2024-2025 Regular Season Game 16: Orlando Magic (9-6) at Los Angeles Clippers (8-7) - 10:30pm

[JoshuaPotter]

Orlando is where players come to get paid for lesser results, with lesser expectations, because the fan base will make exceptions for them at every turn. Look no further than Fultz or Elfrid.

Oh now you are just threatening me with a good time in terms of talking points.

But yeah, we talked about this and agreed plenty the last 2 years. I only defer slightly on this point because Jett aint it chief. At least not yet.

Cole, I have no friggin clue man. It's like he got payed, came out as the person we thought he always was (potential 6th man of the year) and somehow degraded to 3rd string. That's on him. I am not sure that is front office at all.

Isaac, still brings something tangible when he plays. My word, I need to stop talking here, because that's where it ends.

Point being though, we doubled down on the 3&D group and much like you, I am not sure it was the right play. I had faith that an "upgraded version of Harris" would be shooting 39% on his attempts and to be fair, 39% from him last night, changes enough of the makeup of the game that it BECOMES a different game. So yeah, I get being upset about it.

I just didn't want to turn this into a lets toss all the options out. When the reality was, yes, you want to develop your rookies? You play them last year, when you were literally playing a rapidly declining Cole and a non existent PG in Fultz.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Thing about Suggs comparatively is that he makes huge game shifting plays defensively. KCP is just a solid individual defender at this point.

If Harris, Jett, and KCP cannot shoot the goddamn basketball they are literally worthless out there. It’s like reasons 1-4 they are on the court whatsoever. Anyone capable of creating their own shot at an average level is better 100% at this point.

Ready for scary thoughts with Joshua?

Jett has averaged more 3PM per game then KCP and Harris.

Still sitting down?

Jett Howard has made more total 3's total then KCP and Harris. Harris has 93 minutes more played then Jett. KCP has 345 more minutes played then Jett.

Black is 3 makes behind KCP and 1 ahead of Harris, who are supposed to be specialists with the 3-ball.

I can't make this any more clear then I am. If anything, lack of patience with Jett might be your issue. These numbers are legit eye popping when you consider minutes played.

"But what about garbage time".

I'm sorry, but garbage time shouldn't make up for 345 more minutes played.

I still think the KCP experiment is a potential good one. However, the long term on this being a good idea is starting to not look so good unless somehow KCP averages 100% from all-star break on i'm stumped.

Honestly I thought it wouldn't look this bad, but it really does. I thought Halloween was last month.

This is why for as bad as he has looked, that people were not ok with signing KCP and re-signing Gary. It meant less minutes to go around for Jett and AB unless Cole became totally unplayable (which he did).

Jett hasn't looked good in the minutes he has played. Gradey Dick went from from starting 17/60 games at 20mpg to every single game playing 33mpg. Unfortunately for Jett he isn't good defensively, and Orlando isn't tanking, so he doesn't have free reign to make the same mistakes.

This is the entire issue with the FO taking "both paths" and not prioritizing development over vet play. So now AB looks very good and is getting development, but now that means Cole Anthony has significantly decreased in trade value given his contract. KCP is the second highest paid player on this roster and cant buy a basket. Isaac is technically the highest paid player and averages 16 mpg this season. Orlando is where players come to get paid for lesser results, with lesser expectations, because the fan base will make exceptions for them at every turn. Look no further than Fultz or Elfrid.

NAILED IT you and I have been screaming this for at least 2 years. It gets exhausting listening to the same bs year after year. How many more advanced stats do we need to see that have us a bottom 3 shooting team in the NBA before the FO notices.

The whole KCP signing was them trying to pull the covers over our heads and say see look we did a thing and got a key player from a contending team. Only for us to have that same player already here in Gary Harris, however we all thought it would be a Gary replacement, so it was ok.

Now we've got 2 Gary Harris's and a 6'1" combo guard whose trade value is basically a salary match & belongs on a tanking team. For all the good they've done contract wise (incentive/declining $) they just don't understand the concept of getting out from it when it's shown to be a waste.

I honestly wouldn't be against them going after White or Sexton.. Cole, Jett, Gary, picks should be able to find a combo that gets a deal done.

[VFX]

Orlando is where players come to get paid for lesser results, with lesser expectations, because the fan base will make exceptions for them at every turn. Look no further than Fultz or Elfrid.

Oh now you are just threatening me with a good time in terms of talking points.

But yeah, we talked about this and agreed plenty the last 2 years. I only defer slightly on this point because Jett aint it chief. At least not yet.

Cole, I have no friggin clue man. It's like he got payed, came out as the person we thought he always was (potential 6th man of the year) and somehow degraded to 3rd string. That's on him. I am not sure that is front office at all.

Isaac, still brings something tangible when he plays. My word, I need to stop talking here, because that's where it ends.

Point being though, we doubled down on the 3&D group and much like you, I am not sure it was the right play. I had faith that an "upgraded version of Harris" would be shooting 39% on his attempts and to be fair, 39% from him last night, changes enough of the makeup of the game that it BECOMES a different game. So yeah, I get being upset about it.

I just didn't want to turn this into a lets toss all the options out. When the reality was, yes, you want to develop your rookies? You play them last year, when you were literally playing a rapidly declining Cole and a non existent PG in Fultz.

Agree on all points.

This isn’t to say that I don’t dislike these guys despite telling objective truths about them. It’s nothing personal.

People need to do some digging on Cole Anthony to find the real reason he has looked terrible. The start of last season he looked amazing. Why? Because he WAS 100% the defacto backup sixth man point guard for Orlando. Then Fultz returned to the rotation….

This relegated him to be thrown into stupid lineups with AB and/or Fultz before the Gary/Suggs experiment took off. Go look at the lineups last season. They were a disaster for Cole because Mosely felt obligated to play a bunch of dudes the FO should have obviously moved for that exact reason.

Now? Yeah Cole still looks bad. He has no real role. He’s in the same situation because Black is a better defender on a Mosely coached team. The FO doubled down on dual 3&D back court that 1/2 can provide the “3” in that equation. Cole has shown himself as not confident unless he has a clearly defined role with carved out available minutes. As soon as he has to prove himself of his position he fails by trying to do too much. There is zero upside to playing him over AB and the starting lineup + Gary mitigates him earning it back entirely.

[cedric76]

Few more rebounds and we d have won that game, onto LAL now. Go Magic

[Skybox]

Orlando is where players come to get paid for lesser results, with lesser expectations, because the fan base will make exceptions for them at every turn. Look no further than Fultz or Elfrid.

Oh now you are just threatening me with a good time in terms of talking points.

But yeah, we talked about this and agreed plenty the last 2 years. I only defer slightly on this point because Jett aint it chief. At least not yet.

Cole, I have no friggin clue man. It's like he got payed, came out as the person we thought he always was (potential 6th man of the year) and somehow degraded to 3rd string. That's on him. I am not sure that is front office at all.

Isaac, still brings something tangible when he plays. My word, I need to stop talking here, because that's where it ends.

Point being though, we doubled down on the 3&D group and much like you, I am not sure it was the right play. I had faith that an "upgraded version of Harris" would be shooting 39% on his attempts and to be fair, 39% from him last night, changes enough of the makeup of the game that it BECOMES a different game. So yeah, I get being upset about it.

I just didn't want to turn this into a lets toss all the options out. When the reality was, yes, you want to develop your rookies? You play them last year, when you were literally playing a rapidly declining Cole and a non existent PG in Fultz.

Agree on all points.

This isn’t to say that I don’t dislike these guys despite telling objective truths about them. It’s nothing personal.

People need to do some digging on Cole Anthony to find the real reason he has looked terrible. The start of last season he looked amazing. Why? Because he WAS 100% the defacto backup sixth man point guard for Orlando. Then Fultz returned to the rotation….

This relegated him to be thrown into stupid lineups with AB and/or Fultz before the Gary/Suggs experiment took off. Go look at the lineups last season. They were a disaster for Cole because Mosely felt obligated to play a bunch of dudes the FO should have obviously moved for that exact reason.

Now? Yeah Cole still looks bad. He has no real role. He’s in the same situation because Black is a better defender on a Mosely coached team. The FO doubled down on dual 3&D back court that 1/2 can provide the “3” in that equation. Cole has shown himself as not confident unless he has a clearly defined role with carved out available minutes. As soon as he has to prove himself of his position he fails by trying to do too much. There is zero upside to playing him over AB and the starting lineup + Gary mitigates him earning it back entirely.

Hater. Hater. Hater.

why do you hate them...they're nice guys :banghead:

[JBSouthpaw]

You can add “reaching for Jett Howard” to that list also. All extremely poor decisions.

I @you a few pages back VFX. I don't think a single playmaker from your trade ideas wins us this one, but at least on paper I can say that we needed someone as KCP / Suggs / Harris are struggling to make the 3-ball.

Btw, I am putting Suggs on my list, only because he is struggling. I think 100% once Paolo comes back 3s from him will fall as he feeds off Paolo and Franz super well.

KCP and Harris though. Wow. Just.....wow.

Thing about Suggs comparatively is that he makes huge game shifting plays defensively. KCP is just a solid individual defender at this point.

If Harris, Jett, and KCP cannot shoot the goddamn basketball they are literally worthless out there. It’s like reasons 1-4 they are on the court whatsoever. Anyone capable of creating their own shot at an average level is better 100% at this point.

I can not defend KCP's shooting issues, but I will defend everything else, and also bring down the Suggs love.

Suggs is turning the ball over 2 times more a game than KCP! 2.8 vs .7 and only averaging 1.5 more assists.
They are averaging the same amount of Steals per game.
KCP is averaging the same MPG as Suggs, they've played the same amount of games. ALL OF THEM.
To say KCP came to Orlando as a money grab is garbage, and shouldn't be stood for.
He has been part of the group has had the best defensive performance over a 5 game period since 2018.
Ya'll think this game is easy. be better fans.

[VFX]

I @you a few pages back VFX. I don't think a single playmaker from your trade ideas wins us this one, but at least on paper I can say that we needed someone as KCP / Suggs / Harris are struggling to make the 3-ball.

Btw, I am putting Suggs on my list, only because he is struggling. I think 100% once Paolo comes back 3s from him will fall as he feeds off Paolo and Franz super well.

KCP and Harris though. Wow. Just.....wow.

Thing about Suggs comparatively is that he makes huge game shifting plays defensively. KCP is just a solid individual defender at this point.

If Harris, Jett, and KCP cannot shoot the goddamn basketball they are literally worthless out there. It’s like reasons 1-4 they are on the court whatsoever. Anyone capable of creating their own shot at an average level is better 100% at this point.

I can not defend KCP's shooting issues, but I will defend everything else, and also bring down the Suggs love.

Suggs is turning the ball over 2 times more a game than KCP! 2.8 vs .7 and only averaging 1.5 more assists.
They are averaging the same amount of Steals per game.
KCP is averaging the same MPG as Suggs, they've played the same amount of games. ALL OF THEM.
To say KCP came to Orlando as a money grab is garbage, and shouldn't be stood for.

1. Are you providing context to the difference in roles between these two as a comparison? Suggs has been absolutely tasked with providing more ball movement than KCP as soon as Paolo went down. What is the time of possession difference between the two? KCP barely touches the ball.

2. Suggs also averages a block a game. KCP does not. If you look beyond box scores you know without a doubt Suggs is providing more defensively. It’s not really an argument. Unless you are being disingenuous by cherry picking stats to prop up an argument.

3. KCP has regressed in nearly EVERY scoring metric in EVERY season worth of data across his entire career since stepping foot in Orlando aside from his rookie season. I’m not saying he phoning it in intentionally. I’m stating a fact that doesn’t make his signing look appealing regardless of how fans like yourself want to spin it.

“Be better fans” really means “overlook poor decisions”

[Bensational]

6 game win streak and the forum goes dead quiet. 1 loss and everything is the worst again. A lot of people seem to enjoy the struggles more than the success.

[VFX]

6 game win streak and the forum goes dead quiet. 1 loss and everything is the worst again. A lot of people seem to enjoy the struggles more than the success.

This was a scheduled loss IMO. Magic never play Clippers well or haven’t recently. They looked great against Phoenix and AB really stepped up in that game.

Better?

[Skybox]

6 game win streak and the forum goes dead quiet. 1 loss and everything is the worst again. A lot of people seem to enjoy the struggles more than the success.

There was plenty of celebration around Franz and AB...it's certainly balanced.

Yay.

[JBSouthpaw]

Thing about Suggs comparatively is that he makes huge game shifting plays defensively. KCP is just a solid individual defender at this point.

If Harris, Jett, and KCP cannot shoot the goddamn basketball they are literally worthless out there. It’s like reasons 1-4 they are on the court whatsoever. Anyone capable of creating their own shot at an average level is better 100% at this point.

I can not defend KCP's shooting issues, but I will defend everything else, and also bring down the Suggs love.

Suggs is turning the ball over 2 times more a game than KCP! 2.8 vs .7 and only averaging 1.5 more assists.
They are averaging the same amount of Steals per game.
KCP is averaging the same MPG as Suggs, they've played the same amount of games. ALL OF THEM.
To say KCP came to Orlando as a money grab is garbage, and shouldn't be stood for.

1. Are you providing context to the difference in roles between these two as a comparison? Suggs has been absolutely tasked with providing more ball movement than KCP as soon as Paolo went down. What is the time of possession difference between the two? KCP barely touches the ball.

2. Suggs also averages a block a game. KCP does not. If you look beyond box scores you know without a doubt Suggs is providing more defensively. It’s not really an argument. Unless you are being disingenuous by cherry picking stats to prop up an argument.

3. KCP has regressed in nearly EVERY scoring metric in EVERY season worth of data across his entire career since stepping foot in Orlando aside from his rookie season. I’m not saying he phoning it in intentionally. I’m stating a fact that doesn’t make his signing look appealing regardless of how fans like yourself want to spin it.

“Be better fans” really means “overlook poor decisions”

This isn't fact
" If Harris, Jett, and KCP cannot shoot the goddamn basketball they are literally worthless out there. "

Either is "Orlando is where players come to get paid for lesser results, with lesser expectations" Fultz and Payton were your examples. Wrong on both.
1. Payton was drafted, didn't come from somewhere else
2. Fultz was bought super low and until his final season had really brought his stock up.

KCP isn't a poor decision (yet), you just want to make declarations like above. That is poor fandom.
It was the right move for this team at the time, it was widely approved.

I don't have time for you trolls.

[VFX]

I can not defend KCP's shooting issues, but I will defend everything else, and also bring down the Suggs love.

Suggs is turning the ball over 2 times more a game than KCP! 2.8 vs .7 and only averaging 1.5 more assists.
They are averaging the same amount of Steals per game.
KCP is averaging the same MPG as Suggs, they've played the same amount of games. ALL OF THEM.
To say KCP came to Orlando as a money grab is garbage, and shouldn't be stood for.

1. Are you providing context to the difference in roles between these two as a comparison? Suggs has been absolutely tasked with providing more ball movement than KCP as soon as Paolo went down. What is the time of possession difference between the two? KCP barely touches the ball.

2. Suggs also averages a block a game. KCP does not. If you look beyond box scores you know without a doubt Suggs is providing more defensively. It’s not really an argument. Unless you are being disingenuous by cherry picking stats to prop up an argument.

3. KCP has regressed in nearly EVERY scoring metric in EVERY season worth of data across his entire career since stepping foot in Orlando aside from his rookie season. I’m not saying he phoning it in intentionally. I’m stating a fact that doesn’t make his signing look appealing regardless of how fans like yourself want to spin it.

“Be better fans” really means “overlook poor decisions”

This isn't fact
" If Harris, Jett, and KCP cannot shoot the goddamn basketball they are literally worthless out there. "

Either is "Orlando is where players come to get paid for lesser results, with lesser expectations" Fultz and Payton were your examples. Wrong on both.
1. Payton was drafted, didn't come from somewhere else
2. Fultz was bought super low and until his final season had really brought his stock up.

KCP isn't a poor decision (yet), you just want to make declarations like above. That is poor fandom.
It was the right move for this team at the time, it was widely approved.

I don't have time for you trolls.

Payton and Fultz were given ample opportunities here in Orlando longer than any other team would give them. They signed Fultz to a ridiculous contract he couldn’t even prove himself worthy of years after the fact. People like you made exceptions for them for YEARS despite evidence hitting you in the face season after season. Neither are even in the league anymore.

What does KCP provide that Black does not currently at his price point? Answer that question.

Yeah, it was at the time by a majority of people that eat the slop Weltman feeds them. Is it now? That’s the entire argument. The answer is no. Now, if KCP somehow returns to his 12-14ppg averages, instead of his 6.5ppg dropoff this season, then maybe I’ll change my opinion of him that I had months before I even saw him play here.

Being upset when someone provides you with a verifiable take that you dislike isn’t a “troll”. And apparently you DO because you’ve responded to things that have hurt your feelings regarding underperforming players that are barely worth mentioning when not in Orlando.

[RookieStar]

6 game win streak and the forum goes dead quiet. 1 loss and everything is the worst again. A lot of people seem to enjoy the struggles more than the success.

On the bright side... this is just like those peak D12 era. Winning GTs have half of the posts compared when we lose a game.

[JoshuaPotter]

6 game win streak and the forum goes dead quiet. 1 loss and everything is the worst again. A lot of people seem to enjoy the struggles more than the success.

There was plenty of celebration around Franz and AB...it's certainly balanced.

Yay.

Black being the "north star" needs a revival tour. @Eyriq.

Also do you see when I @ you Skybox?

[Fortune Teller]

I don't know if Weltman is hyper-obsessed with continuity for continuity's sake or just afraid to make a bad decision, but he refuses to kick players to the curb until they become an embarrassment to themselves, and even then he gives them one more year.

How many Gary Harris stat lines have we seen over the past few years that were 0-0-0-0-0-0, and just when we were sure Welt had stopped contributing to the Gary Harris charitable fund, he brought him back again this year.

Cole looks like Fultz rubbed off on him and now he doesn't even know how to play basketball. Even if that hadn't happened it was certainly arguable that he had not business receiving that contract extension.

Fultz was afraid to shoot and probably wouldn't have gotten the vet minimum anywhere else, but was able to extend his career for another 6 years here and build up his retirement nest egg.

Mo Bamba got an extension with no market competition after spending his first 4 years here not developing even a little bit.

Terrence Ross quit trying two years before he stopped playing here with no ramifications.

And no GM in the league would still be paying Isaac after 8 seasons of unreliability and multiple seasons missed in their entirety. Yet here he is, still punching the clock for his 14 mpg cardio workout while being the team's highest-paid player for the third straight season.

How much could this team have improved over the past several years if we didn't keep running back the same garbage for no apparent reason?

As for KCP, he was redundant and did not address a need, UNLESS he could be a knock-down 3-point shooter. So much cap space, so little to show for it.

[Skybox]

6 game win streak and the forum goes dead quiet. 1 loss and everything is the worst again. A lot of people seem to enjoy the struggles more than the success.

There was plenty of celebration around Franz and AB...it's certainly balanced.

Yay.

Black being the "north star" needs a revival tour. @Eyriq.

Also do you see when I @ you Skybox?

I don’t understand the question

[Bensational]

There was plenty of celebration around Franz and AB...it's certainly balanced.

Yay.

Black being the "north star" needs a revival tour. @Eyriq.

Also do you see when I @ you Skybox?

I don’t understand the question

Josh - @ doesn’t work on the forum like it does on TikTok/Insta/etc. you have to use the “quote” function for a user’s handle to notified they’ve been mentioned.

[msmoore66]

Man when I read through these game threads from losses, Third Eye Blind's - "Jumper" just keeps playing through my head, largely the opening line.

Watch on YouTube

[JoshuaPotter]

Black being the "north star" needs a revival tour. @Eyriq.

Also do you see when I @ you Skybox?

I don’t understand the question

Josh - @ doesn’t work on the forum like it does on TikTok/Insta/etc. you have to use the “quote” function for a user’s handle to notified they’ve been mentioned.

Thanks Ben. I figured.