Retro Player of the Year 1958-59 UPDATE — Bill Russell

[trelos6]

Yea Cousy just turned 96. By the way Pettit is also alive and 91 years old.

Pettit was recently on a podcast. He said some interesting things.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUUYm9iIHBldHRpdCBpbnRlcnZpZXc%3D

[trex_8063]

Way short on time this go-around, so might only do a POY ballot only....


Player of the Year
1. Bob Pettit - Crazy big year for him. He leads the league [by a WIDE margin] in PER and is second in WS/48, while playing a BIG 39.9 mpg. Leading the league in scoring (again, somewhat comfortable margin) at a super-impressive +6.18% rTS, and is distant 2nd to Russell in rpg. Still fairly impressive in the playoffs, too.

2. Bill Russell - As previously discussed: bbref may be over-estimating the Celtic DRtg while under-crediting their offense. That said, the Boston defense is SOOO much better than anyone, we could adjust the DRtg cited on bbref upward by +2......and they would STILL be better than 2nd place by -2.7.
That's absurd.
Additionally, Russell has become a legitimately HIGH efficiency scorer (on lowish volume, deferring more to the better offensive players around him) @ +3.52% rTS this year.
His rebounding in the playoffs is utterly monstrous (though stat-keeping at the time is highly suspect), and they carry through to the title. Absolutely cannot see going lower than this for Bill. Initially even had him #1, but I switched, given '59 is arguable as Pettit's absolutely PEAK, whereas it's probably not even in Bill's top 3.
fwiw, Russell does lead the league in both estimated BPM and estimated VORP this year.

3. Elgin Baylor - Is somewhat a flip with Schayes. Rookie Baylor was no joke, though, and I often think his defensive imprint is under-credited (maybe it's the rebounding??). He's one of the best rebounders in the league from the [mostly] SF position, scores an awful lot @ +3.09% rTS, OKish playmaker too. Lakers drastically overperform in the playoffs in no small part due to Baylor. His playoff metrics don't look great, but it's mostly because of the series against Boston. I initially had Baylor 4th for this year, but then I speculated that if they'd LOST in the division finals to the Hawks, that I'd probably have then been more inclined to put him 3rd (based on what his metrics were looking like through the first two rounds). So I don't want to penalize him for a lackluster Finals series (that the Lakers had no business or expectation of being there in the first place [and seemed to outplay Pettit in the div finals]).

4. Dolph Schayes - Anchoring probably the 2nd-best team in the rs, though his numbers are down a bit from the previous year. He has a pretty nice playoff run, though, as they off the Knicks and then go 7 games with the eventual champion (Schayes putting up an efficient 28.4 ppg and 13.1 rpg against Russell and the Celtics). That's pretty impressive. I can't see going lower than 4th (initially had him 3rd).

5. Paul Arizin - I almost went with Kenny Sears, but his playoff drop-off [tiny sample] is pretty dramatic, and there are additional question marks regarding his impact. Arizin's team is fairly disappointing, but boy his numbers are still awfully impressive this year. I don't see another clear better pick.

[AEnigma]

Way short on time this go-around, so might only do a POY ballot only....

Absolutely cannot see going lower than [#2] for Bill. Initially even had him #1, but I switched, given '59 is arguable as Pettit's absolutely PEAK, whereas it's probably not even in Bill's top 3.
fwiw, Russell does lead the league in both estimated BPM and estimated VORP this year.

I recognise that you being short on times means you might not respond for a bit.

I have never been a fan of this train of thought, and I struggle to see it being applied consistently for non-Russell players. You care more about the regular season and are not particularly title driven, so at least no inconsistency in that sense, but I can think of several spots where similar arguments could be made but I would expect more people to reflexively balk at them.

1993 Hakeem over Jordan: starting with the most defensible. Are you intending to vote Hakeem #1 this year?

(I could also extend the thought to Barkley, but I think you are one of his 1990 peak backers.)

1997/98 Malone over Jordan: Malone’s peak, obviously not Jordan’s peak, and you have frequently talked about how you think the Jazz were borderline robbed of a title in 1998. Are you intending to vote Malone #1 one of these years?

2005/07 Nash over Duncan: both years have a strong case as Nash’s peak and at least one of them is not a top three year for Duncan (2003 and 2002). Are you intending to vote Nash #1 one of those years?

1972 Frazier over Kareem: Frazier’s peak and arguably not one of Kareem’s three best (1974, 1977, and then potentially at least one of 1971, 1976, and 1980). Little different because neither win the title, but are you intending to vote Frazier #1 that year? And if the answer is no because Kareem was an easy MVP (in contrast with the other options mentioned), I can understand that but will then be curious about how you handle someone like 1964 Robertson in his MVP peak season.

Anyway, I know you feel gaps at the top are smaller than many of us do, but personally I do not see these two players on a remotely equal (or even adjacent) tier now that Russell is fully healthy and in his prime.

[ZeppelinPage]

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Bob Pettit
4. Bob Cousy
5. Elgin Baylor

Russell is the clear #1 for me here. Schayes dominates in the playoffs while injured and nearly defeats the champion Celtics. Pettit with another season scoring and rebounding but falters in the playoffs without Slater Martin. Cousy has a remarkable playmaking season, leading the Celtics' fast break, and had an all time Finals as a passer. Elgin would be higher but he played through a knee injury and still managed to help take the Lakers into the Finals.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Bob Cousy
2. Bob Pettit
3. Dolph Schayes

I'm giving Cousy the OPOY for his playmaking ability in the regular season and playoffs. His teammates really benefited from the way he could pressure a defense. Pettit and Schayes can certainly be placed #1 for how they can score, but I think this is one of Cousy's best seasons.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
2. Tom Gola
3. Woody Sauldsberry

Russell is the obvious choice. Gola probably deserves another year in the top 3, with his stealing and all-around defensive abilities. Sauldsberry might have been incredibly inefficient, but he was known to be a talented lockdown defender that would even defend Wilt Chamberlain later in his career.

[70sFan]

Also very short on time, but I want to vote quickly:

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Bob Pettit
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Cliff Hagan

HM: Bob Cousy

Russell is a clear choice for number 1 here and I don't find it particularly close.

Schayes Vs Pettit is a tough comparison, because this time I feel that Bob was a little better in the RS, but he didn't step up in the playoffs and got eliminated by far weaker team. Meanwhile Schayes had a tremendous series against Boston, I have some footage from the series that I hope I will find time to share with you. Schayes is just a tremendous all-around player.

Elgin vs Cliff is close to me, as I don't think Baylor was at his best already but I decided to put him ahead due to a carry job he accomplished with a legitimately weak team around him.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Dolph Shayes
2. Bob Pettit
3. Elgin Baylor

HM: Bob Cousy


Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
2. Tom Gola
3. Woody Sauldsberry

HM: Red Kerr

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 12 voters: Djoker, Trex, AEnigma, Eminence, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, IlikeShaiGuys, ShaqAttac, Zeppelin, 70sFan, and trelos. Trex, penbeast, IlikeShaiGuys, ShaqAttac, and eminence abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1958-59 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Bob Pettit (2)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bob Pettit    4   3   0    24     0.686
2. Elgin Baylor    1   2   1    12     0.343
3. Dolph Schayes   1    1    3     11    0.314
4. Bob Cousy   2    0    0      10     0.286
5. Larry Costello   0    1    0      3     0.086
6. Cliff Hagan   0    0    2      2     0.057
7. Richie Guerin   0    0    1      1     0.029

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Russell (3) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Russell   7    0    0     35     1.000
2. Tom Gola    0    3    1    10    0.286
3. Dolph Schayes    0    2    0      6    0.171
4. Woody Sauldsberry   0   1   2     5    0.143
5. Red Kerr    0    1    1      4    0.114
6. Walter Dukes    0    0    1      1    0.029
6. Jim Loscutoff    0    0    1      1    0.029
6. Vern Mikkelsen    0    0    1      1    0.029

Retro Player of the Year — Bill Russell

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  11  1  0  0  0   117    0.975
2. Dolph Schayes   0  7  2  3  0   68     0.567
3. Bob Pettit   1  4  3  4  0   65     0.542
4. Elgin Baylor   0  0  7  4  1   48    0.400
5. Bob Cousy   0  0  0  1  4   7   0.058
6. Cliff Hagan   0  0  0  0  5   5    0.042
7. Paul Arizin   0  0  0  0  2   2    0.017

In the prior project, there were 14 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With those two prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 23 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  22  1  0  0  0   227    0.987
2. Bob Pettit   1  13  5  4  0   138    0.600
3. Elgin Baylor   0  2  16  4  1   107    0.465
4. Dolph Schayes   0  7  2  4  1   72    0.313
5. Cliff Hagan   0  0  0  7  7   28    0.122
6. Bob Cousy   0  0  0  1  8   11   0.048
7. Paul Arizin   0  0  0  1  4   7    0.030
8. Kenny Sears   0  0  0  1  2   5    0.022
9. Frank Ramsey   0  0  0  1  0   3    0.013

1960 thread will open shortly.

[eminence]

Whew, justice for Dolph.

[One_and_Done]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 11 voters: Djoker, Trex, AEnigma, Eminence, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, IlikeShaiGuys, Zeppelin, 70sFan, and trelos. Trex, penbeast, IlikeShaiGuys, eminence abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1958-59 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Bob Pettit (2)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bob Pettit    4   3   0    24     0.644
2. Elgin Baylor    1   2   1    12     0.343
3. Dolph Schayes   1    1    3     11    0.314
4. Bob Cousy   2    0    0      10     0.286
5. Larry Costello   0    1    0      3     0.086
6. Cliff Hagan   0    0    2      2     0.057
7. Richie Guerin   0    0    1      1     0.029

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Russell (3) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Russell   7    0    0     35     1.000
2. Tom Gola    0    3    1    10    0.286
3. Dolph Schayes    0    2    0      6    0.171
4. Woody Sauldsberry    0    1    2      5    0.143
5. Red Kerr    0    1    1      4    0.114
6. Walter Dukes    0    0    1      1    0.029
6. Jim Loscutoff    0    0    1      1    0.029
6. Vern Mikkelsen    0    0    1      1    0.029

Retro Player of the Year — Bill Russell

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  10  1  0  0  0   107    0.973
2. Bob Pettit   1  4  3  3  0   62    0.564
3. Dolph Schayes   0  6  2  3  0   61    0.555
4. Elgin Baylor   0  0  6  4  1   43    0.391
5. Bob Cousy   0  0  0  1  4   7   0.064
6. Cliff Hagan   0  0  0  0  4   4    0.036
7. Paul Arizin   0  0  0  0  2   2    0.018

In the prior project, there were 13 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With those two prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 22 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares

1. Bill Russell  21  1  0  0  0   217    0.986
2. Bob Pettit   1  13  5  3  0   135    0.614
3. Elgin Baylor   0  2  15  4  1   102    0.464
4. Dolph Schayes   0  6  2  4  1   65    0.295
5. Cliff Hagan   0  0  0  7  6   27    0.123
6. Bob Cousy   0  0  0  1  8   11   0.050
7. Paul Arizin   0  0  0  1  4   7    0.032
8. Kenny Sears   0  0  0  1  2   5    0.023
9. Frank Ramsey   0  0  0  1  0   3    0.014

1960 thread will open shortly.

I voted. I'm just not going to vote a full ballot if I don't feel comfortable enough to distinguish between the granular differences in some of the lower level guys.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 11 voters: Djoker, Trex, AEnigma, Eminence, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, IlikeShaiGuys, Zeppelin, 70sFan, and trelos. Trex, penbeast, IlikeShaiGuys, eminence abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

I voted. I'm just not going to vote a full ballot if I don't feel comfortable enough to distinguish between the granular differences in some of the lower level guys.

Which is your right, but here I will direct you to what I include in every thread…

You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes

and then as an elaboration, what I explained in the initial post in the general project thread (which all voters are expected to read):

You can pick the awards on which you vote thread to thread, but you must complete a full ballot to be counted: 5 ranked spots for Player of the Year, 3 ranked spots for Offensive/Defensive Player of the Year.

This is not the first time I have discarded incomplete ballots — nor were you even the only person this thread to post an incomplete ballot*. The reason incomplete ballots are not accepted is because it affects point totalling and provides a disproportionate advantage to those for whom you did vote.

I am glad to see you actively participating though, so even if you spend the next fifteen threads logging incomplete ballots, you are not at risk of being marked as an inactive voter. If you think there are only a couple of players you could confidently support, that is fine; I just will not include that ballot in the totals.

*EDIT: That said, I am glad you made this post because it made me go back and check ShaqAttac’s ballot, which was incomplete when posted but evidently was updated. Good reminder of why I appreciate people telling me when they edit rather than just doing so subtly.

The results post has been updated accordingly.

[AEnigma]

Whew, justice for Dolph.

As predicted, largest departure thus far (and by far) from the previous project.

[Dutchball97]

Whew, justice for Dolph.

As predicted, largest departure thus far (and by far) from the previous project.

I think this also shows early votes can have a lot of impact when people aren't as familiar with the players. Schayes wasn't even a honorable mention for the first few posters (mostly due to the prior project being more focused around efficiency by the looks of it?), which also snowballed because there were so many posts without any explanation following. If Doc's final vote had been the first of the thread I'm pretty sure Schayes would've gotten more consideration from other voters.

I do think it's interesting how much higher as a whole we seem to be on Schayes. Maybe it's because we have the benefit of starting from the earlier seasons where we see him be one of the top guys right away and keep that up for about a decade. If the POY Shares for other players stays roughly the same (which I'm not that sure about) then it looks like Schayes is going to get into the top 10 on the overall shares list, which is remarkably higher than I expected him to be.

[Top10alltime]

Hey I know this is over long time but I wanted to share thoughts:

1958-59:
1. Russell: He will take this title next season is a big surprise to him though, he is prolly not FMVP though, he was great enough in RS, he should have b2b MVPs. I will say it is ok he isn't unanimous, the Celtics in PO dominated more on O than D (GOAT defender at -1.6 is bit underwhelming). His impact in RS is enough, argument against him is Celtics were 2-0 without him, (+14.4 rORtg, -5.5 rDRtg). I hold it enough against him to make it so he doesn't have to be the POY, but he left for only 2 games, so.... yeah he's my #1.

2. Petit: I am heading with Petit MVP of the szn, he was best player on O for season imo, 29.2 ppg is crazy, even if is not all that good in PO. He outplayed the second OPOY (to be fair, so did Hagan, whats up w this guys O). Petit somehow loses to Baylor though (that gives me questions about his defense if underrated or not).

3. Baylor: Turnaround in rookie season alone, terrible last seed team to finals, so don't blame for "just 2.6 offense and 1.6 defense turnaround". His defense is questionable, but his offense alone (what I'm going by) will put him at 3.

4. Schayes: Might have put him higher this season due to better O imo, but am huge believer in Baylor this season. Anchored incredible O in RS and PO, bad D tho keeps him at same spot. Also almost beat superteam celtics.

5. Cliff hagan: just an incredible offensive player statistically, and also incredible PO performer too. Most ppg in playoffs series even with petit around. Probably top three there

OPOY
1. Petit
2. Baylor
3. Schayes

DPOY
1. Russell
2. Dukes
3. Gola

[penbeast0]

Hey I know this is over long time but I wanted to share thoughts:

1958-59:
1. Russell: He will take this title next season is a big surprise to him though, he is prolly not FMVP though, he was great enough in RS, he should have b2b MVPs. I will say it is ok he isn't unanimous, the Celtics in PO dominated more on O than D (GOAT defender at -1.6 is bit underwhelming). His impact in RS is enough, argument against him is Celtics were 2-0 without him, (+14.4 rORtg, -5.5 rDRtg). I hold it enough against him to make it so he doesn't have to be the POY, but he left for only 2 games, so.... yeah he's my #1.

2. Petit: I am heading with Petit MVP of the szn, he was best player on O for season imo, 29.2 ppg is crazy, even if is not all that good in PO. He outplayed the second OPOY (to be fair, so did Hagan, whats up w this guys O). Petit somehow loses to Baylor though (that gives me questions about his defense if underrated or not).

3. Baylor: Turnaround in rookie season alone, terrible last seed team to finals, so don't blame for "just 2.6 offense and 1.6 defense turnaround". His defense is questionable, but his offense alone (what I'm going by) will put him at 3.

4. Schayes: Might have put him higher this season due to better O imo, but am huge believer in Baylor this season. Anchored incredible O in RS and PO, bad D tho keeps him at same spot. Also almost beat superteam celtics.

5. Cliff hagan: just an incredible offensive player statistically, and also incredible PO performer too. Most ppg in playoffs series even with petit around. Probably top three there

OPOY
1. Petit
2. Baylor
3. Schayes

DPOY
1. Russell
2. Dukes
3. Gola

You find Schayes to be a bad defender? That isn't his rep from what I remember of him, though Syracuse had other players as their defensive specialists/stoppers.

[prolific passer]

Yeah it sucks what happen to Slater. Royals and hawks were exchanging players that season with the hawks getting Lovellette and Si Green (I think Red threw a fit about those moves). Hawks should have went for McCarthy in that year with Slaters injury issues that season and they probably make the finals and have a good chance of defeating the Celtics who had a grind it out division/conference finals that went 7 games.