Is the best version of Jimmy Butler the most similar player to LeBron ever?

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OhayoKD
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Re: Is the best version of Jimmy Butler the most similar player to LeBron ever? 

Post#21 » by OhayoKD » Mon Sep 30, 2024 3:54 am

Pelly24 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:I kind of got this sense just thinking about the impact stats (BPM, ws/48)

BPM and WS/48 are not impact stats. Though I guess your reliance on them explains why you massively overrate guards.
their two-way play

You do realize you are talking about 3 guards right? Neither Butler or Jordan or Wade are on the same scale defensively.
and their ability to run an offense and close games out in the fourth quarter.

Jordan was not even running the bulls offense but alright.
No other players besides I guess MJ and Wade were like that in my eyes. These are guys that are basically flawless.

If you disregard that they are below average at the most important aspect of defense and are vastly inferior playmakers...sure. "Basically flawless".



TBH all of this is just semantics.

TBH you should address what is being argued rather than misuse English. My post was the opposite of semantics.

The real point is that LeBron, Wade and MJ ... and Jimmy were three-level scoring wings who could get to the free throw line a lot, make shots from a variety of places on the court, create off the dribble, mostly hit free throws

Neither Jordan or Wade were good(even for their era) three-point shooters or three-level scorers. The rest describes every all-time great perimeter offensive engine.

The real point which you ignored is you're comically cherrypicking to come up with bizarre assertions like this
Basically, they have no substantial flaws when it comes to basketball.

Let me repeat this again. They are below average at the most important aspect of defense and are substantially worse at creating for others than folks like Nash, Lebron, Magic, or even Steph. Those are two substantial flaws which keep them much lower in actual impact(as demonstrated in the largest samples) than they look in bpm or ws/48.

make game-changing plays on both ends of the ball and keep their turnover rate very low seemingly no matter the circumstances.

They keep their turnover rate very low by not being as involved offensively in the development of possessions as GOAT tier creators.
They can't be taken advantage of on defense

Yes they can:
Spoiler:
CapFan33 wrote:Colts18 did some tracking of Jordan's defense during the 92 finals against Clyde Drexler, and Drexler shot better against MJ than he did against everyone else by a decent margin. He shot 41% overall, but against Jordan specifically shot 44% while he shot 38% against everyone else.

OhayoKD wrote:
bledredwine wrote:

Read my post. Colt didn't include volume but just FG% in that post, which is like eliminating all of the context.

Simply guarding a player who plays your position more does not mean you "shut him down", particularly when he shoots 6 points better against you.


Jordan locked him down most of the time and the videos are above.

Yeah, they are. Have you watched them? I only needed to wait 27 seconds in video 2 to see "lockdown defense" where Jordan gets dribbled past and Grant stops him cold. I just needed to wait 50 seconds to see it happen again, except this time Jordan's teammates can't bail him out.

Why don't we actually track what happens here.

Possession 1: Jordan gets caught on a screen giving drexler time to kick it out

Possession 2: Jordan gets dribbled past, Horace Grant cleans up

Possession 3: Drexler has Jordan scrambling, makes him fall too far back, exploits this by giving his teammate a hand-off leaving him with acres of space, and then creates even more by catching Jordan and Pippen with a screen

Possession 4: Drexler dribbles by Jordan again, converts

Possession 5: Drexler draws a double, creates separation, fakes jordan out for a pass, Jordan's teammate deflects it, Drexler prevents the turnover

Possession 6: Intercepts a pass, his first positive play this video

Possession 7: Stonewalls Drexler for a few seconds, Drexler passes it away. second positive play this video

Possession 8: Is baited out of position by a pass-fake, prevented from recovering by a screen, Drexler capitalizes with a dunk

Possession 9: Jordan contests late, Drexler misses anyway

Possession 10: Jordan and Grant successfully prevent Drexler from receiving a pass

Possession 11 Weak contest, Drexler misses anyway



Care to explain why you posted a video where Jordan got cooked as evidence he played "lockdown defense" on Drexler despite giving up 6-points more when guarding him than his teammates?
[/quote]


One-leg Clyde Drexler is capable of taking advantage of these "flawless" players. But again, none of this would show up in BPM or WS/48.

and they don't have many weaknesses when it comes to offense.

Neither does Kevin Garnett. What is your point.

They all have proven ability to lead bad teams to much better records than what they would have otherwise. They all raised their game or kept it the same during the playoffs. Jimmy is in rare company in this way, don't be obtuse.

You have just described most top 20 players ever, some of whom do both as well and one or both of the two better(Russell, Hakeem, ect). How does this make the guards more similar to Lebron again?

A two-way wing that can pass, shoot and dribble and play on or off ball and has plus size is extremely valuable.

They do not have plus-size, they are guards. Giannis Antetokounmpo is a much better facsimile of Lebron on offense than anyone you listed imitates him (or any actual all-time wing) on defense.
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Is the best version of Jimmy Butler the most similar player to LeBron ever? 

Post#22 » by kdawg32086 » Sat Oct 5, 2024 8:20 pm

I'm sure the stats guys will make me look bad for this, but what about Scottie Pippen as a similar player to LeBron?
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