MIL/NOP/POR/TOR - Lopez /Ingram/Ayton/Poetl

[Walton1one]

"If Ayton had any value he would be gone already." Some of us might agree with this statement, but I don't think this is actually true from the perspective of Portland's management and coaching staff. While I am not sure they still see Ayton as a long-term piece, we have no indications that they don't like him.

And I think it would take at least a 1st (or equivalent young prospect) to get Portland to move on Ayton now. Again, most here will agree that a 1st is overvaluing Ayton, but I feel generally confident that the Blazers management isn't among that bunch. And I think Portland ownership appreciates that he raises this team's floor ("we want to be bad, but not unwatchably bad.").

I certainly think he is available if the Blazers are incentivized, but the team still values his talent (and he does have raw talent), and cap space a year or two sooner is likely not going to be sufficient incentive at this juncture.

This is well stated, there is no incentive for POR to trade Ayton right now UNLESS a young player or pick was coming back and POR does not have financial pressure to incentivize them to trade him. Now next year when he is an expiring contract and not part of their plans (provided Clingan has shown he is ready), you could see him dealt for expiring\short term contracts and something like a 2nd or pick swap, but if he is being dealt this year it will be because a team offered something of value that made it worthwhile.

Not to mention, in terms of value, it's not Brown that Toronto is really giving up, it's Poetl.

Poetl is about 3yrs older than Ayton

Poetl's contract is for 3yrs (age 32 when hitting FA) vs. Ayton\2yrs (age 28 when hitting FA)

Ayton is the better player, on the court irrespective of salary

Ayton: 16 & 11 LY, career 16 & 10
Poetl: 11 & 8 LY, career 8 & 6

But this is a thread about a hypothetical where Ayton does in fact get traded, so what good is it to repeat over and over again that Portland won't trade him? What is it from the teams involved that you would want that would bridge gap of your perceived value of Ayton? Do you think Toronto owes a first here?

Pick compensation (future protected 1st) or a young player back that POR likes (Dick\Walter\Mogbo, not sure who they would prefer, both Dick\Walter had some rumored interest from POR).

Maybe they have interest in repatriating their own 25' pick?

[JRoy]

I can't dictate if you stay here or not, but I can let you know how unnecessary and unhelpful your responses are.
Like I mentioned in the previous post, I have no issues with criticism, I just have issues posts that have no purpose other than to shut down. Sorry if you don't like to hear about quality of your posts, but it is what it is. I can't kick you out of this thread, I am not a mod, all I can do is ask to not dilute it with your unhelpful posts.

Now bringing up why Portland wouldn't just trade for Ingram instead, that is actually something you have brought up that is worth discussing. And the answer would be quite obvious -- Portland is a rebuilding team, they aren't going to re-sign Ingram; Ingram duplicates much of what they have from Grant already; they likely wouldn't be able to reclaim any value for him due to his bigger contract. Brown would have more interest from contending teams near the deadline, and even if they are unable to trade Brown, Brown is at least a better fit around Portland's youth than Ingram, because he's a defensive role-player. Not to mention, in terms of value, it's not Brown that Toronto is really giving up, it's Poetl.

100% of POR fans who have responded to your deal gave it the thumbs down and we are the problem.

If Brown has the kind of value you imagine he would already have been moved. I’m sure TOR can move him to a playoff team at the deadline.

POR is not interested in helping TOR upgrade for NOTHING that we want.

Yeah, of course you're all the problem because you're missing the whole point. It must be a reflex at this point.

I don't care if you give it a thumbs down, I am asking what changes you would make to give it a thumbs up? I even said in the OP, "what kind of value needs to be added for Portland". Like, it's fine if you don't think Ayton will be traded, it makes complete sense that Portland would rather reclaim some of his value. But this is a thread about a hypothetical where Ayton does in fact get traded, so what good is it to repeat over and over again that Portland won't trade him? What is it from the teams involved that you would want that would bridge gap of your perceived value of Ayton? Do you think Toronto owes a first here? I am all up for criticism, but just let it be constructive.

Fair enough. You asked a rational question and I will try to respond in kind.

None of those players would have any future in POR and would cause a roster crunch where POR would need to cut players for guys we do t even want.

POR would want an asset for that, probably more than TOR would want to pay. A young guy POR might want to keep or a late FRP.

I would not blame any team for being unwilling to offer up either for Ayton. I don’t like Ayton either.

[realball]

“Tell me how great my trade is for team where we give up spare parts for an all star level player and a 3nd center.”

“Also, need your team to give up the value to get my team the best player in the trade, but not take that player to move for what your team might actually want and accept scraps from my team so we can get him. Thanks for your cooperation.”

Oh great, you again.

Listen, if you don't think Ayton should be traded, that's great for you. This thread involves a trade with Ayton, so clearly you're out of your depth here and should move on. I have no problems with criticism, in fact I stated right away that I welcome discussion, and have taken others' opinions into account to improve the trade. But if all your criticisms are just a means to end discussion, then you are not welcome here.

And to address your points... All-Star level player? Really? Ingram was an All-Star years ago, and has not come even close to that level again. Like you said about Brown, if he had that kind of value, he would have been traded already. He's an oft-injured player who just had a disastrous playoffs, doesn't space the floor that well or play much defense, and is looking for a max contract. If you can't remain impartial and are just throwing lazy descriptions around to end discussion, then please do it somewhere else.

Don't even know what your mean by 3rd center here.

Ayton does not have value, so you're not really giving up anything. As others have mentioned, Portland is actually stealing value by getting off Ayton's contract. Another miss there.

I have already asked what would Portland want in this trade, and your answer was that there is nothing Portland could get. So I don't know why you would mention what Portland would want in the first place. Once again, just you complaining but not contributing anything to the discussion.

As I (and Marvelous before me) duly noted earlier, Brown is about as much a "scrap player" as Ayton is. So another swing and a miss.

If you nothing to say besides "pass from POR", then please go look for attention somewhere else. You're thoughts and opinions are useless here. If you don't want to discuss trades, go to another forum. Thanks for your cooperation.

“3nd” not “3rd”, they do look alike so don’t blame you for that.

As far as the condescending manner you order any dissenting opinion to move along, that’s a big No chief.

This is a straight homer deal where every team but yours genuflects so your team can get the best pieces with other teams footing the bill.

If your ego can’t handle that maybe you should move along.

I mean, this is not even a trade would make, which I mentioned straight away in the OP. Do you think Ingram makes Toronto a much better team? I am using my own team as third/fourth in a much discussed Ingram/Ayton swap. And I acknowledged right away that Portland could use value in this thread. I started the thread with a trade that tries to get Portland young players on the last seasons of their rookie contracts, so it's not like I have gone out of my way to give Portland a poo poo platter.

And gee, you think I should move along from the thread I started? The irony of you talking about condescending manners lol. I have responded to several dissenting opinions cordially, because they are actually constructive. You've done nothing to contribute to this thread, which is why I have asked you to leave. I don't know what's keeping you here, maybe you like being talked down to.

[JRoy]

Oh great, you again.

Listen, if you don't think Ayton should be traded, that's great for you. This thread involves a trade with Ayton, so clearly you're out of your depth here and should move on. I have no problems with criticism, in fact I stated right away that I welcome discussion, and have taken others' opinions into account to improve the trade. But if all your criticisms are just a means to end discussion, then you are not welcome here.

And to address your points... All-Star level player? Really? Ingram was an All-Star years ago, and has not come even close to that level again. Like you said about Brown, if he had that kind of value, he would have been traded already. He's an oft-injured player who just had a disastrous playoffs, doesn't space the floor that well or play much defense, and is looking for a max contract. If you can't remain impartial and are just throwing lazy descriptions around to end discussion, then please do it somewhere else.

Don't even know what your mean by 3rd center here.

Ayton does not have value, so you're not really giving up anything. As others have mentioned, Portland is actually stealing value by getting off Ayton's contract. Another miss there.

I have already asked what would Portland want in this trade, and your answer was that there is nothing Portland could get. So I don't know why you would mention what Portland would want in the first place. Once again, just you complaining but not contributing anything to the discussion.

As I (and Marvelous before me) duly noted earlier, Brown is about as much a "scrap player" as Ayton is. So another swing and a miss.

If you nothing to say besides "pass from POR", then please go look for attention somewhere else. You're thoughts and opinions are useless here. If you don't want to discuss trades, go to another forum. Thanks for your cooperation.

“3nd” not “3rd”, they do look alike so don’t blame you for that.

As far as the condescending manner you order any dissenting opinion to move along, that’s a big No chief.

This is a straight homer deal where every team but yours genuflects so your team can get the best pieces with other teams footing the bill.

If your ego can’t handle that maybe you should move along.

I mean, this is not even a trade would make, which I mentioned straight away in the OP. Do you think Ingram makes Toronto a much better team? I am using my own team as third/fourth in a much discussed Ingram/Ayton swap. And I acknowledged right away that Portland could use value in this thread. I started the thread with a trade that tries to get Portland young players on the last seasons of their rookie contracts, so it's not like I have gone out of my way to give Portland a poo poo platter.

And gee, you think I should move along from the thread I started? The irony of you talking about condescending manners lol. I have responded to several dissenting opinions cordially, because they are actually constructive. You've done nothing to contribute to this thread, which is why I have asked you to leave. I don't know what's keeping you here, maybe you like being talked down to.

You don’t like the feedback, but there is a reason you are getting it.

You say you didn’t go out of your way to offer POR a poo poo platter, but that is exactly what you did.

You don’t like my contribution; fine by me. I don’t like your trade and no one else does either.

[Boonicus]

Just spitballing a trade here... don't think my team would go for it because of the tax implications, but would love to hear about how far off on value this trade is. Can adding draft picks fix this trade (guessing Portland would need some)?


Milwaukee Bucks trade:
Brook Lopez

Milwaukee Bucks receive:
Jakob Poetl

Bucks trade for a younger, more mobile C, on a cheaper long-term contract. Save ~$4 million in cap.


New Orleans Pelicans trade:
Brandon Ingram, Jordan Hawkins

New Orleans Pelicans receive:
Brook Lopez, Matisse Thybulle

New Orleans trades for 3-pt shooting, shotblocking C, as well as a defensive replacement for Ingram. Save ~$6 million in cap.


Portland Trailblazers trade:
Deandre Ayton, Matisse Thybulle

Portland Trailblazers receive:
Bruce Brown, Chris Boucher, Ochai Agbaji, Davion Mitchell

Portland receive expirings for Ayton.


Toronto Raptors trade:
Jakob Poetl, Bruce Brown, Chris Boucher, Ochai Agbaji, Davion Mitchell

Toronto Raptors receive:
Brandon Ingram, Deandre Ayton, Jordan Hawkins

Toronto Raptors make use of expirings and swap Poetl for Ayton to land Ingram. Use about $10 million in cap space (they are ~$10 million below the tax).

I'd give a pass from TO, Ayton is not the influence you want on a young squad

[realball]

"If Ayton had any value he would be gone already." Some of us might agree with this statement, but I don't think this is actually true from the perspective of Portland's management and coaching staff. While I am not sure they still see Ayton as a long-term piece, we have no indications that they don't like him.

And I think it would take at least a 1st (or equivalent young prospect) to get Portland to move on Ayton now. Again, most here will agree that a 1st is overvaluing Ayton, but I feel generally confident that the Blazers management isn't among that bunch. And I think Portland ownership appreciates that he raises this team's floor ("we want to be bad, but not unwatchably bad.").

I certainly think he is available if the Blazers are incentivized, but the team still values his talent (and he does have raw talent), and cap space a year or two sooner is likely not going to be sufficient incentive at this juncture.

This is well stated, there is no incentive for POR to trade Ayton right now UNLESS a young player or pick was coming back and POR does not have financial pressure to incentivize them to trade him. Now next year when he is an expiring contract and not part of their plans (provided Clingan has shown he is ready), you could see him dealt for expiring\short term contracts and something like a 2nd or pick swap, but if he is being dealt this year it will be because a team offered something of value that made it worthwhile.

Not to mention, in terms of value, it's not Brown that Toronto is really giving up, it's Poetl.

Poetl is about 3yrs older than Ayton

Poetl's contract is for 3yrs (age 32 when hitting FA) vs. Ayton\2yrs (age 28 when hitting FA)

Ayton is the better player, on the court irrespective of salary

Ayton: 16 & 11 LY, career 16 & 10
Poetl: 11 & 8 LY, career 8 & 6

But this is a thread about a hypothetical where Ayton does in fact get traded, so what good is it to repeat over and over again that Portland won't trade him? What is it from the teams involved that you would want that would bridge gap of your perceived value of Ayton? Do you think Toronto owes a first here?

Pick compensation (future protected 1st) or a young player back that POR likes (Dick\Walter\Mogbo, not sure who they would prefer, both Dick\Walter had some rumored interest from POR).

Maybe they have interest in repatriating their own 25' pick?

Poetl's got three more years at $19 million each, I think that puts him well ahead of Ayton in terms of value. Not to mention, I think any team would rather have Poetl for his defense and toughness over Ayton. Much like how the Suns chose Nurkic over Ayton, despite Ayton having better stats.

I completely forgot the Toronto has Portland's 25 2nd. Perhaps some 2nds from Milwaukee too? Dick or Walter are interesting, but I imagine most Raptor fans would not be okay with trading recent picks for Ingram when they are already trading Poetl.

[realball]

“3nd” not “3rd”, they do look alike so don’t blame you for that.

As far as the condescending manner you order any dissenting opinion to move along, that’s a big No chief.

This is a straight homer deal where every team but yours genuflects so your team can get the best pieces with other teams footing the bill.

If your ego can’t handle that maybe you should move along.

I mean, this is not even a trade would make, which I mentioned straight away in the OP. Do you think Ingram makes Toronto a much better team? I am using my own team as third/fourth in a much discussed Ingram/Ayton swap. And I acknowledged right away that Portland could use value in this thread. I started the thread with a trade that tries to get Portland young players on the last seasons of their rookie contracts, so it's not like I have gone out of my way to give Portland a poo poo platter.

And gee, you think I should move along from the thread I started? The irony of you talking about condescending manners lol. I have responded to several dissenting opinions cordially, because they are actually constructive. You've done nothing to contribute to this thread, which is why I have asked you to leave. I don't know what's keeping you here, maybe you like being talked down to.

You don’t like the feedback, but there is a reason you are getting it.

You say you didn’t go out of your way to offer POR a poo poo platter, but that is exactly what you did.

You don’t like my contribution; fine by me. I don’t like your trade and no one else does either.

Yeah you're right, I don't like your feedback, because it's garbage. I stated the reason you keep giving in my OP, so thanks for nothing.

I already got someone else telling me how balanced this trade is on this thread, if you know anything about this board, you would know how rare that is. So please, cry about Ayton to someone else. Bye now.

[JRoy]

I mean, this is not even a trade would make, which I mentioned straight away in the OP. Do you think Ingram makes Toronto a much better team? I am using my own team as third/fourth in a much discussed Ingram/Ayton swap. And I acknowledged right away that Portland could use value in this thread. I started the thread with a trade that tries to get Portland young players on the last seasons of their rookie contracts, so it's not like I have gone out of my way to give Portland a poo poo platter.

And gee, you think I should move along from the thread I started? The irony of you talking about condescending manners lol. I have responded to several dissenting opinions cordially, because they are actually constructive. You've done nothing to contribute to this thread, which is why I have asked you to leave. I don't know what's keeping you here, maybe you like being talked down to.

You don’t like the feedback, but there is a reason you are getting it.

You say you didn’t go out of your way to offer POR a poo poo platter, but that is exactly what you did.

You don’t like my contribution; fine by me. I don’t like your trade and no one else does either.

Yeah you're right, I don't like your feedback, because it's garbage. I stated the reason you keep giving in my OP, so thanks for nothing.

I already got someone else telling me how balanced this trade is on this thread, if you know anything about this board, you would know how rare that is. So please, cry about Ayton to someone else. Bye now.

I also love it when someone else pays for what I want so of course you lover this homer deal.

[realball]

I mean, that statement applies to all the big pieces in this trade, right? If Ayton had any value he would be gone already. If Ingram had any value, he would be gone already. Kind of the point of this trade, moving misfit pieces around.

What kind of value do you see teams trading for Ayton, and to follow-up, can something similar be added to this trade? 2nds from each team perhaps? As I said in the OP, Portland probably needs some value added here, but I think a 1st would be too rich for Ayton, even at the deadline from another team, don't you think?

"If Ayton had any value he would be gone already." Some of us might agree with this statement, but I don't think this is actually true from the perspective of Portland's management and coaching staff. While I am not sure they still see Ayton as a long-term piece, we have no indications that they don't like him.

And I think it would take at least a 1st (or equivalent young prospect) to get Portland to move on Ayton now. Again, most here will agree that a 1st is overvaluing Ayton, but I feel generally confident that the Blazers management isn't among that bunch. And I think Portland ownership appreciates that he raises this team's floor ("we want to be bad, but not unwatchably bad.").

I certainly think he is available if the Blazers are incentivized, but the team still values his talent (and he does have raw talent), and cap space a year or two sooner is likely not going to be sufficient incentive at this juncture.

I mean, everything you just said applies to Brown and the Raptors too. And quite frankly, I disagree with with the premise that Ayton raises the team's floor. I don't think Ayton makes Portland any more watchable. I don't think the team values his talent, which is why they drafted Clingan. And $34 million in cap savings is a great deal of incentive for a rebuilding team in a small market. And I don't think Portland's management is deluded to think they can get a 1st later on, when they can't get one now.

[Texas Chuck]

OP has made it crystal clear he is not interested in feedback that he does not like. However, this board isn't about posting ideas and receiving nothing but love. You have to take the good with the bad. If you can't, you probably shouldn't post OP's. Locking this one.