2019 Raptors vs 2024 Celtics

[Vampirate]

Lol yeah those Bucks and 76ers team should have been a walk in the park right? What a foolish argument. All you did here was **** on the Raptors. By the way, those same teams would have beat this year's Celtics.

I never said they should have been a walk in the park. But if the 2019 playoff Raptors were as dominant as some are claiming, then why did it take them 7 vs. Philly, 6 vs. MIL, and then 6 vs. a severely hobbled GSW? Why did the .500 Magic take a game off them?

I'm simply asking for some kind of argument for why this 2019 Raptors team was historically dominant. The only response I've received thus far has been, "Numbers don't matter."

I already said in this thread that it would be a hell of a series between the two, largely because of the dominance of Kawhi and the grittiness of the rest of the team.

We've never claimed we're the most dominant team (by championship standards). We had a dominant Defense though.

The Heat are definitely better than Orlando. As for 'why did the .500 Magic take a game off them?' well why did the Cavs take a game off the Celtics, or better yet, why did the Raptors take 2 games off Cleveland?

The 76ers were actually legit contenders that year, if not for Kawhi, Embiid and hey maybe even Ben might be looked at vastly different right now.

The Bucks had an in their prime Middleton and close to peak Giannis. And obviously were a much more difficult matchup than Indy is.

As for the GSW, without KD but with Klay they are still a championship caliber team. The Rockets couldn't beat them. Once Klay went down, they were no longer a championship team.

Yes there's been luck on that run, as had with Boston's current run and the Bucks championship run.

Anyways, here's a school for thought, if this year Cavs can take a game off the Celtics, that Raptors team could take more no?

[ITYSL]

Anyways, here's a school for thought, if this year Cavs can take a game off the Celtics, that Raptors team could take more no?

Oh yeah, of course! That Raptors team was no joke, and was the team I was cheering for once the Celtics were eliminated. I think this season's Celtics would beat the 2019 Raptors, but it would be far from a walk in the park. I'd put the 2019 Raptors over any team the Celtics have played this postseason, including the Mavs.

I think that any series between, say, this season's Celtics/Nuggets/Wolves and 2019's Raptors/Warriors, if healthy, would be a well-fought, close series. I think this year's Mavs could also be included in that mix, I just think they don't happen to match up well against the Celtics. Series isn't over of course.

[ITYSL]

Only thing embarrassing is the fact that this year's Boston crowd is easily one of the worst in NBA Finals history. Dead atmosphere in that building

I thought the same but I guess it's not actually true. There have been comments about how the broadcasts are lowering the crowd noise significantly so the commentators can be heard.

[Vampirate]

Anyways, here's a school for thought, if this year Cavs can take a game off the Celtics, that Raptors team could take more no?

Oh yeah, of course! That Raptors team was no joke, and was the team I was cheering for once the Celtics were eliminated. I think this season's Celtics would beat the 2019 Raptors, but it would be far from a walk in the park. I'd put the 2019 Raptors over any team the Celtics have played this postseason, including the Mavs.

I think that any series between, say, this season's Celtics/Nuggets/Wolves and 2019's Raptors/Warriors, if healthy, would be a well-fought, close series. I think this year's Mavs could also be included in that mix, I just think they don't happen to match up well against the Celtics. Series isn't over of course.

I mean that perfectly fine, it's just that some Celtic fans are saying it'd be over in 5, which is irritating to us lol.

If you want to say Celtics in say 6 or 7, while i'd give the Raptors the edge because of Kawhi himself, i'm not going to argue too much against it.

That Raptors team was great defensively, but wasn't that great offensively (when in comparison to other championship teams).

The other hidden ingredient here is when exactly are we facing each other?

Round 1, 2, 3?

The Earlier the series, the more it favors the Raps simply because Kawhi is on fresher legs.

If we faced each other right before the finals then it gets dicier for us as Kawhi is more likely worn down at that point.

[ITYSL]

I mean that perfectly fine, it's just that some Celtic fans are saying it'd be over in 5, which is irritating to us lol.

So a couple dumb takes.

Personally I'd say that claiming that the KG Celtics would take this Celtics team in 5 is even more ridiculous, considering how the KG Celtics (and the KG Celtics are my absolute favorite Celtics team) couldn't take anyone in 5 during their championship run. It took them 7 games to beat the Joe Johnson-led Hawks, but they'd beat this Celtics team in 5? Hmm, ok.

So I guess there are plenty of dumb takes to go around...

[dakomish23]

I give TOR the edge because of Kawhi. But on TOR’s depth, important to establish that FVV and OG were not the players they grew to be then. FVV wouldn’t make an all star team until 3 years later. OG’s game has expanded a ton. Siakam and Norm grew their games as well.

Raps had a lot of young players who have gone to grow their games, but it’s inaccurate to just assume that they were their fully developed selves sitting on the bench there. Again, I still take TOR because of Kawhi but important to call that out.

FVV was huge for them in their title run after his some was born if I’m remembering correctly

[Vampirate]

I give TOR the edge because of Kawhi. But on TOR’s depth, important to establish that FVV and OG were not the players they grew to be then. FVV wouldn’t make an all star team until 3 years later. OG’s game has expanded a ton. Siakam and Norm grew their games as well.

Raps had a lot of young players who have gone to grow their games, but it’s inaccurate to just assume that they were their fully developed selves sitting on the bench there. Again, I still take TOR because of Kawhi but important to call that out.

FVV was huge for them in their title run after his some was born if I’m remembering correctly

Yes, but FVV's son was born in the ECF, if the Raptors faced the Celtics in the ECSF, FVV would heavily struggle because his son wasn't born yet.

Logic.

[binjumper]

Raptors 2019 had the biggest scumbag fans ever. Cheering on an injury?

https://youtu.be/aFnFHX_XbWQ?si=xwMYpCO3H656bP_4

What does one individual fan have anything to do with the teams roster? are people really this clueless.

You can't hear the whole arena cheering on KD's injury? Can't you see how embarrassed Drake is?

gonna double down on something irrelevant nice. who gives a **** about drake and the arena was cheering for the big play on the other end. Anyone with sense won't be cheering a possible career ending injury, but hey if you want to generalize over one or two people then Boston isn't the right fanbase to be debating with. Just stop doing drugs with these comments.

[KamikazeK]

Y'all would pick literally any team over the Celtics.

[dakomish23]

I give TOR the edge because of Kawhi. But on TOR’s depth, important to establish that FVV and OG were not the players they grew to be then. FVV wouldn’t make an all star team until 3 years later. OG’s game has expanded a ton. Siakam and Norm grew their games as well.

Raps had a lot of young players who have gone to grow their games, but it’s inaccurate to just assume that they were their fully developed selves sitting on the bench there. Again, I still take TOR because of Kawhi but important to call that out.

FVV was huge for them in their title run after his some was born if I’m remembering correctly

Yes, but FVV's son was born in the ECF, if the Raptors faced the Celtics in the ECSF, FVV would heavily struggle because his son wasn't born yet.

Logic.

Using the word "logic" when you left out how well FVV played to make them a champion and then moving the goalposts to "ECSF"

[ChumboChappati]

Which of these teams is better? (Assuming Celtics go on to win)

2024 Cletics will sweep 2019 Raptors 4-0 and the scores will not be close.

[Vampirate]

FVV was huge for them in their title run after his some was born if I’m remembering correctly

Yes, but FVV's son was born in the ECF, if the Raptors faced the Celtics in the ECSF, FVV would heavily struggle because his son wasn't born yet.

Logic.

Using the word "logic" when you left out how well FVV played to make them a champion and then moving the goalposts to "ECSF"

I'm a Raptors fan and am obviously meming lol.

You are arguing for a Raptor against a Raptor fan.

This would be equivalent if you wanted to meme on Melo and another fanbase started to defend Melo.

As for the whole meme he had a baby when facing off against the Bucks, not against the 76ers. While the baby was probably effecting him, the 76ers defence is most likely easily a step above the Bucks. Heck a lot of the Raptors struggled to score against the 76ers in that series, that team was no joke.

But on the real FVV would struggle to score against this Boston defence, similarly like he struggled to score against the 76ers (2019) and if he played against the 2019 Raptors sans him.

[ConSarnit]

Which of these teams is better? (Assuming Celtics go on to win)

2024 Cletics will sweep 2019 Raptors 4-0 and the scores will not be close.

I’ll bite: how are they sweeping the 2019 Raptors when they couldn’t sweep an 8th seed that was missing their best player and their starting point guard?

[brackdan70]

Which of these teams is better? (Assuming Celtics go on to win)

2024 Cletics will sweep 2019 Raptors 4-0 and the scores will not be close.

I’ll bite: how are they sweeping the 2019 Raptors when they couldn’t sweep an 8th seed that was missing their best player and their starting point guard?

The argument loses efficacy if you include Rozier lol. Your overall point is fair though Kawhi wouldn’t be swept.

[TheGeneral99]

Raptors:

Lowry > Holiday
Green < White
Kawhi > Tatum
Siakam = Brown
Gasol > Horford

Raptors bench of OG, Powell, Fred and Ibaka are also better than KP, Pritchard etc.

[TheGeneral99]

A hypothetical fantasy match-up is going to come down more to eye test in my opinion. Sure, it's possible we have more biases based off an eye test but If we use just numbers, the Celtics objectively had a far easier road to a Championship than the Raptors. That's going to obviously skew numbers more towards the Celtics favor as well. That Raptors team also took a while to peak, they struggled badly in the Sixers series and got down 2-0 to the Bucks before waking up. They played their best Basketball when it mattered the most.

I'm not saying the numbers don't matter at all but it's just really difficult for me to say this Celtics team is as great as the regular numbers say because of the lack of challenge they have faced these playoffs. You could say they are just that great but imo the teams they have faced just aren't that good along with missing key players to boot.

The flaw in your reasoning is that the Celtics have been dominant throughout the regular season and the playoffs:
- They had the best SRS (which takes into account strength of schedule) by a wide margin: link
- They had the best net rating by a wide margin: link
- They had the best net rating against EC teams by a wide margin: link
- They had the best net rating against WC teams by a wide margin: link
- They had the best net rating in home games by a wide margin: link
- They had the best net rating in away games by a wide margin: link
- They had the best win percentage against teams above .500, by a wide margin: link

I know, I know, we can't count the regular season numbers for the Raptors. Fine. But the numbers above show that the Celtics have been a historically dominant team this season. What shows that for the Raptors? Anything?

To just dismiss this dominance because of factors out of their control - their opponents thus far in the playoffs - is flawed reasoning. This is a team that has shown dominance all season long, in the regular season and in the playoffs, against all manner of opponents.

This is also a Raptors team that was taken to 6 games by a Warriors team that was missing KD for all but 11 minutes of the entire series, as well as Klay for 1 of the Raptors wins. So again, let's not pretend the Raptors were just some unstoppable buzzsaw in the playoffs that season, because they weren't.

I still do think it would be a hell of a series between the 2024 Celtics and the 2019 Raptors. You just can't dismiss the Kawhi superstar factor, combined with the absolute grittiness of the rest of the team.

The Raptors in 2019 were load managing Kawhi who missed 22 games, Lowry missed 17 games, Fred missed 18 games, Powell missed 22 games, OG missed 15 games etc. and they still won 58 games.

The Raptors beat an absolutely stacked Sixers team with a healthy Embiid, prime Butler, Simmons (when he was good), and Harris. In case you forgot, a healthy Butler last year almost single handedly beat the Celtics in the playoffs.

They also beat a stacked Milwaukee team that had the best record in the league with Giannis, prime Middleton, prime Lopez, Brogdon and Bledsoe.

[ConSarnit]

2024 Cletics will sweep 2019 Raptors 4-0 and the scores will not be close.

I’ll bite: how are they sweeping the 2019 Raptors when they couldn’t sweep an 8th seed that was missing their best player and their starting point guard?

The argument loses efficacy if you include Rozier lol. Your overall point is fair though Kawhi wouldn’t be swept.

Yeah, you’re right. Who wouldn’t rather have 35 year old Patty Mills playing over Rozier.

[HumbleRen]

Would be extremely close.

Raptors in 7 I reckon.

Raptors have the edge on depth but Celtics starting 5 is probably better ?

Kawhi was unstoppable though on top of being a top 5 defender in the playoffs.

[SK21209]

The 2019 Sixers and Bucks are getting a bit overrated in this discussion. 2019 Embiid is not 2023 or 2024 Embiid. Simmons was still standing in the dunker spot doing nothing in 4th quarters. 2019 Sixers Jimmy never hit the level of 2020 or 2023 playoffs Jimmy. That team was good and physically imposing, but ultimately not great. They needed a full offseason/season to work out some of the kinks offensively and never got it. The 2019 Bucks were a good regular team that wasn't ready to win deep in the playoffs yet. A better version of them won in 2021 and IMO is still one of the weaker champions in recent memory.

The 2019 Raptors were a remarkably complete team, the fit between their Top 7 (not counting OG since he was hurt, but throw him in there too) was excellent. Just a super smart, well-rounded team. But I think the Celtics' ceiling is higher with the ability to play a true 5-out while maintaining size.

[ChumboChappati]

Which of these teams is better? (Assuming Celtics go on to win)

2024 Cletics will sweep 2019 Raptors 4-0 and the scores will not be close.

I’ll bite: how are they sweeping the 2019 Raptors when they couldn’t sweep an 8th seed that was missing their best player and their starting point guard?

Holiday > Lowry
White > Green
Tatum = Kawhi
Brown > Siakam
KP > Gasol

It will be a sweep and Celtics will dominate Raptors; it will not be a pretty sight for Raptors fans.