*Update: Embiid commits to Team USA* (France gives Embiid til Oct 10th to commit)

[DrPampiloni]

Reading the thread I feel compelled to say:

The idea that it's a character flaw to choose to play for the nation that:

1. You've lived in your entire adult life.
2. You've become a citizen of - and not because the nation is bribing you to play for their national team.
3. The only country your son has ever lived in.

Just seems a bit absurd to me.

I completely understand being frustrated if you're from Cameroon, but the idea that Embiid should have to uproot his life to go play for a nation that he doesn't actually live in or raise his child in, just doesn't seem human-realistic.

What do you mean uproot his life? He can in principle play for Cameroon without ever even setting foot on the country. Probably two weeks a year tops which I guess he spends there anyway. He is not travelling by boat or anything...

So be a mercenary for Cameroon? LOL

Embiid's only mistake is that he joined a super team, in itself it was his right to "choose" which country to represent since according to FIBA/nationality rules, he has that option.

This is not a great look for international basketball since we want more parity, but the storyline remains: is US back to being a dominant team like they were for decades? i don't think so, but there is still a considerable gap and that sucks, again because we all want to see other nations have a chance. Maybe they can have the World Cup until US takes those seriously.

Are you playing dumb or just being dumb? He was born and grew up the first 16 years of his life in the country, in a Cameroonian family. He moved to the US sponsored by a former Cameroonian basketball player. Mercenary my ass. I was just hinting at the fact that FIBA basketball is played in the summer on some neutral ground (example: Paris Olympics) so it was ludicrous to state that Embiid would have to uproot his family to represent Cameroon.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't think USA basketball (even if they bring their A team) is steamrolling any of Serbia, Germany, Canada, Australia or even Spain at full strength. Those times are over. But we will see.

[durden_tyler]

What do you mean uproot his life? He can in principle play for Cameroon without ever even setting foot on the country. Probably two weeks a year tops which I guess he spends there anyway. He is not travelling by boat or anything...

So be a mercenary for Cameroon? LOL

Embiid's only mistake is that he joined a super team, in itself it was his right to "choose" which country to represent since according to FIBA/nationality rules, he has that option.

This is not a great look for international basketball since we want more parity, but the storyline remains: is US back to being a dominant team like they were for decades? i don't think so, but there is still a considerable gap and that sucks, again because we all want to see other nations have a chance. Maybe they can have the World Cup until US takes those seriously.

Are you playing dumb or just being dumb? He was born and grew up the first 16 years of his life in the country, in a Cameroonian family. He moved to the US sponsored by a former Cameroonian basketball player. Mercenary my ass. I was just hinting at the fact that FIBA basketball is played in the summer on some neutral ground (example: Paris Olympics) so it was ludicrous to state that Embiid would have to uproot his family to represent Cameroon.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't think USA basketball (even if they bring their A team) is steamrolling any of Serbia, Germany, Canada, Australia or even Spain at full strength. Those times are over. But we will see.

Sure, not Dream Team quality levels. But still a considerable gap.

[Mephariel]

China and India don't have basketball tradition like US and Serbia. So why bring them up?
Secondly, what do you mean 7 game series?
The Olympics are also a single elimination tournament.
Do you want the Olympics and FIBA tournaments to be series? It cannot happen because it will take 2 months.
Serbia has beaten the US twice in world championships in the last 20 years and one of them was in the United States in 2002.
It ain't a small thing for such a new nation (created in 1991).

That is my point. You are bragging about beating the USA in the world championships. First, we don't send our best players in the world championships. Second, it is a single elimination tournament. At some point, team USA is going to lose. Just like top seeded college teams will lose. It is just basic statistics that you are eventually going to have an off night, bad chemistry, an injury, or your opponent shoots lights out. And even in this format, when we sent our best players, like in the Olympics, we win majority of the time. Imagine if it was actually a 7 game series. How many teams will beat team USA in a seven game series?

And when you said basketball tradition, that is my point. India have a lot of people, and they don't have good basketball players. You think if they have the tradition, they will be better than the USA? It just doesn't translate like that. Jamaica is a tiny nation with great runners. If they are a bigger nation, does that mean they will have infinitely amount of good runners? No. Because the economy will be different. People have more opportunities to do other things and they may not even be interested in running. You will always find outliers with smaller countries. Like the Dutch is incredible in speed skating. But you can't really predict how it will scale up if the country is different.

Lastly, I want to emphasize that Serbia beat the USA a couple of time in a single game. Yes that means something, but in a larger sense it doesn't. Statistically the same team isn't going to win all the time. The best college basketball team doesn't always win in the NCAA tournament. And winning the tournament doesn't automatically means you have a better college basketball program than another team.

Yeah sorry for jumping in, I'm just interested in this topic

I agree with the population thing. If you shrink the US down to Serbia's size, you get something like the State of Missouri. This means now your best players are Jayson Tatum and Michael Porter Jr, well guess what? With some well fitting role players around them, that's still enough to win a World Cup. Might actually even be just as good or better than that last Team USA, because in basketball there comes a point where you're getting diminishing returns if you keep shoving more talent in the same roster. Plus the roles would be better and clearer, you wouldn't have to solve riddles with usage, or explaining who is the star on this team. Take Ingram for example, he was basically redundant this summer, he didn't make a difference. I mean Damian fkn Lillard was almost redundant the last time he played FIBA. What the giant talent pool has done for Team USA is that it's given them the oportunity to **** around with Team A, B, C, D, which in the grand scheme of things is doesn't matter, there's enough talent in all of those teams. I mean I bet that you could win a World Cup just with the Americans who play in the Euroleague, I'm not joking at all. Maybe not every time, but you would win some.

My point is, comparing talent is not the interesting discussion coming out of those international competitions. The NBA does that better than anybody, the NBA is a talent competition, the more you stack the more you win. You don't need FIBA to see who is more talented.

What you, as an (I assume) American NBA fan do need FIBA for, is as a sanity check. To see if the NBA has gone too far with the rules and the bad habits. To check if NBA management and coaches are too shielded from international competition and are basically taking the piss at this point. What do I mean? You talk about 7 games. I understand those teams and players are tuned for that, but man, you shouldn't need long conferences and video sessions to make basic changes in the way you play. You should be ready, and your team should be disciplined enough to listen and apply what you tell them. Your man Kerr couldn't even get his players to box out, and I'm sure it's not for lack of trying, he probably told them until he was blue in the face. We're talking about Kerr, Spo, Lue, the absolute top US coaches, and pretty much every single team they faced was running circles around their strategy, actions, ball and body movement, defensive coverages, and just generall overall team discipline. It was vanilla coaching at best, and the toppings were super talented players with bad habits making mistakes left and right.

That is the interesting discussion that is worth having, not that dick swinging thing we're having in this forum. "Oh NBA and USA has the most talent", yeah no **** Sherlock. What about everything else? Readiness, coaching, discipline, roster construction, strategy, innovation, just basic fkn teamwork? This is the kind of dysfunctionality that an international tournament has the ability to test and expose, it's when you put people out of their comfort zone that you're really testing them, not when they are safe within their circle jrk

I am sorry, but there is a reason the odds of predicting the perfect NCAA bracket is 1 in 9.2 quintillion. In a single game elimination tournament, the best team doesn't always win. There are some legendary coaches in college basketball and they are in some of the finest programs in the country, including recruiting top tier talent. But those programs lose in the tournament year after year. So while the USA team should absolutely be more ready, and make basic changes, and all that, it doesn't mean the lesser team can't beat them. You don't have to be better than team USA, just better in that game.

And let's not overexaggerate things. There were many things wrong with team USA, coaching and players. But European coaches are not running circles around NBA coaches. There is nothing they are running today that is the NBA doesn't know.

[picc]

I don't want the Olympics to be easy for team USA. If Embiid had committed to France I think it would have improved the competitive balance of the tournament and made for a more entertaining product overall.

I also don't like the idea we need to recruit ringers to help us win. If Bam and AD isn't enough to win, then we should lose.

[Nuntius]

And sure, each of those teams you mentioned is missing one or two guys. We were missing a LOT more than that. And we'd have to put together at least 4 teams of our best players before someone like Austin Reeves or Bobby Portis or Walker Kessler made it. Hence D team.

Realgm just did our ranking of the 25 best players, and Edwards is the only one who made that team. Most of the rest of that team wasn't even nominated. D team.

Let's put this to the test, shall we?

First of all, the sentence in bold is flat out incorrect. Anthony Edwards was not the only one who made that team. Tyrese Haliburton also made that list. Here's the list, by the way:

RealGM Top 25 Players 2023-24:
1) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 72%
2) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 61%
3) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 42%
4) Steph Curry (GSW) - 42%
5) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 43%
6) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 45%
7) Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (OKC) - 37%
8) Kevin Durant (PHX) - 34%
9) LeBron James (LAL) - 31%
10) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 30%
11) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 34%
12) Devin Booker (PHX) - 43%
13) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 39%
14) Damian Lillard (POR) - 47%
15) Anthony Edwards (MIN) - 26%
16) Tyrese Haliburton (IND) - 19%
17) Paul George (LAC) - 23%
18) Donovan Mitchell (CLE) - 27%
19) Ja Morant (MEM) - 22%
20) Jamal Murray (DEN) - 31%
21) Pascal Siakam (TOR) - 19%
22) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 23%
23) Jaylen Brown (BOS) - 28%
24) Domantas Sabonis (SAC) - 26%
25) De'Aaron Fox (SAC) - 26%

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2320792&p=108302548#p108302548

It's ok, you forgot Haliburton, these mistakes happen. Edwards and Haliburton were listed back to back, at #15 and #16. So, let's see who could the US have on the roster that would be higher ranked than those two.

Obviously, we are excluding Jokic, Giannis, Luka and SGA as they are not American. That leaves the following players:

Curry, Embiid, Tatum, KD, LeBron, Butler, AD, Booker, Kawhi and Lillard. That's 10 players. Out of those 10 players, only Tatum, Embiid and Booker are younger than 30 right now.

These are the ages of these players by the time the Olympics roll around:

Curry: 36
Embiid: 30
Tatum: 26
KD: 35
LeBron: 39
Butler: 34
AD: 31
Booker: 27
Kawhi: 33
Lillard: 34

More than that, all of them will be playing in teams that have title aspirations. That means that most of these players will be playing until late April and the ones that really succeed this year will be playing until mid June. Do you know when the Olympic basketball tournament starts? July 27th.

This means that these players will only have around 1 and a half month of rest before the tournament starts. If you factor in the training camp and the preparation friendlies then we're probably talking about a bit less than a month for most of them.

Tatum and Booker will probably be fine since they're still young and relatively healthy. The rest, though? How likely is it that they will be 100% ready to go after a grueling NBA season + playoffs with such a short time to rest? Heck, how many of them were healthy and 100% ready to go after this year's playoffs? How many of them played through injuries or were forced to miss time when it mattered?

This is why I take issue when people say that you sent your "D team" to the WC this summer. You didn't. By RealGM's voting, Edwards and Haliburton are both top 20 players. Mikal Bridges, Jalen Brunson and Jaren Jackson Jr. all made the final votes of RealGM's top 25 as well which puts them in the top 30 (based on the post I'm linking to). Brandon Ingram has made the RealGM's top 30 twice which means that he tends to oscillate between top 30 and top 40. Paolo Banchero just won rookie of the year.

Edwards, Hali, Bridges, Brunson, JJJ, Ingram and Banchero are not a "D team". They are all pretty damn good.

Sure, this summer's team had some role players in it. Guys like Bobby Portis and Walker Kessler were brought in exactly to shore up this squad's lack of size, Josh Hart was brought in for his perimeter defense and rebounding from the wing/guard slot and Cam Johnson/Austin Reaves were brought in for their shooting. Sure, those players aren't stars but a team does need role players that can provide what these players provide. Their inclusion doesn't really weaken the team. Fewer stars doesn't mean weaker team.

Given the circumstances (the age of your best players, the fact that the US does not care about the WC et cetera) this really was one of the best teams you could have sent this summer.

The exercise was if we put together our best teams possible, the team we sent wouldn’t have been anything close to what we sent.

The exercise is an exercise in futility, though. How many times has the US sent its best team possible? Once or twice? For a number of reasons (many of them I mentioned in that post), it is very rare for the US to send its best team possible. Therefore, what you can do is to send the best team plausible. There is a difference between plausible and possible.

All your excuses and hemming and hawing about players needing rest is irrelevant here. And my exact quotes was And we'd have to put together at least 4 teams of our best players before someone like Austin Reeves or Bobby Portis or Walker Kessler made it. Hence D team. It’s funny you are so quick to tell me where Brunson and Bridges would have made the team who I never mentioned. But somehow failed to address the ones I did. Gee, I wonder why?

And yes I forgot about Haliburton. My bad. Doesn’t change that the overall team we sent is our D TEAM.

Excuses? Nah, you got it wrong. I was simply laying out the context. You want to know how an excuse sounds like?

"We only lost cause we don't care and send our D team".

Now, THAT is an excuse

[Nuntius]

I am sorry, but there is a reason the odds of predicting the perfect NCAA bracket is 1 in 9.2 quintillion. In a single game elimination tournament, the best team doesn't always win.

Yep. Welcome to the world of sports. That's how it works in the plurality (if not the majority) of team sports in the world. Most tournaments use a single game elimination format and therefore the best team doesn't always win. That's just how it is and that's one of the reasons why those tournaments tend to be so exciting.

[Pachinko_]

And let's not overexaggerate things. There were many things wrong with team USA, coaching and players. But European coaches are not running circles around NBA coaches. There is nothing they are running today that is the NBA doesn't know.

I'm sure they know, but when you can't even get your player to box out then the coaches are obviously not the only problem.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

And let's not overexaggerate things. There were many things wrong with team USA, coaching and players. But European coaches are not running circles around NBA coaches. There is nothing they are running today that is the NBA doesn't know.

I'm sure they know, but when you can't even get your player to box out then the coaches are obviously not the only problem.

to be honest in my life I've seen more stuff stolen from Europe to the NBA than the opposite. That's because the NBA is a closed system with less built in variety and quite copycat culture.
You should watch some games of the Yugo national team in like 1990 and their 5 out system, how modern it looks compared to similar stuff run in the NBA at the time.
Even the ssol D'Antoni brought it was something he was running in Europe with Henry Williams first and Tyus Edney later.

Not saying NBA coaches are bad, but it's not an environment that facilitates extreme innovation.

[Pachinko_]

And let's not overexaggerate things. There were many things wrong with team USA, coaching and players. But European coaches are not running circles around NBA coaches. There is nothing they are running today that is the NBA doesn't know.

I'm sure they know, but when you can't even get your player to box out then the coaches are obviously not the only problem.

to be honest in my life I've seen more stuff stolen from Europe to the NBA than the opposite. That's because the NBA is a closed system with less built in variety and quite copycat culture.
You should watch some games of the Yugo national team in like 1990 and their 5 out system, how modern it looks compared to similar stuff run in the NBA at the time.
Even the ssol D'Antoni brought it was something he was running in Europe with Henry Williams first and Tyus Edney later.

Not saying NBA coaches are bad, but it's not an environment that facilitates extreme innovation.

I watched them live

[art_tatum]

France should rescind his citizenship lol. What use does he have for them then if his "extraordinary talents" won't even benefit the French people. Actually he is harming the French by playing against them. Plus he has no ties there so it's not like they have to put up with it.

[California Gold]

Once again USA wins.

Best country in the world.

[Yuri Vaultin]

Embiid is a front running coward. Dude is so desperate to win for the first time at any level that he's pulling a Durant. Hope he gets as ridiculed as KD did for joining the Warriors.

Dude is weak.

[tdotrep2]

eww

[MagicMamba88]

Read on Twitter

[SWedd523]

Is the outrage just because he chose Team USA?

Seems kind of unnecessarily salty.

Was there this much outrage when Jordan Clarkson joined Team Philippines? Eric Gordon with the Bahamas? Kyle Anderson? KAT? etc. etc. etc.

[Yuri Vaultin]

Is the outrage just because he chose Team USA?

Seems kind of unnecessarily salty.

Was there this much outrage when Jordan Clarkson joined Team Philippines? Eric Gordon with the Bahamas? Kyle Anderson? KAT? etc. etc. etc.

He did the equivalent of what Durant did when joining the Warriors. No one cares about the guys you've listed - they weren't getting invites by USA.

Embbid was born and raised in Cameroon and spent the majority of his life there. He joined USA because he doesn't think he can win with France or Cameroon. That's the issue. No pride. No spine. No courage.

[JayMKE]

Is the outrage just because he chose Team USA?

Seems kind of unnecessarily salty.

Was there this much outrage when Jordan Clarkson joined Team Philippines? Eric Gordon with the Bahamas? Kyle Anderson? KAT? etc. etc. etc.

The same people were "outraged" that Lebron wants to play again for Team USA too, its just pure sour grapes.

[SWedd523]

Is the outrage just because he chose Team USA?

Seems kind of unnecessarily salty.

Was there this much outrage when Jordan Clarkson joined Team Philippines? Eric Gordon with the Bahamas? Kyle Anderson? KAT? etc. etc. etc.

He did the equivalent of what Durant did when joining the Warriors. No one cares about the guys you've listed - they weren't getting invites by USA.

Embbid was born and raised in Cameroon and spent the majority of his life there. He joined USA because he doesn't think he can win with France or Cameroon. That's the issue. No pride. No spine. No courage.

So it's just because he's good and Team USA is good. Got it. Hypocritical to say the least but that's fine I guess.

Have any of the guys I listed spent any time whatsoever in the countries they play for?

"Born and raised"

Has Embiid played any games for the Cameroon National Team?

What about Klay Thompson talking about playing for the Bahamas in the Olympics, having already spent time with Team USA? Any outrage there?

[Johnny Bball]

Once again USA wins.

Best country in the world.

"I don't know wtf you're talking about. Yosemite?"

[DrPampiloni]

Is the outrage just because he chose Team USA?

Seems kind of unnecessarily salty.

Was there this much outrage when Jordan Clarkson joined Team Philippines? Eric Gordon with the Bahamas? Kyle Anderson? KAT? etc. etc. etc.

The same people were "outraged" that Lebron wants to play again for Team USA too, its just pure sour grapes.

You are just making stuff up. Nobody is outraged Lebron wants to play.