T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread

[flaco]

Still early days, but 2023-24 Porzingis looks like a steal at just 11.3 FGA.



If these numbers hold, he'll likely be my #1 target for a stretch 5 whenever I draft Giannis. Btw, I believe the Bucks should have gone after him. Brook Lopez isn't getting any younger. Sooner or later, they'll need to find a replacement. Porzingis was definitely a realistic target. Lillard - Giannis - Porzingis would have been an amazing big 3.

[durantbird]

Still early days, but 2023-24 Porzingis looks like a steal at just 11.3 FGA.



If these numbers hold, he'll likely be my #1 target for a stretch 5 whenever I draft Giannis. Btw, I believe the Bucks should have gone after him. Brook Lopez isn't getting any younger. Sooner or later, they'll need to find a replacement. Porzingis was definitely a realistic target. Lillard - Giannis - Porzingis would have been an amazing big 3.

Actually what we see right now from Milwaukee is as good as Lillard Giannis looks on paper, and seems like a classic draft two man combo, they struggle to mesh their abilities into a winning formula in reality. The defensive abilities Holiday brought were more important, and two dominant players like Lillard and Giannis can sometimes mean the combination is less than the sum of all parts.

I do believe it's something time can sort out, and previous non ideal combos like Kobe Shaq did coexist, but a shooter alongside Giannis might be effective to some extent if he's too ball dominant.

[Fadeaway_J]

Still early days, but 2023-24 Porzingis looks like a steal at just 11.3 FGA.



If these numbers hold, he'll likely be my #1 target for a stretch 5 whenever I draft Giannis. Btw, I believe the Bucks should have gone after him. Brook Lopez isn't getting any younger. Sooner or later, they'll need to find a replacement. Porzingis was definitely a realistic target. Lillard - Giannis - Porzingis would have been an amazing big 3.

Actually what we see right now from Milwaukee is as good as Lillard Giannis looks on paper, and seems like a classic draft two man combo, they struggle to mesh their abilities into a winning formula in reality. The defensive abilities Holiday brought were more important, and two dominant players like Lillard and Giannis can sometimes mean the combination is less than the sum of all parts.

I do believe it's something time can sort out, and previous non ideal combos like Kobe Shaq did coexist, but a shooter alongside Giannis might be effective to some extent if he's too ball dominant.

I figured there would be some growing pains. Flaco has pointed out in the past that Giannis rarely functions as a roll man in real life.

The real concern is how bad they are defensively, which is even worse than I expected so far - and I expected it to be bad.

[durantbird]

Just came across Shaq's 04' season. Costs only 14.1 FGA, much less than his top seasons price. Is he really that far this year than 00' or 01'?

What are your thoughts about using this season, assuming you have another great scorer like peak Kobe/Tracy/Wade.

[Snakebites]

Just came across Shaq's 04' season. Costs only 14.1 FGA, much less than his top seasons price. Is he really that far this year than 00' or 01'?

What are your thoughts about using this season, assuming you have another great scorer like peak Kobe/Tracy/Wade.

I think his peak in LA is special enough to justify the cost.

Among his cheap years I would prefer 2005 to 2004. He played with more fire and motivation and was second in MVP voting.

By 2004 injuries and other issues had taken their toll.

2004 or 2005 Shaq is worth using in these games but not worth where he’s normally picked IMO.

[Fadeaway_J]

Have to be honest, I really wish we could find a way to resolve these games that didn't involve voting. I try to vote on every matchup, but it's not something I particularly enjoy or even feel I'm especially qualified to do. Then with the reduced participation some of these threads can just drag on for days.

[Square]

Have to be honest, I really wish we could find a way to resolve these games that didn't involve voting. I try to vote on every matchup, but it's not something I particularly enjoy or even feel I'm especially qualified to do. Then with the reduced participation some of these threads can just drag on for days.

I agree with this. One slightly off the wall idea would be to use ChatGPT to decide the matchups. (It's kind of dumb and personally I wouldn't use it for anything important, but for a game like this, sure.) I'm sure I'd get annoyed at its decisions, but I do for the human judges too.... One issue is that it seems like it only has data from Jan. 2022 and earlier, so it would not know about any developments since then.

My assessment is that it's a worse judge than a smart human, but the smart humans seem like they are getting tired of judging these matchups anyway...

Here's an example of a "dialogue" I had with it. (Blue text is me, black is ChatGPT.) I used Laimbeer's and lilroddyb's teams from the low fga draft.



I will give you two fictional basketball teams, made up of players from different years. Each player will be listed with the year he is taken from and the number of minutes he plays in the rotation. Wait until I have presented both teams. Then tell me which team you think would win, based on overall assessments of player quality, team dynamics like shooting and defense, etc.


Sure, I'd be happy to help with that! Just let me know the two teams and their respective player compositions when you're ready.

First team.
David Robinson ( 1998 )
Boris Diaw ( 2013 )
Paul Pierce ( 2010 )
Hersey Hawkins ( 1998 )
Magic Johnson ( 1985 )

Ben Wallace ( 2009 ) 3.0
Jared Dudley ( 2010 ) 6.0
Mike Miller ( 2013 ) 3.9

David Robinson (36) / Ben Wallace (12)
Boris Diaw (30) / Jared Dudley (18)
Paul Pierce (38) / Jared Dudley (10)
Hersey Hawkins (26) / Mike Miller (22)
Magic Johnson (38) / Hersey Hawkins (10)



Got it, that's Team 1. And the second team?

C: Bill Walton 38 min / Dikembe Mutombo 10 min
Pf: Robert Horry 38 min / Kyle Anderson 10 min
Sf: Jimmy Butler 38 min / Kyle Anderson 10 min
Sg: Manu Ginobili 24 min / Brent Barry 24 min
Pg: Nate McMillan 36 min / Manu Ginobili 12 min

2005 Manu Ginobili
2002 Robert Horry
1996 Nate McMillan
2005 Dikembe
2022 Jimmy Butler
1977 Bill Walton
2017 Kyle Anderson
2006 Brent Barry


Thanks for providing the compositions. Let me analyze both teams:

Team 1:

David Robinson (1998): Strong presence in the paint, both offensively and defensively. Great rebounder and shot blocker.
Boris Diaw (2013): Versatile player with excellent passing and scoring ability. Can play multiple positions effectively.
Paul Pierce (2010): Proven scorer and clutch performer. Capable of creating his own shot and scoring from anywhere on the court.
Hersey Hawkins (1998): Solid shooter with good defensive skills. Provides spacing on the floor.
Magic Johnson (1985): Legendary playmaker with exceptional court vision and leadership. Can control the tempo of the game and set up his teammates effectively.

This team has a good balance of scoring, playmaking, and defense, with strong leadership from Magic Johnson.

Team 2:

Bill Walton (1977): Dominant center with great passing skills and shot-blocking ability.
Robert Horry (2002): Big-game player known for hitting clutch shots and playing tough defense.
Jimmy Butler (2022): Elite two-way player with scoring ability and lockdown defense.
Manu Ginobili (2005): Dynamic scorer and playmaker off the bench. Provides energy and creativity.
Nate McMillan (1996): Defensive-minded point guard who can distribute the ball effectively and control the pace of the game.

This team is anchored by strong defensive players like Bill Walton, Dikembe Mutombo, and Jimmy Butler, with experienced role players like Robert Horry and Nate McMillan.

Based on the analysis, it seems like Team 1 has a slight edge in overall talent and cohesion. They have a mix of scoring, playmaking, and defensive prowess, led by the legendary Magic Johnson. Team 2, while strong defensively, may struggle to match the offensive firepower and versatility of Team 1. Therefore, I would give the edge to Team 1 in this matchup.

Seems like you ignored the bench players. Was that on purpose?

You're right; I focused more on the starting lineup and didn't delve into the bench players as much. Let's factor them in:

Team 1 Bench:

Ben Wallace (2009): Defensive stalwart and rebounder, provides energy off the bench.
Jared Dudley (2010): Versatile forward who can stretch the floor with his shooting.
Mike Miller (2013): Sharpshooter who can knock down three-pointers and provide scoring punch off the bench.

Team 2 Bench:

Dikembe Mutombo (2005): Elite shot blocker and rim protector, adds depth to the frontcourt.
Kyle Anderson (2017): Versatile forward with the ability to handle the ball and play multiple positions.
Brent Barry (2006): Three-point specialist and solid perimeter defender.

Considering the bench players, both teams have solid depth and role players who can contribute in various ways. Team 1 has more scoring options off the bench with players like Jared Dudley and Mike Miller, while Team 2 boasts defensive presence with Dikembe Mutombo and perimeter shooting with Brent Barry.

Taking the bench into account, Team 1 still maintains a slight edge in overall talent and versatility, especially with the scoring punch they can bring off the bench. However, Team 2's bench provides strong defensive options that could make an impact in certain matchups. So, considering the entire rosters, I would still give the edge to Team 1 in this matchup.

[migya]

One way is to have an announcement thread in the Players Comparison forum and run the playoffs for each game their, with posters there voting on the matchups.

[flaco]

Love both these ideas! I'm all for trying something different. Migya's idea might also help us attract new drafters.

Speaking of new drafters, I'd be intrigued to allow ChatGPT to draft its own team. Curious to see the end result of that experiment.

[durantbird]

Lol I also asked ChatGPT in the past about matchups. I think it usually just favors the team with most talent and somewhat ignores fit and how the teams match up against each other. It may be easier to learn how to build a winning team according to GPT, and be less worried about specific matchups and defensive adjustments.

Another way to make voting more simple is to use rankings. We done that in the past, we lose a lot of the fun in the process I believe. But it's much easier than running matchups.

[durantbird]

Lol I also asked ChatGPT in the past about matchups. I think it usually just favors the team with most talent and somewhat ignores fit and how the teams match up against each other. It may be easier to learn how to build a winning team according to GPT, and be less worried about specific matchups and defensive adjustments.

Another way to make voting more simple is to use rankings. We done that in the past, we lose a lot of the fun in the process I believe. But it's much easier than running matchups.

Another option we can try is adding a pool to the matchup post once writeups are submitted. Matchup will be decided by the poll

[dreamshake34]

I don’t know where to drop this so hoping this is the best thread for it…

Do you guys ever do any “GM” focused games/exercises using the current landscape of the NBA? The historical draft games are a lot of fun but it would be fun to try out a game where everyone picks a team and you “GM” it essentially making trades with other GMs to improve your team or rebuild for the future. We could set up a group for it on discord even. Finding 30 GMs seems impossible so I would think there would need to be a consolidation draft or just straight up delete teams from existence.

[Snakebites]

I don’t know where to drop this so hoping this is the best thread for it…

Do you guys ever do any “GM” focused games/exercises using the current landscape of the NBA? The historical draft games are a lot of fun but it would be fun to try out a game where everyone picks a team and you “GM” it essentially making trades with other GMs to improve your team or rebuild for the future. We could set up a group for it on discord even. Finding 30 GMs seems impossible so I would think there would need to be a consolidation draft or just straight up delete teams from existence.

Games like the one you describe were the original reason this board was created.

They slowly declined in popularity, but there was a time when you could reliably get 30 players. I never cared for them personally.

[dreamshake34]

I don’t know where to drop this so hoping this is the best thread for it…

Do you guys ever do any “GM” focused games/exercises using the current landscape of the NBA? The historical draft games are a lot of fun but it would be fun to try out a game where everyone picks a team and you “GM” it essentially making trades with other GMs to improve your team or rebuild for the future. We could set up a group for it on discord even. Finding 30 GMs seems impossible so I would think there would need to be a consolidation draft or just straight up delete teams from existence.

Games like the one you describe were the original reason this board was created.

They slowly declined in popularity, but there was a time when you could reliably get 30 players. I never cared for them personally.

Wow. Wish I was around for that. Why didn’t you care for them if you don’t mind me asking? I may start putting some soft DM feelers out to users on here and see if they be interested at all in something like this. If there’s enough interest (like 10-15 people) I think that be enough to give it a shot. Seems like great timing too with the NBA playoffs almost over.


What would be even better would be like a historical version of this. Though it looks like that’s what that 2010s gmat project was that’s pinned and looks like that flamed out sadly

[Snakebites]

I don’t know where to drop this so hoping this is the best thread for it…

Do you guys ever do any “GM” focused games/exercises using the current landscape of the NBA? The historical draft games are a lot of fun but it would be fun to try out a game where everyone picks a team and you “GM” it essentially making trades with other GMs to improve your team or rebuild for the future. We could set up a group for it on discord even. Finding 30 GMs seems impossible so I would think there would need to be a consolidation draft or just straight up delete teams from existence.

Games like the one you describe were the original reason this board was created.

They slowly declined in popularity, but there was a time when you could reliably get 30 players. I never cared for them personally.

Wow. Wish I was around for that. Why didn’t you care for them if you don’t mind me asking? I may start putting some soft DM feelers out to users on here and see if they be interested at all in something like this. If there’s enough interest (like 10-15 people) I think that be enough to give it a shot. Seems like great timing too with the NBA playoffs almost over.


What would be even better would be like a historical version of this. Though it looks like that’s what that 2010s gmat project was that’s pinned and looks like that flamed out sadly

I personally didn't enjoy the trading aspect of the game- PM's and negotiation and stuff.

Back in the day there absolutely were folks who ate that sort of thing up though. Ask Madness about it. He was big into those types of games back in the day.

[wackbone]

Games like the one you describe were the original reason this board was created.

They slowly declined in popularity, but there was a time when you could reliably get 30 players. I never cared for them personally.

Wow. Wish I was around for that. Why didn’t you care for them if you don’t mind me asking? I may start putting some soft DM feelers out to users on here and see if they be interested at all in something like this. If there’s enough interest (like 10-15 people) I think that be enough to give it a shot. Seems like great timing too with the NBA playoffs almost over.


What would be even better would be like a historical version of this. Though it looks like that’s what that 2010s gmat project was that’s pinned and looks like that flamed out sadly

I personally didn't enjoy the trading aspect of the game- PM's and negotiation and stuff.

Back in the day there absolutely were folks who ate that sort of thing up though. Ask Madness about it. He was big into those types of games back in the day.

Yeah, MadNESS is absolutely the one to talk to about that.

On the other hand, over on the Knicks Board we just finished Season/Year 7 of a Simulation League. It's a lot to go into, feel free to look through some of this: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2298051