RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[nikster]

lol okay. They won a league best 62 games and had the league MVP. They had a starting lineup of All Stars Dan Majerle, Charles Barkley and Kevin Johnson. Had 4 players average 15+ pgg and 7 average 10+ pgg. The Suns averaged 113 ppg best int he league, next closet was Seattle at 108.

Think it's close to a wash, I dont think you can confidently say Suns were better. Scottie pippen was better than anybody Charles had beside him, Horace Grant was all defensive 2nd team, BJ Armstrong had a great finals and was all star the next year.

Chicago was coming off back to back championships, taking it easy in the regular season is expected for teams like that so the fact that Phoenix had a better record doesn't say much. Their ppg was also influenced by a relatively high pace (and Chicago's was slow). Offensive rating Suns had was 113.3, but Bulls were right behind them at 112.9.

Bulls won the championship so they were the "better team". But for the year the Suns were better. They did take Chicago to almost 7 games with Jordan averaging 40 pgg.

I don't know how much stock you can put into a regular season for a team coming off back to back titles. Did anybody have doubt Warriors were still the best team 17-18 and 18-19 despite not having the best record?

[LaLover11]

You speak this like it is fact....or somehow relevant to, well, anything

Are you saying MJ with that suns Team is beating Prime Barkley, Pippen, Grant etc and Jackson as coach?

There's no way

Yeah, Jordan on those Suns would probably beat Chicago with Barkley in his place, I'd imagine.

Not possible because Pippen would actually be guarding him, something he never experienced in his lifetime.

6'8 Pippen is a lockdown defender

MJ would lose at least 10ppg simply by Pippen guarding him a whole series.

Then he would have to Guard a Beast Mode Barkley
Nobody on that Suns team can guard that monster

[Stannis]

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Farcical. They were only a "super team" because he was on it. I'm not gonna bother listening to whatever stupid hot take Wright is vomiting today but last I checked Jordan has two gold medals to his name too and one of them was with college players so throw out the "he had no competition" nonsense too.

Let's just keep it real and I hope you agree.

Switch Barkley in 93 with MJ and the Barkley/Pippen/Phil Jackson Bulls would have beat MJ and the Suns

I don't get these arguments. It took like MJ what, 6 years to get his first ring? In that time, there was a lot of growing pains, including building chemistry with Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson. It's not like they were just there from the start.

I think the better question is this, switch Barkley and MJ in the 1984* draft.

[PistolPeteJR]

Michael won a gold as the best player on an armature winning team. Lebron never did that.

Watch on YouTube

Have to agree with this. MJ still won on an amateur roster.

Olympic golds matter. But we can't forget that the 2004 Olympic team struggled with LBJ. It wasn't until Kobe joined in 2008 where Team USA turned into a forever super team.

In the end, USA basketball is still miles ahead of other countries, to the point where there's no excuse of getting no gold.

The guy was 18 years old coming off the bench, playing 14mpg. This argument means nothing.

[tsherkin]

Not possible because Pippen would actually be guarding him, something he never experienced in his lifetime.

You mean other than every practice they ever had together, and the charity game prior to him returning to the NBA, and, and, and?

He destroyed Pippen on a daily basis.

Then he would have to Guard a Beast Mode Barkley
Nobody on that Suns team can guard that monster

Barkley popped off for 27/13/5.5 in the 93 Finals. It didn't much matter to Chicago. It wouldn't matter much to Phoenix, either.

[Jcool0]

Think it's close to a wash, I dont think you can confidently say Suns were better. Scottie pippen was better than anybody Charles had beside him, Horace Grant was all defensive 2nd team, BJ Armstrong had a great finals and was all star the next year.

Chicago was coming off back to back championships, taking it easy in the regular season is expected for teams like that so the fact that Phoenix had a better record doesn't say much. Their ppg was also influenced by a relatively high pace (and Chicago's was slow). Offensive rating Suns had was 113.3, but Bulls were right behind them at 112.9.

Bulls won the championship so they were the "better team". But for the year the Suns were better. They did take Chicago to almost 7 games with Jordan averaging 40 pgg.

I don't know how much stock you can put into a regular season for a team coming off back to back titles. Did anybody have doubt Warriors were still the best team 17-18 and 18-19 despite not having the best record?

Rockets were a Chris Paul injury away from being the the finals so Warriors might of been the 2nd best team.

[PistolPeteJR]

Honestly I don't even know why anyone would even mention Jordan and Lebron in the same sentence other than maybe to laugh at Lebron. Jordan wasn't just some big freak of nature dude. The man had BASKETBALL talent. Not a great shooter but still had so much basketball talent.

So you understand that Michael Jordan was an outlier athlete, right? And how that incredible physical dominance informed and shaped his game?

And in your efforts to attack and diminish Lebron, you are still obligated to treat in reality, which includes Lebron's various basketball skills. Like court vision, playmaking, post play, 3pt shooting, etc, etc, yes?

Also, you even got the part about Jordan wrong. He WAS a great shooter, just not from 3.

Add to that that MJ, who apparently wasn’t a freak of nature athletically according to warriorschamp, has the eighth-largest hands in NBA history. That helps quite a bit as well.

[Stannis]

Michael won a gold as the best player on an armature winning team. Lebron never did that.

Watch on YouTube

Have to agree with this. MJ still won on an amateur roster.

Olympic golds matter. But we can't forget that the 2004 Olympic team struggled with LBJ. It wasn't until Kobe joined in 2008 where Team USA turned into a forever super team.

In the end, USA basketball is still miles ahead of other countries, to the point where there's no excuse of getting no gold.

The guy was 18 years old coming off the bench, playing 14mpg. This argument means nothing.

Are we just supposed to ignore the 2006 FIBA performance that followed too?

People opened this door when trying to use Team USA Feats for GOAT arguments.

[LaLover11]

Not possible because Pippen would actually be guarding him, something he never experienced in his lifetime.

You mean other than every practice they ever had together, and the charity game prior to him returning to the NBA, and, and, and?

He destroyed Pippen on a daily basis.

Then he would have to Guard a Beast Mode Barkley
Nobody on that Suns team can guard that monster

Barkley popped off for 27/13/5.5 in the 93 Finals. It didn't much matter to Chicago. It wouldn't matter much to Phoenix, either.

Playing in practice and charity games is not the same intensity as a Finals Matchup

This scenario would be like " Kawhi/Pippen guarding MJ for 7 games.

Then also giving Pippen a Prime healthy quicker & more hustle Zion aka Barkley.

Pippen and Barkley > MJ & anything the Suns had
Phil Jackson> Phil Westphal
BJ Armstrong & Grant > K Johnson & Marley

[tsherkin]

Add to that that MJ, who apparently wasn’t a freak of nature athletically according to warriorschamp, has the eighth-largest hands in NBA history. That helps quite a bit as well.

Indeed. Jordan himself spoke at times about his hand size being an advantage, as it was for Doctor J before him. He had all kinds of crazy physical tools. He developed a whole bunch of skills over time as well, for sure, but he wouldn't have been anything like the same player if he didn't have those physical tools. That's a competitive advantage all players wish for, and most of the best players in NBA history have leaned heavily on physical traits. And the ones who haven't been insane run-jump athletes have leaned heavily towards size advantage, coordination, reflexes, etc.

[tsherkin]

Playing in practice and charity games is not the same intensity as a Finals Matchup

Jordan would annihilate Pippen, that much is clear.

[LaLover11]

Playing in practice and charity games is not the same intensity as a Finals Matchup

Jordan would annihilate Pippen, that much is clear.

I don't agree at all

Pippen and Barkley taking turns on MJ would wear him out

[PistolPeteJR]

Have to agree with this. MJ still won on an amateur roster.

Olympic golds matter. But we can't forget that the 2004 Olympic team struggled with LBJ. It wasn't until Kobe joined in 2008 where Team USA turned into a forever super team.

In the end, USA basketball is still miles ahead of other countries, to the point where there's no excuse of getting no gold.

The guy was 18 years old coming off the bench, playing 14mpg. This argument means nothing.

Are we just supposed to ignore the 2006 FIBA performance that followed too?

People opened this door when trying to use Team USA Feats for GOAT arguments.

24mpg, scoring 13.9ppg on 58 FG%, 4.8rpg and 4.1apg, 1.5spg, and decent defense.

Jordan in ‘84: 17.1ppg, 3rpg, 2apg, 1.5spg, and I’m sure also played decent defense, though I never watched. No percentages or minutes played recorded on bballref.

I’m not seeing much of a difference outside of the competition in 2006 being far superior to that in ‘84.

Again, what’s the issue?

[Stannis]

Again, what’s the issue?

Losing

until Kobe was able to join Team USA in 2008.

Truthfully, the Team USA career just solidifies that LBJ wasn't able to win it all unless he got his superteams.

[tsherkin]

I don't agree at all

Pippen and Barkley taking turns on MJ would wear him out

Barkley was an oxygen thief on defense, what are you talking about?

[Jcool0]

The guy was 18 years old coming off the bench, playing 14mpg. This argument means nothing.

Are we just supposed to ignore the 2006 FIBA performance that followed too?

People opened this door when trying to use Team USA Feats for GOAT arguments.

24mpg, scoring 13.9ppg on 58 FG%, 4.8rpg and 4.1apg, 1.5spg, and decent defense.

Jordan in ‘84: 17.1ppg, 3rpg, 2apg, 1.5spg, and I’m sure also played decent defense, though I never watched. No percentages or minutes played recorded on bballref.

I’m not seeing much of a difference outside of the competition in 2006 being far superior to that in ‘84.

Again, what’s the issue?

USA lost to Greece 101-95 and ended up with the Bronze medal. Greece lost to Spain in the finals 70-47.

[tsherkin]

Are we just supposed to ignore the 2006 FIBA performance that followed too?

People opened this door when trying to use Team USA Feats for GOAT arguments.

24mpg, scoring 13.9ppg on 58 FG%, 4.8rpg and 4.1apg, 1.5spg, and decent defense.

Jordan in ‘84: 17.1ppg, 3rpg, 2apg, 1.5spg, and I’m sure also played decent defense, though I never watched. No percentages or minutes played recorded on bballref.

I’m not seeing much of a difference outside of the competition in 2006 being far superior to that in ‘84.

Again, what’s the issue?

USA lost to Greece 101-95 and ended up with the Bronze medal.

I think the point is that team performance is more important than Lebron's individual performance in that tournament, and Jordan was more exciting than good in Barcelona. So comparing the 92 unit's TEAM success without the context of Jordan's actual performance, and then criticizing Lebron for the 96 team despite the performance of others and despite his personal performance, is inconsistent and doesn't make much sense.

[LaLover11]

I don't agree at all

Pippen and Barkley taking turns on MJ would wear him out

Barkley was an oxygen thief on defense, what are you talking about?

Barkley would target and bully MJ on Offense
Pippen would make MJ work for his offense every single possession.

I would just double MJ every other possession with barley and Pippen but unfortunately during MJ's era Zones we're not allowed, maybe you know more than me.

Either way Pippen is making MJ work
Barkley is targeting MJ to get him in foul trouble or bully him and exhaust him.

Marley is too weak
Nobody but MJ has to Guard Barkley

That would be there only chance
MJ would have to finally work hard every possession for 48 mins. Plus he would have a worse coach and supporting cast

Barkley/Pippen Bulls in 6 games vs MJ

[hugolizard]

Winning the Olympics with 11 other NBA all stars is not going to add much to the GOAT argument. But instead if you dodge and lose in the Olympics it’s actually going to hurt your argument.

[cdubbz]

Another example of Lebron propaganda from ESPN and Kendrick Perkins.
Let's stop all the comparing and just enjoy what we saw.

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