Nash vs wade, greater peak

[tsherkin]

I get that context plays a role but there's also a huge difference between losing with context in the 2nd rd and having an all time finals to go with very strong 2nd rd/cf.

Depends on the opponent involved, really. You can face the eventual champ in any round, after all. Losing to, say, the 2007 Spurs isn't any different in the 2nd round vs in the Finals.

[Cavsfansince84]

Depends on the opponent involved, really. You can face the eventual champ in any round, after all. Losing to, say, the 2007 Spurs isn't any different in the 2nd round vs in the Finals.

ok so having said all of this would you have Nash's peak above Wade's?

[tsherkin]

ok so having said all of this would you have Nash's peak above Wade's?

I think so, yes. I will cede that it is a near thing, as Wade was pretty wild in 09 and 10.

[1993Playoffs]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

[falcolombardi]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

Wade was a incredible floor raiser no doubt lifting a pretty weak heat roster in 2006

But it also has to be said the nash suns had quite literally the best playoffs offense run in history bar none

Could wade have replicated that in a talented offensr roster like nash had ? Tempatitvely i dont think so

Could nash have lifted the 2006 heat offense by himself ? Not sure but i see it as more lilely

Completely agree wadr is a stronger defender, albeit nash being a huge negativr may be a tad overstated

[Colbinii]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

You think Wade was harder to stop yet against the same Opponent, Nash/Suns posted a 111 Ortg and Wade/Heat posted a 101 Ortg.

Explain how Wade was harder to stop when Nash led a significantly better and more lethal offense.

[1993Playoffs]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

You think Wade was harder to stop yet against the same Opponent, Nash/Suns posted a 111 Ortg and Wade/Heat posted a 101 Ortg.

Explain how Wade was harder to stop when Nash led a significantly better and more lethal offense.

I mean I’m not going to credit their entire offense on just Nash , other guys have to make shots as well.

It’s more of a play style thing rather than numbers imo. As an individual player I’d rather have a healthy peak Wade attacking and being my #1 or focal point. I feel Nash as his size can be limited more. On top of the defensive deficiencies.

[1993Playoffs]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

Wade was a incredible floor raiser no doubt lifting a pretty weak heat roster in 2006

But it also has to be said the nash suns had quite literally the best playoffs offense run in history bar none

Could wade have replicated that in a talented offensr roster like nash had ? Tempatitvely i dont think so

Could nash have lifted the 2006 heat offense by himself ? Not sure but i see it as more lilely

Completely agree wadr is a stronger defender, albeit nash being a huge negativr may be a tad overstated

Probably not but I don’t think that means Wade is objectively a worse player or anything. I just think in totality prime Wade offers more for a team that’s trying to win a championship. Ala defense, rim pressure, legitimately good (not on Nash level obviously) playmaking. Etc..

[Colbinii]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

You think Wade was harder to stop yet against the same Opponent, Nash/Suns posted a 111 Ortg and Wade/Heat posted a 101 Ortg.

Explain how Wade was harder to stop when Nash led a significantly better and more lethal offense.

I mean I’m not going to credit their entire offense on just Nash , other guys have to make shots as well.

Yeah, the same goes for Wade who had Shaq as a teammate [granted, past-prime but still an All-Star].

But, here is the thing, for 6 years 2005-2010, Nash-led offenses were always, at a minimum, +5 Ortg Rel Lg Avg, with his On-Court rating being significantly higher than +5. These teams varied in supporting casts, from the Amare/Marion/Joe casts to the Amare/Richardson/Hill cast.

And, if you want to dig deeper, specifically for 2006, here are the Offensive On/Off of all the Suns key players in the post-season.

Nash: +11.6
Marion: +6.9
Raja: +2.7
Diaw: -2.6
James Jones: -6.9
Barbosa: -5.3
Tim Thomas: +7.7

This was the Suns rotation in the 2006 NBA Playoffs. Do you see a Joe Johnson or Amare Stoudemire? Nope. This was a middling cast, no elite 2nd or even 3rd offensive option you would expect from an explosive offense, yet they were outscoring a Wade led-team with Shaq--lapping them even--in terms of Offensive Efficiency.

It’s more of a play style thing rather than numbers imo. As an individual player I’d rather have a healthy peak Wade attacking and being my #1 or focal point. I feel Nash as his size can be limited more.

Ah, so it is an opinion that ignores any statistical evidence--or Facts. Got it.

[cupcakesnake]

Peak Wade adds an insanely valuable thing to an offense: a first step that can break down any defense. He let's you start every possession with advantage, and once he's in the paint, he's more than adequate as a scorer and playmaker. It's a very nice thing to build and offense around. Wade has weaknesses too. He's not an outside scorer, so you want to surround him with shooting so teams can wall up the paint too easily. He's a good but not great play maker and decision maker, so it's not like he's turning every single drive into gold.

But when you think about what Nash gives your offense, it's a tall order to say someone else gives more. Not only does his all-time ball handling allow him to move anywhere he wants on the court (against any kind of defense), not only does he keep the defense in a constant state of paralysis with the threat of his shooting combined with the threat of his playmaking, not only is does he stay aggressive nearly 100% of the time, but on top of all of that, we're talking about arguably the greatest decision maker with the ball in his hands ever. Not only does he create scoring opportunities all over the court, but he chooses the right one the most often.

I don't think there's much comparison in terms of pure offensive peaks, even if I think peak Wade is one of the best weapons you can have. Wade might close the gap with his much stronger defense and the value of his physical ability (areas Nash is a neutral nothing in).

[rk2023]

Not too related to my view of preferring Wade, but unsure if I see IQ as a tangible advantage in his favor (as both are great here). Nash was the engine behind one of the most innovative offensive schemes in NBA History, and very arguably the most creative playmaker / manipulator of a defense across all of the sport.

[f4p]

Nash was leading significantly better post-season offenses than Wade. Wade won a finals with a 101 Ortg against a defense who posted 105 Drtg in the season.

Nash, in 2006, was eliminated when his team posted a 111 Ortg against the same Mavericks. I don't buy the whole overcome thing offensively--and it isn't close.

I know Nash led some very good playoff offenses but winning trumps losing. I don't mean just from my perspective but within the overall community.

The idea of winning trumping losing goes only so far when there are relevant contextual details like the suspensions and the injuries and so on and so forth. It was clear that they had what it took to win, just not the measure of luck title teams require.

and that's great if we're comparing nash to wade winning with the heatles. but wade wasn't just along for the ride of a win. it's one of the most impressive finals performances ever. right after an ECF where he shot over 60% against a ben wallace detroit defense. wade being incredible is the context for why they won those series. nash simply has nothing like this.

But it also has to be said the nash suns had quite literally the best playoffs offense run in history bar none

there's more than just team ORtg, otherwise nash should be like a top 5 player ever. in a 10 series stretch from the 2005 WCF against the spurs to the 2010 WCF against the lakers, the suns had 3 playoff series where they had a +13 or better rORtg. in all 3 of those series, they also had at least a +11 or worse rDRtg. they were playing incredibly offensively slanted series in some of these cases.

in 2007, in nash's biggest series ever, in the suspension game, the suns were actually up 6 after the 3rd. then nash shot 1-8 in the 4th and they lost the lead. nash's fault they lost in tough circumstances? not necessarily, but does that look like peak wade from the 2006 finals (or what we can assume he would do from 2009/2010)? in the next game, with the series still in the balance, with 9 minutes to go in the game, nash was 1-4 with 3 points and 3 turnovers and his team was down 20 before an all-time statpad 6-6 finish. is that really measuring up to dwade dragging his team back from down 13 with 6:42 to go in the finals when already down 2-0?

[Bidofo]

Yeah, the same goes for Wade who had Shaq as a teammate [granted, past-prime but still an All-Star].

Yes, even Shaq in probably his last prime year was a great co-star and the only player on either the 2006 Suns or Heat with the capability of reliably creating his own shot. That being said, in the playoffs, he really wasn't all that individually efficient once you factor in his high turnover rate. A 100 box-score ORTG and 1.0 OBPM is not really what you expect of him. He actually was the only relevant teammate of Wade's that hit the 1 OBPM mark, and out of all the key players, two of them (Haslem and Payton) were actually in the negatives (-1.3 and -1.7). Contrast that to Nash with 3 teammates at 1.5 or better, and only one in the negatives (Jones at -1.7 at 18mpg). Fwiw, Wade (6.5) also bests Nash (5.2) though I find OBPM underrates players of the Nash(/Magic) archetype.

Speaking on their common opponent specifically, the Mavericks did everything they could to stop Shaq, and as a result he saw a big decrease in volume and a still very high turnover rate. That's definitely a big reason why they struggled on offense so mightily.

But, here is the thing, for 6 years 2005-2010, Nash-led offenses were always, at a minimum, +5 Ortg Rel Lg Avg, with his On-Court rating being significantly higher than +5. These teams varied in supporting casts, from the Amare/Marion/Joe casts to the Amare/Richardson/Hill cast.

Every one of those casts, including the year without Amare, was stronger offensively than what Wade had to carry in 2006. Nash has never had to deal with an inefficient chucker like Walker.

Of course on a team level, the Heat didn't do well against the Mavericks, but they were great otherwise against tougher defenses. +4.5 against the 7th best defense Bulls, +10.5 against the 4th Nets, and +4.1 against the 5th Pistons. Again, all this with a pretty weak offensive cast around him.

And, if you want to dig deeper, specifically for 2006, here are the Offensive On/Off of all the Suns key players in the post-season.

Nash: +11.6
Marion: +6.9 (31% @ 3.5)
Raja: +2.7 (46.5% @ 5)
Diaw: -2.6 (43% @ 0.4)
James Jones: -6.9 (31% @ 1.3)
Barbosa: -5.3 (39% @ 3.5)
Tim Thomas: +7.7 (44% @ 5.4)

This was the Suns rotation in the 2006 NBA Playoffs. Do you see a Joe Johnson or Amare Stoudemire? Nope. This was a middling cast, no elite 2nd or even 3rd offensive option you would expect from an explosive offense, yet they were outscoring a Wade led-team with Shaq--lapping them even--in terms of Offensive Efficiency.

It only makes sense to do the same for the Heat as well. 2006 is a nice common year to use since it's the only supporting cast Nash had that was even remotely close to the 2006 Heat because of the injuries. I also included 3pt shooting for the cast, the attempts are per game.

Wade: +21.9
Haslem: -4.4
Payton: -5.6 (29% @ 2.5)
Walker: -1.0 (32% @ 6.4)
Posey: +4.5 (42% @ 3.8)
Williams: -2.8 (27% @ 4.1)
Shaq: -1.5

I think Wade would look at the Nash numbers quite enviously. A big reason why the Suns shot so well from 3 (routinely #1 in 3p%) is because they have an all time passer in Nash, but they also genuinely had some snipers that shot well even outside of the years they played with Nash. The difference in spacing between the two is enormous, yet the increase in eFG% with Wade on/off is basically equivalent to Nash on/off. What really stands out to me though is just how many offensive rebounds the Heat got with Wade on/off, it's a difference of 11.6 points. Now here is where I put the disclaimer about sample sizes, especially for high minute players in the playoffs, but it's a difference in ORB% you don't see with anyone else. For reference, the ORB% basically didn't change with Shaq (or Mourning) on/off, though they were replacing one great offensive rebounder with another. But why the huge difference with Wade? My theory is that his constant rim pressure leads to more inside second chance opportunities, and while my last viewing of that 2006 run is when it happened, that does fit what I remember. And that's a part of his impact that wouldn't necessarily be noticeable on a cursory glance at their seasons. It helped fill the gap between two supporting casts that were quite far apart in quality (offensively speaking).

It’s more of a play style thing rather than numbers imo. As an individual player I’d rather have a healthy peak Wade attacking and being my #1 or focal point. I feel Nash as his size can be limited more.

Ah, so it is an opinion that ignores any statistical evidence--or Facts. Got it.

Idk, this seems rather snide for a post that was responding to you essentially equating team offense to individual goodness, which happens pretty often on this board imo. I definitely disagree with the last sentence about limiting Nash, but the rest of it is perfectly reasonable. Sometimes our intuition can absolutely be backed by the numbers and reality, and I think this is one of those cases; Wade simply had an all time playoff run (and his RS was damn great too). His last two series' that year were absolute dynamite, everyone remembers the performance against the Mavs but his destruction of the Pistons right before was arguably just as impressive. It's a pretty good example of what an offensive floor raiser can do with just an ok supporting cast that leans more on the defensive side. Wade's constant rim pressure, ability to draw fouls (no matter how corrupt you may think it was ), and overall shotmaking (42% from 10-16, 45% from 16-3p!) can let you trot lineups that would otherwise be bad offensively and let them focus more on the other end (but can you imagine pre-injuries Wade with a lightning quick first step with all that spacing?). He was unstoppable as it gets that year, so to reduce it to team ORTGs is just silly. There's so much more that factors into it.

[f4p]

Wade for sure. For all of Nash’s offensive brilliance,I still think peak Wade is tougher to stop in a playoff setting due to his size , aggression and IQ.


Defensively it’s not close. Wade was a positive guard defender, with some underrated shot blocking

Nash was a terrible defender

You think Wade was harder to stop yet against the same Opponent, Nash/Suns posted a 111 Ortg and Wade/Heat posted a 101 Ortg.

Explain how Wade was harder to stop when Nash led a significantly better and more lethal offense.

i wrote this in a top 100 thread, but here is the offensive supporting cast wade had in the 2006 finals:

the heat player who played the second most minutes in the finals was antoine walker! who played exactly like you expect for antoine walker, with 39/27/56 shooting splits for a 45.6 TS%! and he shot so much he was their second leading scorer! that's just a straight up offensive negative taking up the second most shot attempts (true shot attempts as well) on the team.

4th in minutes and points was jason williams with 36/35/64 shooting splits and a 48.3 TS%
6th in minutes and points was udonis with 50/0/30 shooting splits and a 48.3 TS%
7th in minutes was gary payton with 37/14/33 shooting splits and a 39.4 TS%

even shaq only managed a 53.2 TS% because of his 29.2 FT%!

that is a trainwreck of an offensive supporting cast. hell, it's so much worse than i remembered before i started typing this. the shooting splits for these guys are comical. the non-wade players shot 45% on free throws. has that ever happened? he just barely missed out on outscoring the next 3 teammates combined. dwade averaging 40 ppg over the last 4 games is just floor-raising on an epic level and it turned around a finals on a dime.

dwade was playing on a team that shot 45% on free throws. free throws! with hilarious splits like 37/14/33. on the free throws, if they just shot 70% and 77-110 instead of 50-110, that would be worth 5 ORtg alone.