean of the era, which would make absolutely more sense in many cases. That’s a great example of what I was talking about. More apples to apples comparisons.

People use rTS all the time... though again, more so on the PC Board.

Correct I am referring to the General Board..that’s the board we are posting on. And the crux of my argument that most of these arguments on this board citing stats are garbage. Again…let’s keep to the current thread and board.

This is not the specific sub-board to come to for nuanced argument, though, you know this. So complaining about it is perhaps a little bit like spitting into the wind.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Kobe is a guy I never liked. Always tried copying MJ in every way. Copies his persona and had to always rell people that he is the most competitive person ever. Let your play do the talking! He also created his own nickname. You don't create your own nickname. Demanded a trade before even playing in the league, then demanded a trade while on the Lakers! This guy stacked the deck from the start. RIP but he will always be a dollar store MJ to me.

[tsherkin]

He also created his own nickname. You don't create your own nickname.

Yeah, but it worked. People ran with it. Kobe had a degree of gravitas that isn't always well-represented by his detractors, independent from commentary on his floor game. Dude was very good, and very, very popular.

Demanded a trade before even playing in the league, then demanded a trade while on the Lakers! This guy stacked the deck from the start. RIP but he will always be a dollar store MJ to me.

This is like a shanty-town take on the guy's career. Not liking him is one thing; attempting to degrade the memory of his performance by calling him a "dollar store MJ" is just somewhat non-sensical to me.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

He also created his own nickname. You don't create your own nickname.

Yeah, but it worked. People ran with it. Kobe had a degree of gravitas that isn't always well-represented by his detractors, independent from commentary on his floor game. Dude was very good, and very, very popular.

Demanded a trade before even playing in the league, then demanded a trade while on the Lakers! This guy stacked the deck from the start. RIP but he will always be a dollar store MJ to me.

This is like a shanty-town take on the guy's career. Not liking him is one thing; attempting to degrade the memory of his performance by calling him a "dollar store MJ" is just somewhat non-sensical to me.

I don't care. People describe him as this competitive god. That's bc he always had to tell people how competitive he was. I think what LeBron did by stacking the deck is a stain on the league. Kobe did worse by demanding a trade before he even played and then demanding a trade because he had to play a few years without a completely stacked team. Especially considering he drove the other star out of town!

He was a great player but he chucked a lot and demanded trades the second he wasn't on a powerhouse team. He made himself a carbon copy of MJ. As a result he became a dollar store MJ. That is still a hall of famer but there is only one MJ!

[One_and_Done]

Kobe is overrated af.

[dj20001]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

[flytimes11]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

Yes they aren’t familiar with the hard data. That’s what truly tells a players greatness. Haven’t you heard?

[ComeFlyWithMe]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

Yes they aren’t familiar with the hard data. That’s what truly tells a players greatness. Haven’t you heard?

You know why all these ex players like Isiah Thomas don't get GM jobs or end up being all time horrible GMs? Because they are complete bozos when it comes to evaluating talent! Players are largely bozos when it comes to ranking players. There is a reason they rarely if ever be ome GMs. You are also talking about a guy who recently died. What player is going to talk bad about the recently deceased? That's bad for business! Using their opinions is a very weak case for dollar store MJ.

[Moonbeam]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

Are those guys trashing Kobe's teammates in order to prop up Kobe? Are they concocting wild narratives or cherry-picking data samples in order to prop him up?

Of course everyone is free to have an opinion on Kobe and where he ranks all-time. None of us could ever dream of having the sort of knowledge through experience that players have. My post was about why the discussion around Kobe (as well as the other players I listed) usually becomes toxic. This thread is yet another example of this, unfortunately.

[ILOVEIT]

Kobe acted like and literally wanted to be like Mike. Most of his career he was compared to Mike. I think because of that he was judged by Jordan's standard. And to that standard he falls short. IMO, he was never likeable, either. I think the worse was when he anointed himself "Mamba" When you have to create your own nickname ...no bueno.

[Moonbeam]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

Yes they aren’t familiar with the hard data. That’s what truly tells a players greatness. Haven’t you heard?

You've just embodied why the conversation around Kobe often becomes so toxic. In your initial reply here, you said you appreciated what I had written. I did not follow up with anything inflammatory (the only other posts being here, here, and here), and yet now you are dunking on my post as if it's ridiculous.

[Onlytimewilltel]

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

Yes they aren’t familiar with the hard data. That’s what truly tells a players greatness. Haven’t you heard?

You've just embodied why the conversation around Kobe often becomes so toxic. In your initial reply here, you said you appreciated what I had written. I did not follow up with anything inflammatory (the only other posts being here and here), and yet now you are dunking on my post as if it's ridiculous.

Dude is biased as F lol

Anything that doesn’t fit his (or her) narrative will be dunked on

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Kobe in terms of pure skill is arguably a top 5 player, and you can easily put him #1, even ahead of MJ depending on criteria. Pound for pound and all that.

Kobe in terms of how that translated onto the court, is a top 15 player, you could argue probably sneaking him in the top 10 at best.

A lot of people prefer to rate players based on the former rather than the latter. Also in Kobe's case, unlike some guys who had potential but never really came that close to what they showed (say, a Jamal Crawford, Vince Carter, Rasheed Wallace etc), Kobe actually did scrape the ceiling of his potential. His only real flaws were he could be a bit robotic at times switching from pass to score mode (he knew how to pass but wasn't always willing to flow with the offense), and obviously hero ball which is a function of that.

So you have this interesting combination of a guy who can be argued as the most skilled pure basketball talent of all time, while also coming very near to fulfilling all of his potential, and I can see why some want to view him as a top 5 or even top 2 player. I disagree with it, but I can see why others see it.

To answer the thread though, no, he isn't given the most flack, actually the opposite, he's given the most leeway, specifically because people who are fans of him see how close he came to meeting his potential, and also see how insanely skilled he is. I think if Kobe played more like Penny, which he definitely showed the ability to do so, during Shaq's initial tenure there, they probably could have won 5-6 rings, with Shaq potentially allowing Kobe to naturally become the man for the last 2-3 of those, rather than what actually happened.

[Franco]

Lol Kobe is probably the most difficult shot taker and maker in history, that is unique and can’t be measured.

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[JRoy]

He also created his own nickname. You don't create your own nickname.

Yeah, but it worked. People ran with it. Kobe had a degree of gravitas that isn't always well-represented by his detractors, independent from commentary on his floor game. Dude was very good, and very, very popular.

Demanded a trade before even playing in the league, then demanded a trade while on the Lakers! This guy stacked the deck from the start. RIP but he will always be a dollar store MJ to me.

This is like a shanty-town take on the guy's career. Not liking him is one thing; attempting to degrade the memory of his performance by calling him a "dollar store MJ" is just somewhat non-sensical to me.

It’s a great take in my opinion.

[flytimes11]

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kobe was the best "bad shot maker", due to his absurdly elite balance and body control. The effect of this was that no team could ever be certain that they could stop Kobe from shooting under any circumstances and he would often take "bad" shots. This meant that the defensive coverage of him had to be different. Point of attack defenders had to stay on him and could not step back and help defenders had to shade him and even throw double/triple teams at him, which lead to favorable outcomes for the Lakers. This is what they used to call the Kobe assist but I’m not gonna get into that lol.

Every decision and action leads to a cascading set of decisions and actions. This is built up over a game, over a playoff series, over a season and over a career. LeBron James talked about this idea when he mentioned that over the course of a game, he is setting his opponents up with moves to make other moves more effective later in the game.

Just like in 2000 the blazers didn’t put a body on Shaq the most dominant ever at his peak because they were so focused on Kobe shooting, this lead to the famous alley.

[CraftylikeaFox]

If someone has Kobe over Lebron, I can understand that, its not always about the numbers.
I have Kobe ahead of Lebron........

For a top 10 of MY favorite players of all time, sure it's not all about the numbers. I have Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, and Peja Stojakovic in my top 10 for that. But a top 10 best all time players, then yeah, it's about the numbers. Kobe's work ethic and will to win don't count at all for that.

[CP3nthusiast]

This forum is really the only place you could get a sobering and fact-based analysis of Kobe's career. In the real world, almost everyone I know who watches basketball has Kobe in their top 5 for no reason other than he made some of the toughest shots anyone's ever seen. Casual fans seem to really love and overrate isolation scorers like Kobe, AI, Kyrie, KD, Harden.