ATG Offensive Engines LeBron, Magic, Jordan, Curry, Nash, and Jokic and Playoff Series

[CodeBreaker]

These graphs have me questioning if Jokic is better than Nash

Jokic elevates his game in the playoffs way higher than Nash

[Colbinii]

These graphs have me questioning if Jokic is better than Nash

Jokic elevates his game in the playoffs way higher than Nash

This is all playoff data

[falcolombardi]

I have the potentially controversial opinion that non-ball handlers like shaq or jokic have a slightly lower ceiling offensively than people who can handle the ball themselves

[jalengreen]

.

Such beautiful visualizations, well done. Definitely a valuable resource.

One suggestion I’d have is adding the color coding key to the visualization itself. Could be with a legend or coloring the player names in the subtitle with their respective color, for example. Would allow people to share the plots in the future without needing to provide the key themselves. Particularly with the scatter plot, the histogram is more intuitive because it follows the order of names in the subtitle. But maybe you want to maintain the minimalist look and a legend would mess with that, not sure.

[CodeBreaker]

Something to leave here

[Colbinii]

Something to leave here

Perhaps you missed it earlier in this thread.

For 2020 and 2023 we have 7 series where Murray and Jokic played.

Nikola Jokic ON, Jamal Murray ON
1268 Minutes
+5.90 Net-Rtg
120.40 Ortg

Jamal Murray ON, Nikola Jokic OFF
283 Minutes
+1.18 Net-Rtg
111.30 Ortg

Nikola Jokic ON, Jamal Murray OFF
215 Minutes
-12.26 Net-Rtg
107.78 Ortg

[falcolombardi]

Something to leave here

Wait until you compare domantas sabonis kings to 2017 warriors

Raw offensive ratings of the 2017 warriors are kind of left behind by modern scoring rates

[zimpy27]

Something to leave here

Perhaps you missed it earlier in this thread.

For 2020 and 2023 we have 7 series where Murray and Jokic played.

Nikola Jokic ON, Jamal Murray ON
1268 Minutes
+5.90 Net-Rtg
120.40 Ortg

Jamal Murray ON, Nikola Jokic OFF
283 Minutes
+1.18 Net-Rtg
111.30 Ortg

Nikola Jokic ON, Jamal Murray OFF
215 Minutes
-12.26 Net-Rtg
107.78 Ortg

Yeah Murray gets a ton of heat but he's been absolutely criticial to the Nuggets success along with Jokic. His ability to perform better in the playoffs than the RS is uncanny, usually you only see that in all time great players.

I mean Jamal is their main iso scorer, far more iso scoring than Jokic.

Jokic is an all time great from a regular season perspective though, one of the best ever.

[therealbig3]

Relative Orating is way more important than raw Orating lol, the 17 Warriors dominated opposing defenses. The 23 Nuggets were really good, but not dominant.

[canada_dry]

These graphs have me questioning if Jokic is better than Nash

Jokic elevates his game in the playoffs way higher than Nash

Nash elevated in the playoffs too. And these are playoff graphs.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Colbinii]

These graphs have me questioning if Jokic is better than Nash

Jokic elevates his game in the playoffs way higher than Nash

Nash elevated in the playoffs too. And these are playoff graphs.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

B-B-But BPM and the Box-Score

[Djoker]

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

[homecourtloss]

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

It wasn’t my intention to only compare Nikola Jokić, even though others are doing so, but talking about injuries and supporting cast isn’t really a good excuse when you’ve had other players who had multiple injuries to their teammates and/or diminished supporting casts do better. Additionally, there were people on this board and others who were making arguments forJokic being the greatest offensive player ever, and if you’re going to make those arguments, there are really high standards you have to meet.

Also, on an unrelated note, I saw that you forayed into the abyss of the GB with the Duncan thread

[Colbinii]

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

Go look at LeBron's rORTG 2016-2018 without Kyrie

[Djoker]

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

It wasn’t my intention to only compare Nikola Jokić, even though others are doing so, but talking about injuries and supporting cast isn’t really a good excuse when you’ve had other players who had multiple injuries to their teammates and/or diminished supporting casts do better. Additionally, there were people on this board and others who were making arguments forJokic being the greatest offensive player ever, and if you’re going to make those arguments, there are really high standards you have to meet.

Also, on an unrelated note, I saw that you forayed into the abyss of the GB with the Duncan thread

Greatest ever is going too far. We agree on that. I just want to point out that he's a bit disadvantaged.

GB is ok. A little change of scenery!

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

Go look at LeBron's rORTG 2016-2018 without Kyrie

In 2015 (injured Kyrie) and 2018 (no Kyrie), the rORtg were much worse actually. Maybe when you say "without Kyrie" you meant when he's off the court in games he played but those are smaller samples.

[CodeBreaker]

Watch on YouTube

[Colbinii]

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

It wasn’t my intention to only compare Nikola Jokić, even though others are doing so, but talking about injuries and supporting cast isn’t really a good excuse when you’ve had other players who had multiple injuries to their teammates and/or diminished supporting casts do better. Additionally, there were people on this board and others who were making arguments forJokic being the greatest offensive player ever, and if you’re going to make those arguments, there are really high standards you have to meet.

Also, on an unrelated note, I saw that you forayed into the abyss of the GB with the Duncan thread

Greatest ever is going too far. We agree on that. I just want to point out that he's a bit disadvantaged.

GB is ok. A little change of scenery!

Many pages later and it's still an unfair comparison.

Jokic likely has the worst supporting cast on offense of all these guys. Since he entered his prime in 2021, he's only had a healthy Murray for one PS which is 2023. That's context that has to factor into this. He definitely has the worst rORtg numbers but that can be easily explained with other than "Jokic just isn't as good".

Go look at LeBron's rORTG 2016-2018 without Kyrie

In 2015 (injured Kyrie) and 2018 (no Kyrie), the rORtg were much worse actually. Maybe when you say "without Kyrie" you meant when he's off the court in games he played but those are smaller samples.

Yeah and there are games/series like the 2017 Indiana Pacers series where Cleveland is down 30 at half-time and in the 2nd half Ty Lue benches Kyrie/Love for a majority of the game and the Cavaliers come back with just LeBron.

Kyrie also only played in 2/4 games in 2015 against Atlanta Hawks, 49 total minutes. Kevin Love didn't play at all.

Cleveland's rORTG in this series: 10.3
Atlanta's SRS since I know you care: 4.75

And even in the series before this against Chicago, Kyrie puts up 20 points/3 assists to 2.2 turnovers on 40/40/91 shooting [Really nothing better than Jamal Murray in any capacity] and no Kevin Love in the series and it is still +7.3 rORTG.

But if you want to cite the NBA Finals in 2015 where the best offensive players next to LeBron James were Timofey Mozgov, J.R. Smith and Tristan Thompson, go ahead

I know you are still holding on hope Jokic can have a 2-year run at +13 rORTG like LeBron had in 2016 and 2017.

[Colbinii]

Watch on YouTube

So your argument is a Youtube video?

The General Board is calling, they want their sheep back.

[falcolombardi]

Bottom of all this is that with jokic a lot of people use the idea of "ceiling raising" or elevating teams to the highest heights offensively to argue him as high as the greatest offensive player of all time

He has not done that. So people are being consistent
About it

[Colbinii]

Bottom of all this is that with jokic a lot of people use the idea of "ceiling raising" or elevating teams to the highest heights offensively to argue him as high as the greatest offensive player of all time

He has not done that. So people are being consistent
About it

That's so weird to me. He is an excellent Floor Raiser but the idea he is a ceiling raiser just doesn't bode with the Data.

Miller, Dirk, Jordan, Nash, LeBron and Magic all look exceptional for Ceiling Raising. Goes to show that different archetypes can all be ceiling raisers.