Colbinii wrote:Yeah, the same goes for Wade who had Shaq as a teammate [granted, past-prime but still an All-Star].
Yes, even Shaq in probably his last prime year was a great co-star and the only player on either the 2006 Suns or Heat with the capability of reliably creating his own shot. That being said, in the playoffs, he really wasn't all that individually efficient once you factor in his high turnover rate. A 100 box-score ORTG and 1.0 OBPM is not really what you expect of him. He actually was the only relevant teammate of Wade's that hit the 1 OBPM mark, and out of all the key players, two of them (Haslem and Payton) were actually in the negatives (-1.3 and -1.7). Contrast that to Nash with 3 teammates at 1.5 or better, and only one in the negatives (Jones at -1.7 at 18mpg). Fwiw, Wade (6.5) also bests Nash (5.2) though I find OBPM underrates players of the Nash(/Magic) archetype.
Speaking on their common opponent specifically, the Mavericks did everything they could to stop Shaq, and as a result he saw a big decrease in volume and a still very high turnover rate. That's definitely a big reason why they struggled on offense so mightily.
Colbinii wrote:But, here is the thing, for 6 years 2005-2010, Nash-led offenses were always, at a minimum, +5 Ortg Rel Lg Avg, with his On-Court rating being significantly higher than +5. These teams varied in supporting casts, from the Amare/Marion/Joe casts to the Amare/Richardson/Hill cast.
Every one of those casts, including the year without Amare, was stronger offensively than what Wade had to carry in 2006. Nash has never had to deal with an inefficient chucker like Walker.
Of course on a team level, the Heat didn't do well against the Mavericks, but they were great otherwise against tougher defenses. +4.5 against the 7th best defense Bulls, +10.5 against the 4th Nets, and +4.1 against the 5th Pistons. Again, all this with a pretty weak offensive cast around him.
Colbinii wrote:And, if you want to dig deeper, specifically for 2006, here are the Offensive On/Off of all the Suns key players in the post-season.
Nash: +11.6
Marion: +6.9 (31% @ 3.5)
Raja: +2.7 (46.5% @ 5)
Diaw: -2.6 (43% @ 0.4)
James Jones: -6.9 (31% @ 1.3)
Barbosa: -5.3 (39% @ 3.5)
Tim Thomas: +7.7 (44% @ 5.4)
This was the Suns rotation in the 2006 NBA Playoffs. Do you see a Joe Johnson or Amare Stoudemire? Nope. This was a middling cast, no elite 2nd or even 3rd offensive option you would expect from an explosive offense, yet they were outscoring a Wade led-team with Shaq--lapping them even--in terms of Offensive Efficiency.
It only makes sense to do the same for the Heat as well. 2006 is a nice common year to use since it's the only supporting cast Nash had that was even remotely close to the 2006 Heat because of the injuries. I also included 3pt shooting for the cast, the attempts are per game.
Wade: +21.9
Haslem: -4.4
Payton: -5.6 (29% @ 2.5)
Walker: -1.0 (32% @ 6.4)
Posey: +4.5 (42% @ 3.8)
Williams: -2.8 (27% @ 4.1)
Shaq: -1.5
I think Wade would look at the Nash numbers quite enviously. A big reason why the Suns shot so well from 3 (routinely #1 in 3p%) is because they have an all time passer in Nash, but they also genuinely had some snipers that shot well even outside of the years they played with Nash. The difference in spacing between the two is enormous, yet the increase in eFG% with Wade on/off is basically equivalent to Nash on/off. What really stands out to me though is just how many offensive rebounds the Heat got with Wade on/off, it's a difference of 11.6 points. Now here is where I put the disclaimer about sample sizes, especially for high minute players in the playoffs, but it's a difference in ORB% you don't see with anyone else. For reference, the ORB% basically didn't change with Shaq (or Mourning) on/off, though they were replacing one great offensive rebounder with another. But why the huge difference with Wade? My theory is that his constant rim pressure leads to more inside second chance opportunities, and while my last viewing of that 2006 run is when it happened, that does fit what I remember. And that's a part of his impact that wouldn't necessarily be noticeable on a cursory glance at their seasons. It helped fill the gap between two supporting casts that were quite far apart in quality (offensively speaking).
Colbinii wrote:It’s more of a play style thing rather than numbers imo. As an individual player I’d rather have a healthy peak Wade attacking and being my #1 or focal point. I feel Nash as his size can be limited more.
Ah, so it is an opinion that ignores any statistical evidence--or
Facts. Got it.
Idk, this seems rather snide for a post that was responding to you essentially equating team offense to individual goodness, which happens pretty often on this board imo. I definitely disagree with the last sentence about limiting Nash, but the rest of it is perfectly reasonable. Sometimes our intuition can absolutely be backed by the numbers and reality, and I think this is one of those cases; Wade simply had an all time playoff run (and his RS was damn great too). His last two series' that year were absolute dynamite, everyone remembers the performance against the Mavs but his destruction of the Pistons right before was arguably just as impressive. It's a pretty good example of what an offensive floor raiser can do with just an ok supporting cast that leans more on the defensive side. Wade's constant rim pressure, ability to draw fouls (no matter how corrupt you may think it was

), and overall shotmaking (42% from 10-16, 45% from 16-3p!) can let you trot lineups that would otherwise be bad offensively and let them focus more on the other end (but can you imagine pre-injuries Wade with a lightning quick first step with all that spacing?). He was unstoppable as it gets that year, so to reduce it to team ORTGs is just silly. There's so much more that factors into it.