Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon

Moderators: Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier

OhayoKD
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,903
And1: 3,849
Joined: Jun 22, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#81 » by OhayoKD » Fri Nov 8, 2024 1:56 am

trex_8063 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:It's interesting to me that most Hakeem voters seem to think McHale was better than Bird even though:
1) Bird made the Celtics a 61 win team before he got there.
2) McHale had a small role in the initial Celtics title.
3) When McHale had the chance to lead the team without Bird in 89 they won only 42 games.
4) in the 1 year where prime Bird and McHale overlapped where McHale did miss a decent chunk of games (1986) the Celtics were 11-3 without him (I.e. this very year).

89? Say, isn't that the year they, with bird, played like a...checks notes...-4 team in the postseason.

The Celtics also replaced Bird with a bordeline all-star in 92 and...nearly made the conference finals with him barely being a factor.

Mchale isn't being voted ahead because of regular-season play. He's being voted ahead because people feel he played better in the postseason where the WOWY stuff you selectively care about tends to turn bad for him. In a year where Bird's defense is bad, and his playmaking seems limited, and Mchale ends up scoring better in the only games the Celtics are meaningfully challenged, voting for Mchale seems fair to me, particularly when the people voting Bird, not just over mchale, but for #1 showcase minimal interest in engaging with the actual basketball involved.



I'll try to find some time to do some play-by-play evaluations [no promises], but I don't recall Bird being "bad" defensively this year. By '87 and after, OK. In '86, I feel like he was still more or less a neutral. He rebounded well [and he DOES box out], and his quick hands and [at times] almost pre-cog anticipation allow him to generate turnovers, too. Is a sound [if undersized] post defender. Maybe nearing the point where a number of perimeter players can blow by him around '86, I suppose, but those other things provide defensive value to counter-balance.


Also, I'm not sure, are you saying Bird is a "limited playmaker" in '86? I wouldn't know what else to say other than I disagree.

I suspect there are instances where his off-ball movement provide value [for teammates], though that is where I'd need to do some play-by-play.

Overall, I'm not sure I can be on-board with saying McHale outplayed him in the ps (or specifically in the Finals), at least based on the numbers (that's a series that's maybe due for a re-watch, though).
I note, for example that, Bird is +1.0 ppg, +0.7 rpg, and +5.5 apg [while also being -0.1 topg] compared to McHale in the playoffs. McHale is +2.1% TS as the counter-balance (and +0.1 in stl+blk, fwiw).

Bird has the better PER, WS/48, and BPM (while playing +2.9 mpg, too).

In the Finals, specifically, McHale is +1.8 ppg and +5.1% TS compared to Bird........but he's also -1.2 rpg, -7.8 apg, and +0.7 topg. Statistically, it doesn't feel like he outplayed Bird there, either.

Biggest Mchale argument would be on the basis of his defense(though I think this also implies things about the true rebounding value):
Spoiler:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=115401403#p115401403
Boston
Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Parish - 7
Bird - 6

Houston overall
Hakeem - 21
Sampson - 9

Houston pre-ejection

Hakeem - 15
Sampson - 9

Overall

Hakeem - 21
Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Sampson - 9
Parish - 7
Bird - 6


Matches my impressions rewatching the finals last weekend and general impression watching 86 and 87 playoffs. He's a big not really being used much as a rim protector, when he is used the results are mixed despite the lower usage and he's spending the least time of players in the lineup guarding guys with more breakdowns than positive plays(falco tracking which I've vetted). None of this plays into those all-in-ones you're listing outside of the 2 times mchale gets a block a game.

Limited playmaker is based on

-> lebronny tracking all his playoff runs between 84-88 and only finding 6 creation a game(on par with Hakeem, below Jordan, way below Magic)"
Spoiler:
Creations:
Hakeem 1986-1990: ~6
Bird 1984-1988: ~6
Jordan 1987-1993: ~10
Magic 1987-1991: ~16

-> full-games from falco with time-stamps, very little there:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2393479&start=20
(compilation of some of the tracking for bird's defense/passing here)
-> lazy tracking i did years ago for 86 and 87 full playoffs where again, very little off-ball, creation does not match assists
-> went and tracked for off-court stuff found very little(only secondary ADA a few times)
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=114336565#p114336565
and just like lenbrony and falco found, very little off-ball creation happening

and then you can say, but look at the assists, but i looked at that during the top 100, and more formally last week and...

Most of these,as you've seen/noted, are barely assists
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2411062
Now maybe if there was tracking the other direction I'd be like okay small-sample, but in the absence of that, and with myself and others consistently finding very little there, idk. i've watched alot of Bird including this whole playoff run multiple times over. His creation doesn't seem all-time so it seems plausible to me if Mchale is going to score more, more effeciently, largely self-created, be the outlier on the celtics in terms of paint-protection, and be guarding multiple positions very well, then whatever the formulas say, it's in play at least. I've walked back form my initital claim on Mchale because data is data but meh.




Also, regarding '89 being the year they play like "-4 team in the post-season with Bird"--->Bird didn't play in the post-season. If referring to the rs, worth noting it's a 6-game sample (I'd be reluctant to read into that too much).

Yeah I just messed up there.
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
ceoofkobefans
Junior
Posts: 483
And1: 281
Joined: Jun 27, 2021
   

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#82 » by ceoofkobefans » Fri Nov 8, 2024 2:09 am

sorry i missed a few years but I'm back for 1986 unfortunately this won't super detailed

POY ballot

1. Magic Johnson

he's the leader of the best offense in the league by a noticeable margin (1.2 gap in ORTG between lakers and 2nd best offense) and is in his peak, having one of the best playmaking seasons of all time. just to give some stats in 1986 Magic had the best Box OC (not era adjusted) in the league at 8.9 (11.2 in the PO which was also 1st among players to make it out of the first round) and had a 9.8 Passer Rating and a 10 in the Playoffs (passer rating is on roughly a 10 point scale) the lakers also had a +6.4 offense in the playoffs. the lakers have an elite roster but with age slowly but surely catching up to Kareem, Magic is finally the clear best player on the lakers. Defensively he's starting to taper off but I think he's a neutral to even slight positive. 1986 Magic Is one of the best offensive seasons in nba history so i think 1 is fair

2. Hakeem Olajuwon

Now if we were looking at just the regular season Hakeem would prolly be 4th or 5th for me but he has a really impressive playoff run and the rockets perform very well, beating the lakers and making the finals. He did this without starting PG John Lucas as well and the rockets had +5.3 offense in the PO in spite of this. Hakeem had a scoring outburst in the PO averaging 26.6 aPTS/75 on +3.6 rTS per TB and was clearly the best player on the rockets. due to how impressive the floor raising from hakeem is this year I'll give him 2nd although its very close between him and bird.

3. Larry bird
Really close between bird and hakeem but i guess the difference is that hakeem was able to make the finals and had a competetive series and the celtics with an all time great team while bird was the one on the all time great team. Bird's an all time offensive player and this is one of his best years but 86 is when the defense starts to really deteriorate, but the defensive structure with DJ McHale Parish etc was able to hide it.

4. Isiah Thomas

Not much to say this is during zeke's peak where hes an all time great playmaker solid scorer and a strong guard defender leading a good offense with Kelly tripucka and was the clear best player on a pistons team that won 46 games (+1.44 SRS) and made the playoffs without a very strong unit outside of tripucka and Lambier which isn't great considering the lakers have Kareem and Worthy, the Celtics have McHale and Parish, the bucks have Paul Pressey and Terry Cummings, the 76ers have Moses Malone and Mo Cheeks and so on and so forth as the second and third best player.

5. Kevin McHale

HM: Sidney Moncrief

OPOY

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Isiah Thomas
HM: Dominique Wilkins / Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

DPOY

1. Mark Eaton
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Sidney Moncrief
HM: Tree Rollins
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,264
And1: 6,851
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#83 » by falcolombardi » Fri Nov 8, 2024 5:33 pm

My votes

OPOY

1- Magic : i have said it before that i dont think magic has a true offensive peer on his level in the 80's amd the mid to late 80's are the period where this starts being clear. Notice that even in a down year for lakers, peak year for boston celtics offense actually slowed down

2-bird. I have him a full notch below magic but with age catching up to kareem i dont think he has a strong rival for 2nd. Moses also left his prime for good and isiah is not someone i consider quite on bird tier as a offensive player (albeit with bird playoff dropping and isiah playoffs improvement is closer than most think)

3- isiah thomas. Probably as good as a small guard who is not a jumpshooting or athletism outlier cam be as a first option (outside chris paul albeit he is a near outlier in shooting and ball handling)

DPOY

1-hakeem. In all honesty eaton is prolly still the most valuable one defensively. But hakeem is close enough by 86 than his playoffs run and the fact he doesnt compromise you offensively (which -helps- build better defensive units so it is relevant) gaim relevancy

2-mark eaton. Outlier impact for the era due to his size. Rim protection levels that were almost unreal even if only possible due to era lack of shooting

3- mchale. Seems to be the best boston defender by this point over parish and with much more minutes than walton. Boston won with defemse more so than offense so is very notable

HM: sidney moncrief as likely best wing defender of the time. Probably the only perimeter defender of the 80's whose dpoy votes were not a total joke basef on high steals tbh

POY

1-magic: for me at this stage semi comfortably the best player in basketball. Underdog loss hurts but i think it was not from his fault

2- hakeem. Most impressive playoffs run relative to expectations. Monster defense but i dont quite love his offense at this stage albeit it is indeed useful for floor raising

3- bird, best player on best team but i think by only a small amount abovr mchale when considering both sides of the court. I dont think he did anythingh mucj better than in 85 or 87 rather than have a better performing team and the sixth man of the year in walton

4- mchale: arguably the most important defensive player in boston as well as their best scorer and 2nd most important offensive player

5- isiah thomas: very strong season in what is a long run of team and offensive excellence in detroit
ShaqAttac
Rookie
Posts: 1,172
And1: 362
Joined: Oct 18, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#84 » by ShaqAttac » Fri Nov 8, 2024 7:10 pm

HAKEEM
Great O, best D. and his team better than peak MJs with maybe less help. I ain't votin 90 MJ 2nd just cause he lost so I'm not gonna vote 86 Dream 2nd just coz he lost. Even bird #1 ppl say Hakeem might have outplayed Bird and whatever Magic numbers and assists Hakeem faces him and Kareem and snaps them in 5. That's crazy. Maybe he wasnt so good after but this the 86 thread and 86 Hakeem went bananas and should be #1. It kind of says something people are using what people said about hakeem back then to say Hakeem wasn't all that while ppl who think Hakeems all that be pulling out numbers and eyetest and deep dives on that everyone but i guess LA don't really got answers for.

MAGIC
Best O and great impact but you cant be 1 when a dude shows up with less help and drops u in 5.

BIRD
MVP and FMVP and wins da chip. I get they dont look so good but impact is impact and mchale gets smacked however good his d be

MJ
yea he missed alot of games but who better matters more. if bird and mj both not good at d and both good at fake assists then i gotta go with the guy bird calls jesus coz he alot better scorer

Actually imma go
BARKLEY
scored the most and got the most boards and went crazy when his team almost made the cf vs team that almost won 60

HM:
MCHALE
2nd best player and best D on superteam. Ceo point out they were better on D and O but his team doing so good without him makes u ask.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,599
And1: 24,915
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#85 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 8, 2024 9:22 pm

OPOY

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Isiah Thomas

HM: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I think Magic reached his true prime at this point and I consider him to be GOAT level offensive player, so it's not a very hard choice for me.

I thought about putting Kareem 3rd, but decided to go with Thomas playmaking at this point.

DPOY

1. Mark Eaton
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Paul Pressey


Eaton is my clear 1st choice considering that Hakeem missed many games in the RS and I still think Olajuwon didn't reach his true defensive peak yet (he's not very far off though).

Yeah, call me crazy but I think Pressey was a better defender than Moncrief. He played more throughout the RS and was just as important (if not more) for the Bucks defense.

POY

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kevin McHale
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

HM: Sidney Moncrief, Isiah Thomas

I struggled with the choice for a long time. Bird had a better RS than Magic or Hakeem by the sheer fact of his availability. He also played really well in the playoffs, especially against the very solid Bucks team in the ECF. In the end though, I have always valued bigs higher than one-way superstars. Hakeem had an ATG postseason run when he completely destroyed the defending champions and one of the best players in the league at his position, then he struggled against Parish in the finals (just like Moses, maybe Parish is a secret Celtics weapon against Houston bigs?) but his defensive presence remained consistent even when he struggled with scoring.

Bird is a special player in a way that his impact is hard to judge by a typical tape analysis, but his signals are undeniable and I think he had a better season than Magic. McHale vs Kareem is also close, but Kevin had an amazing finals performance considering the opponents he faced (better than Kareem).

Sorry for not going deeper, I just want to get in time with my votes.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 8,142
And1: 5,236
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#86 » by One_and_Done » Fri Nov 8, 2024 9:35 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:HAKEEM
Great O, best D. and his team better than peak MJs with maybe less help. I ain't votin 90 MJ 2nd just cause he lost so I'm not gonna vote 86 Dream 2nd just coz he lost. Even bird #1 ppl say Hakeem might have outplayed Bird and whatever Magic numbers and assists Hakeem faces him and Kareem and snaps them in 5. That's crazy. Maybe he wasnt so good after but this the 86 thread and 86 Hakeem went bananas and should be #1. It kind of says something people are using what people said about hakeem back then to say Hakeem wasn't all that while ppl who think Hakeems all that be pulling out numbers and eyetest and deep dives on that everyone but i guess LA don't really got answers for.

MAGIC
Best O and great impact but you cant be 1 when a dude shows up with less help and drops u in 5.

MJ
yea he missed alot of games but who better matters more. if bird and mj both not good at d and both good at fake assists then i gotta go with the guy bird calls jesus coz he alot better scorer

BIRD
MVP and FMVP and wins da chip. I get they dont look so good but impact is impact and mchale gets smacked however good his d be

Actually imma go
BARKLEY
scored the most and got the most boards and went crazy when his team almost made the cf vs team that almost won 60

HM:
MCHALE
2nd best player and best D on superteam. Ceo point out they were better on D and O but his team doing so good without him makes u ask.

MJ at 3 seems so non-serious. He played 18 games this year. He only started 7 games too. There's no plausible argument that MJ brought more value in 18 games than Bird did in 82.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
User avatar
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,047
And1: 5,844
Joined: Jul 24, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#87 » by AEnigma » Fri Nov 8, 2024 10:54 pm

Copied from my voting post. Tallying ballots shortly.

Player of the Year
Spoiler:
For this season I have a runaway top three — what I think should have been among the clearest in the entire project — and then a relatively secure fourth. The fifth is difficult. In consideration are Dominique Wilkins, Isiah Thomas, Charles Barkley, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Sidney Moncrief, and Alex English.

Isiah is a first round exit and I am not clear he outperformed Wilkins. But Wilkins was abysmal against the Celtics. When even Trex is not giving for the guy a fifth place vote this year, hard for me to get there. Yeah, he was second place in MVP voting; turns out awards are often problematic , who knew. Just because he was widely perceived as the league’s second best forward does not mean he was, or at least not this year.
:thinking:
I gave stronger consideration to Kareem. In the regular season, I probably have him here without question, and through two rounds of the postseason he maintained well. And his third round is not even bad… but then I look at how English and the Nuggets fared against the Rockets by comparison, and I would need to be a lot higher on his defence this year to excuse that disparity in production.

In offensive player of the year, I said I cannot elevate English over Barkley for that award because Barkley was better across the board, and he was. Offensively. But my major criticism of Barkley has always been his defence. He is better now than he will be on the Suns, and much better than he will be on the Rockets, but I still see him as a clear negative. Luckily he plays with Cheeks and Bobby Jones, so the team is relatively insulated, but on the Nuggets we might see more of a retrain of their 1981-84 teams. English is not a particularly “good” defender, but I would characterise him as reasonably fine. The Nuggets have been and will be consistently decent on that end since the 1984 trade with the Blazers. That does not mean I think he is better than Barkley, but the gap narrows.

And that gap narrowing is important here because what I am assessing is level of accomplishment, with a strong eye to the postseason. English takes his team six games against the Rockets. It is not especially competitive on average, but they were five points away from pushing it to a Game 7. Overall, solid performance. On the other side of the bracket, injuries make a lot of noise. The 76ers do not have Moses. Barkley beats a bad Bullets team 3-2, loses 0-3 against the Moncrief Bucks, but is 3-1 against the Moncrief-less Bucks. The Bucks move on to the conference finals where the Celtics casually sweep them. Moncrief misses another game and is visibly limited.

Wait, what about Moncrief then? Well, I see him as an ensemble player. I think I gave him some cursory support in 1984 because he led a conference finals team in postseason minutes and assists (on top of being their best perimetre defender), but he has never been a truly foundational piece to me. Generally not a great postseason scorer, and since Marques faded out as the team’s best player, the Bucks have been underwhelming in the postseason relative to their SRS finishes. I will not go so far as to equate them with George Karl’s Sonics, because they have not experienced an upset anywhere near the scale of what the Sonics had in two consecutive years, but they have not even come close to the heights of their regular seasons. 4.4 PSRS next year. 2.8 PSRS in 1984 and 1988. And -0.6 PSRS in 1985. This year is skewed by Moncrief’s absences, but I do not think his four missed games elevate their real level too far above their +1.0 overall result. The Moncrief-led Bucks are a consistently okay postseason team. Good enough to usually win as a higher seed, but not offering much more than that. And to me Moncrief is not that far removed from Pressey and Cummings.

So where does that leave us? Isiah is a first round exit to Wilkins, Wilkins struggles to score against the Celtics, Moncrief is a lesser star on an unspectacular ensemble, Barkley loses to that unspectacular ensemble and is only even close because Moncrief is injured, Kareem struggles against the Rockets, and English gets kind-of close to going to a Game 7 against the Rockets.

Well, if no one impresses me much in the postseason, then the most sensible route is probably to defer to the best regular season player, and I think that was Kareem.

Fourth place is McHale. Best defender on the Celtics throughout the postseason, frequently their best scorer, and is on a path to an outstanding 1987 campaign.

Third place is Magic. As I have pretty consistently felt, I prefer him in the postseason to Bird, and since Nixon left I think he has been right on par with Bird in the regular season. If I were feeling petulant and in the mood to penalise Bird for arbitrary and spiteful reasons, that alone could give me easy justification to move Bird to third. But that is not how I have approached this project. When I think of 1986, do I think of Magic before I think of Bird? Of course not. He did not win MVP or even come close, the Lakers were not the best regular season team, and he was a 1-4 conference finals exit to the Finals runner-up. Great season, but nothing there is particularly memorable, and this is not a case of 1979 Kareem where he was just so laughably ahead of the pack that I can excuse the seasonal irrelevance. Anyone voting for him top two is fine with me, but by my voting standards, two players defined the season more.

I have gestured at there being some amount of intuitive sense to the “MVP + Finals MVP = RPoY” approach. One is the most important regular season award, and the other is the most important postseason award, ergo winning both means you must have been the most important player that season. Again, if people want to use that approach, I think it is fine. But it also removes any responsibility for personal assessment. This is most apparent with the 1970 Willis Reed situation, where many can rationally feel he should not have won MVP (generally preferring Kareem or West), and many can rationally feel he should not have won Finals MVP (generally preferring Frazier). If we want to create room for personal assessment, perhaps then we can say “top regular season player + best player on title team = RPoY,” in much the way others will take the approach “my assessed overall best player = RPoY” or “top regular season player = RPoY if nothing in the postseason clearly changes my regular season assessment”.

With Bird, this is where I stand: I do not think he was necessarily the best or most valuable regular season player, but I agree with the MVP award and am fine penalising his chief competitors for missed time. I do not think he was necessarily the best player in the Finals, but he was the best player on the title winning team and had a strong enough Finals that I would be surprised to see anyone else win Finals MVP.

But my personal standard is which player do I think ultimately defined the season, and that is not 1:1 with “MVP (or equivalent) + Finals MVP (or equivalent = automatic RPoY”. It usually is, but not always. And the easiest way to disrupt that is for there to be another player who impressed me more in the postseason over a large enough sample that it is possible for me to feel confident in them as the better player, while also achieving enough on their own that when I think about the season in question, I can picture them equally or above the “MVP and Finals MVP” (or equivalent).

This is rare but does come up a few times. 1970 is a good choice where people can think of that season and picture someone other than Willis Reed. In 1962, plenty of people take Wilt over Russell even though Russell won MVP and likely would have won Finals MVP. To further extend these hypotheticals, if Rick Barry had won MVP in 1975, many would still prefer Bob McAdoo, and if Giannis and won MVP in 2021, a large group would still try to swear by Jokic.

I suspect the disconnect this year is that the average person does not see 1986 Hakeem on the level of most of those “losers”, save perhaps 1975 McAdoo, and the average person sees 1986 Bird on a level above several of those “winners”. In that case, maybe the most analogous year (for multiple reasons) is 1981. Bird could have won MVP; he was second, after all, and 1981 Erving’s negative on/off data would have been disqualifying for many voters data. He also could have won Finals MVP, although regardless of whether he did, everyone recognises him as the top player on the team. Nevertheless, some do prefer Moses that year, perhaps tying his 1981 to his 1982 and 1983.

I have never thought too highly of Bird. Sure, relative to his era he is a stand-out, and I am fine qualifying as a top fifteen to twenty peak in that sense, but neither matches his reputation. People deify Bird, sometimes even those who are relatively neutral arbiters (i.e. not a childhood fan, and not looking to over-credit him for his skin tone). They will reference the mythos, and the aura, and the highlights, and the reputation. They will force him into abstracted personal theories of the way the game “should” be played. When I watch him, I am comparatively underwhelmed. Good not great scorer. Theoretically good shooter, but not occupying the type of gravity or leveraging the type of movement we will see explode onto the scene in the next few years. Rarely has a negative play, but part of why is because he has so much talent around him that his level of involvement is relatively low for an all-time MVP player. Gifted passer, sure, yet hardly unprecedented, and without anywhere near the volume of his primary rival.

This year specifically has been mythologised by a frankly ludicrous supporting cast, to the point I suspect several all-star wings or forwards could have conceivably won a title in his place. He is famously used as a prop to elevate sophomore Jordan, but that is only possible because of how few people come away from that sweep thinking Bird was the top player in it. And I am generally not enthralled by young Jordan either, so this is a bad place to start. He is the best player against the Hawks, but he is not responsible for Wilkins’s scoring struggles, and I think Wilkins was only the a fringe top five forward that year anyway — and one of the four ahead is Bird’s own teammate! Best player against the Bucks, but I already discussed how I feel topping (an injured) Moncrief is a relatively low individual bar. And then we hit the Finals, which many frame as a playmaking clinic because of the high assist totals but which I end up feeling is something of a first round retread, except this time we are replacing gaudy scoring totals with gaudy defensive involvement.
Olajuwon, who has been playing forward instead of center during much of the postseason, scored 11 points during a frenetic final period. Four of those points came during a crucial stretch when the Rockets outscored the Lakers by 9-2 to build a 114-107 lead with 1 minute 20 seconds remaining.

Olajuwon also had a game-high 12 rebounds - five on offense - that carried Houston to a commanding 45-34 advantage on the boards. ''He was every place he had to be at the right time,'' said Riley, who has guided the Lakers to the finals in each of his four seasons as coach. ''He was just incredible.''
(So much for lacking awareness. :roll: )
LISTEN TO MAGIC Johnson talk and you wonder if he is campaigning forpresident of the Los Angeles chapter of the Akeem Olajuwon fan club.

"In terms of raw athletic ability, Akeem is the best I've ever seen," the Los Angeles Lakers' All-Star guard says.

"I'm definitely amazed at him - at his fakes, his pivot move, his timing on blocked shots, his scoring ability, his effort.

"He's been outstanding against us."

Don't misunderstand Magic. While he applauds Olajuwon's role in the Houston Rockets' building a 2-1 lead over Los Angeles in the best-of-seven NBA Western Conference Finals, he firmly believes, too, that the Lakers can - and must - do a better job against Akeem.

"I'm angry and upset about the way we've played in this series," Johnson says as the defending champion Lakers prepare for Game 4 today at 2:30 p.m. before a sellout crowd at The Summit.

"We can't let the Rockets keep pinning us up under the hoop," Johnson says. "We can't let them take us this easily. We've been backed up under the basket, while they get all the offensive rebounds. You don't let anybody force you to back up in the Western Conference Finals."

The Rockets, however, have done exactly that, especially 7-footer Akeem the Dream and 7-foot-4 center Ralph Sampson.

The Twin Towers have combined for 151 points and 72 rebounds in three games. They are primarily responsible for Houston holding a surprising 137-107 advantage in overall rebounding and a 49-33 edge on the offensive boards.

In their spare time, Olajuwon and Sampson have blocked 20 shots, six more than the entire Los Angeles team.

"We're going after every rebound and trying for every blocked shot, and we'll continue to do that," Olajuwon says. "We don't want to give them any second shots. That's our goal. Offensive rebounding is the key."

The Lakers agree.

"We've got to emphasize defensive rebounding," Johnson says. "We gave up 20 offensive rebounds Friday night (in a 117-109 Houston victory), and that's way too many.

"If we can cut that in half, we'll probably win because we've been shooting 50-60 percent.

"That's what makes me mad. If we weren't making any shots, we could accept it and just say they beat us. But we are shooting well. And we've played good defense. We watch the film and it's clear: We're getting beat by second shots."

Especially by Olajuwon.

Three-year professional Sampson has been effective playing head-to-head against 17-year Los Angeles legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

But Olajuwon, who is completing only his second professional season, has been the standout.

"And Akeem probably is going to overshadow Ralph forever because there are so many things he can do," Johnson says.

"That's not a knock at Ralph. We know Ralph is good. And he helps make Akeem better. But Akeem does so much. He knows he can score every time he gets in a one-on-one situation. He can score off the glass, on the jump shot, even on the fast break because he's so fast.

"And the stats don't tell you everything. I wish I'd have known two days ago he used to be a soccer goalie. He stole the ball from me once Friday night when he moved his hands quicker than I ever thought he could. I've made that same pass hundreds of times. But his hand reaction stole it. That's a soccer goalie."

Reminded that Olajuwon has played basketball only for seven years, Johnson says, "He looks like he's done it forever. His repertoire is amazing for a man who has played such a short time."

"He's got an excellent workmanlike game," Johnson says. "He's the best in the league at second, third and fourth efforts.

"But we've got to extend him to sixth and seventh efforts. We haven't done all we can do. He wouldn't be playing 45 minutes and scoring 40 points if we were."

The Lakers say they must defend Olajuwon long before he gets the ball.

"We've got to work harder after he's got it, but before is more important," Johnson says. "We've got to work together. If he gets in a one-on-one situation, and if he only has to make one move, he's too good to stop. So we can't let him have those situations.
(Sure sounds like these guys think he has “amazing moves”. :wink: )
The Rockets now lead the best-of-seven series 3-1 following their third consecutive victory and have added history as their ally. Only four teams in the annals of the NBA have ever rallied from a 3-1 deficit to win a playoff series, the last being Boston over Philadelphia in 1981.

But historical perspective does not loom nearly as large over the Lakers as the sheer presence of Akeem Olajuwon, who has made this playoff series his oyster and added yet another near-perfect specimen to his string of pearls.

Olajuwon again used his strength, quickness and relentless drive to pile up 35 points, 8 rebounds, 4 blocked shots and left the Lakers in the same ruined shape as Mexico City after the earthquake.

He has left the Lakers a befuddled group, helpless and moving toward an inevitable elimination. A team waiting to be put out of its misery.

Olajuwon led a Houston assault that outrebounded LA for the fourth consecutive game and treated the Lakers like interlopers at a private party.

The Rockets beat LA 49-38 on the backboards and dominated the inside on defense by blocking seven shots.

Olajuwon continues to be the most unsolvable riddle facing the Lakers, grabbing every key rebound and making every key play even on a day when he did not have the benefit of his bookend teammate Ralph Sampson for very long.

Sampson, shackled by foul problems, played just six minutes in the entire second half. But the Rockets never missed a beat and pulled away again from LA down the stretch.

Olajuwon was able to have his way again, despite a more determined, more physical Laker effort that tried to push him, bang him and throw him to the floor at every opportunity.

They beat the bleep out of me," Olajuwon said. But that is OK. If they want to play that kind of ball, play physical, I like it. That is the style that I first learned how to play, and I am not afraid to bang anybody."

Olajuwon's shooting touch was off a bit on Sunday as he hit just 11 of 23 shots from the field. But the fury with which he latched onto six offensive rebounds and his explosiveness in going to the hoop, resulted in his virtually establishing residence on the foul line, hitting 13 of 20 free throws.

Lakers Coach Pat Riley has thrown everything but the proverbial kitchen sink at Olajuwon in terms of defense, only to watch it all wind up going down the drain.

Olajuwon makes his move so fast that there has been no time for the Lakers' double-teaming defense to even develop.

He is a twisting, juking, flying explosive device in the Lakers' faces, running the floor faster than any big man in memory and seemingly materializing at the last second to snatch away rebounds, then ramming them home.

Olajuwon is not playing the center position by the book, he is writing a brand-new one.

Hakeem’s Lakers upset is far and away more impressive than any series win in Bird’s career, with much less help. Sampson undeniably played well in the conference finals, but Sampson having the absolute best stretch of games in his entire career means he ends up being maybe on par with a typical Kevin McHale series. Then Reid and McCray are both good, and they play consistently well, but in the sense that you feel fine about them rather than are outright impressed by them. And after that the Rockets drop off to a bunch of guys who can have their moments in relief but are also a far cry from Bill Walton or Michael Cooper.

The most frustrating part of this season is that for as outstanding as Hakeem and the Rockets were in the postseason, they could have been even better. The offence struggled against Dennis Johnson and the Celtics’ historically excellent rotation of bigs. I still consider Hakeem the most impressive player in the Finals despite those scoring struggles, but part of me wonders how much better he could have been if he had a real starting point guard to direct the offence. While Lucas was not a particular star, he had been in excellent form before his off-court addictions caught up to him. It is the sad story of most of Hakeem’s career that he never had much in the way of point guard play, and that had a habit of catching up with the Rockets despite a slew of extraordinary and valiant efforts from Hakeem.

Even still, Hakeem dominated the Lakers. When I think about this season, yeah, I think about the Celtics. I think about how they added a miraculous healthy season of Bill Walton and controlled the league, yet were still given a scare by, no, not the Lakers, but an upstart Rockets team led by the league’s most spectacular sophomore. The Celtics did what they were supposed to do. Hakeem did what no one expected, and for a moment made people wonder if he could do it twice.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kevin McHale
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
ShaqAttac
Rookie
Posts: 1,172
And1: 362
Joined: Oct 18, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#88 » by ShaqAttac » Fri Nov 8, 2024 11:47 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:HAKEEM
Great O, best D. and his team better than peak MJs with maybe less help. I ain't votin 90 MJ 2nd just cause he lost so I'm not gonna vote 86 Dream 2nd just coz he lost. Even bird #1 ppl say Hakeem might have outplayed Bird and whatever Magic numbers and assists Hakeem faces him and Kareem and snaps them in 5. That's crazy. Maybe he wasnt so good after but this the 86 thread and 86 Hakeem went bananas and should be #1. It kind of says something people are using what people said about hakeem back then to say Hakeem wasn't all that while ppl who think Hakeems all that be pulling out numbers and eyetest and deep dives on that everyone but i guess LA don't really got answers for.

MAGIC
Best O and great impact but you cant be 1 when a dude shows up with less help and drops u in 5.

MJ
yea he missed alot of games but who better matters more. if bird and mj both not good at d and both good at fake assists then i gotta go with the guy bird calls jesus coz he alot better scorer

BIRD
MVP and FMVP and wins da chip. I get they dont look so good but impact is impact and mchale gets smacked however good his d be

Actually imma go
BARKLEY
scored the most and got the most boards and went crazy when his team almost made the cf vs team that almost won 60

HM:
MCHALE
2nd best player and best D on superteam. Ceo point out they were better on D and O but his team doing so good without him makes u ask.

MJ at 3 seems so non-serious. He played 18 games this year. He only started 7 games too. There's no plausible argument that MJ brought more value in 18 games than Bird did in 82.

u right tbh
User avatar
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,047
And1: 5,844
Joined: Jul 24, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#89 » by AEnigma » Fri Nov 8, 2024 11:51 pm

You guys are really cutting it close with these.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 8,142
And1: 5,236
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#90 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 12:11 am

OhayoKD wrote:Kola's Ballot
Spoiler:
1986

Arc Highlight - Conference Cross-Over, Battle 5:

The next era’s strongest hooper decimated Boston’s super-school without his own school’s 2nd most powerful; for the first time in 99 Battles, the king of milkmen experienced the height of tension

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Almost Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons Junpei Johnson - 1 arc use
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
+ Houston School reaches Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Los Angeles School - Bucket Getter - Special Grade; Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Hoop Flash vs Boston School, Battle 5 - Bucket Getter - Special Grade; Rim-Protection - Special Grade; Reverse-Ball Technique; Bumbling Birdie
- Sealed for 14 battles


2. Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
- Los Angeles School misses Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Spurs
- Hooper Burnout vs Dallas School
- Hooper Burnout vs Houston School

3. Micheal Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 2
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash vs Boston School, Game 2 - Bucket Getter - Special Grade
- Sealed for 54 battles

4. Larry Bird - (Grain Version) Todo
Grade: 1 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Precision Passer
+ Idle Cardio
- Useless Helper
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3 2
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 3 4
+ Floor-General - Grade 1 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a successful non-player NBA career, Bird will have to deal with a chronic back condition while he plays

Key Chapters:
+ Boston School wins Conference Cross-over
+ Crushes Chicago School

5. Kevin Mchale - (Grain Version) Noritoshi
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Piercing Dribbles
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 2
+ Stoppah - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 3

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Houston School - Bucket Getter - Grade 1; Rim-Protection - Grade 1; Stoppah - Grade 1

I'd have tried to get this poster to change their Jordan vote too, but I can't because they're not participating in the discussion, which is the problem with mail in votes.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
User avatar
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,047
And1: 5,844
Joined: Jul 24, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE 

Post#91 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 12:16 am

Votes are tallied. I recorded 19 approved voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Trex, B-Mitch 30, 70sFan, ShaqAttac, ILikeShaiGuys, Penbeast, OhayoKD (submitting “kola’s” ballot as his official one), ceoofkobefans, falcolombardi, McBubbles, Paulluxx, konr0167, Bad Gatorade, One_and_Done, trelos, capfan33, and Narigo. DJoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, trelos, 70sFan, ceoofkobefans, IlikeShaiGuys, and falcolombardi also voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1985-86 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Magic Johnson (5)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Magic Johnson   6   2   0    36    0.900
2. Larry Bird    2   5   1    19    0.650
3. Isiah Thomas    0   0   5    5   0.125
4. Michael Jordan  0   1   0   3    0.075
5. Charles Barkley   0   0   1    1    0.025
5. Alex English   0   0   1    1    0.025


(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Mark Eaton (3)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Mark Eaton    6   2   0    36    0.900
2. Hakeem Olajuwon    2   5   1    26   0.650
3. Manute Bol    0   1   1    4    0.100
4. Kevin McHale   0   0   3    3    0.075
5. Paul Pressey   0   0   1    1    0.025
5. Sidney Moncrief   0   0   1    1    0.025


In the prior project, there were 22 votes, with penbeast overlapping. With his prior ballot removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 40 total ballots:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Larry Bird  28  4  5  2  1   340    0.850
2. Hakeem Olajuwon   9  13  14  3  1   261   0.653
3. Magic Johnson  3  23  14  0  0   261   0.653
4. Kevin McHale  0  0  2  12  5   51   0.128
5. Charles Barkley  0  0  1  7  9   35   0.088
6. Dominique Wilkins   0  0  1  7  6   32   0.080
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0 0 0 3 7   16   0.040
8. Isiah Thomas   0  0  1  3  2   16   0.040
9. Michael Jordan   0  0  1  2  2   13   0.033
10. Sidney Moncrief   0  0  1  0  6   11   0.028
11. Alex English   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.008
12. Adrian Dantley   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003


And for those who want to see the results exclusive to this thread…
Retro Player of the Year — Hakeem Olajuwon

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Hakeem Olajuwon   9  6  2  2  0   148   0.779
2. Larry Bird  7  4  5  2  1   130    0.684
3. Magic Johnson  3  9  7  0  0   128   0.674
4. Kevin McHale  0  0  2  7  5   36   0.189
5. Charles Barkley  0  0  1  3  2   16   0.084
6. Michael Jordan   0  0  1  2  2   13   0.068
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0 0 0 1 5   8   0.042
8. Sidney Moncrief   0  0  1  0  1   6   0.032
9. Isiah Thomas   0  0  0  1  2   5   0.026
10. Alex English   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.016
11. Adrian Dantley   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.005

1987 thread will open shortly.
Top10alltime
Freshman
Posts: 70
And1: 45
Joined: Jan 04, 2025
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#92 » by Top10alltime » Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:26 pm

Larry Bird 1986 NBA finals game 1 tracking:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qev4NIXYz8amvqN45TipHnZK1JaAEBMAdSIQJSQiphU/edit?usp=drivesdk

Final tally -
17 DTOs
4 EDTOs
9 creation
6x doubled
88 possessions available
OhayoKD
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,903
And1: 3,849
Joined: Jun 22, 2022
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#93 » by OhayoKD » Sun May 11, 2025 9:30 pm

Top10alltime wrote:Larry Bird 1986 NBA finals game 1 tracking:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qev4NIXYz8amvqN45TipHnZK1JaAEBMAdSIQJSQiphU/edit?usp=drivesdk

Final tally -
17 DTOs
4 EDTOs
9 creation
6x doubled
88 possessions available

This gives us, per-possession

.193 DTOs
.045 EDTOS
.1 Creations
.07 doubled
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
Top10alltime
Freshman
Posts: 70
And1: 45
Joined: Jan 04, 2025
 

Re: Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#94 » by Top10alltime » Thu May 15, 2025 12:54 am

OhayoKD wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:Larry Bird 1986 NBA finals game 1 tracking:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qev4NIXYz8amvqN45TipHnZK1JaAEBMAdSIQJSQiphU/edit?usp=drivesdk

Final tally -
17 DTOs
4 EDTOs
9 creation
6x doubled
88 possessions available

This gives us, per-possession

.193 DTOs
.045 EDTOS
.1 Creations
.07 doubled


I have been thinking, we could use instead of per possession, a per 75 possession, since none of us use a per possession stats.

Return to Player Comparisons