Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[winforlose]

So now you've moved the goalposts all the way from "most important" to "functional"?

I don't even know how to respond to that...

Speaking of moving the goal post, here is what I said “ You win or lose at the PG and C and our rotations are deficient in both.”

Edit to add: one more quote from myself from above to prevent further misquotes “ For the reasons stated above PG and C are the most important for any team. When you fail at those positions everything gets significantly harder.”

And this direct quote from Post #546:

"I didn’t say you only need a PG and C, I said they are the most important positions."

My goalposts remain firmly planted.

I even edited my last post to include that quote. It doesn’t mean your best players need to be a PG and C, it means you cannot be deficient in those positions. If you fail at PG or C you make things much harder. We fail at both every game. Go back and read my posts from late last week I said the same thing. There is a reason teams keep trying to upgrade their PGs and Cs.

[BlacJacMac]

I guess we just have very different definitions of “most important”.

[shrink]

Are we 100% sure we have them? I still haven't seen anything definitive saying we have his Full Bird and not his Early Bird.

I still think it seems wrong that we would've renounced his Bird Rights when we resigned him, bit that's been reported multiple places.

He was literally signed using Bird rights in 2023. That comes from Keith Smith at Spotrac. Those don't just disappear.

I think there needs to be an education seminar on which sources to believe when it comes to the salary cap and who is just guessing.

Was he? I thought we signed him with part of our MLE because he signed for less than the QO. So if we didn't extend the QO, we lost his Bird Rights to save 2M. That would make him an Early Bird candidate this offseason.

As a second apron team, we didn’t even have an MLE.

If you need more verification, here’s a list of how each team used it’s MLE

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/07/how-teams-are-using-2024-25-mid-level-exceptions.html

[Klomp]

He was literally signed using Bird rights in 2023. That comes from Keith Smith at Spotrac. Those don't just disappear.

I think there needs to be an education seminar on which sources to believe when it comes to the salary cap and who is just guessing.

Was he? I thought we signed him with part of our MLE because he signed for less than the QO. So if we didn't extend the QO, we lost his Bird Rights to save 2M. That would make him an Early Bird candidate this offseason.

As a second apron team, we didn’t even have an MLE.

If you need more verification, here’s a list of how each team used it’s MLE

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/07/how-teams-are-using-2024-25-mid-level-exceptions.html

This was two summers ago, when NAW re-signed. No second apron at that point.

[shrink]

Was he? I thought we signed him with part of our MLE because he signed for less than the QO. So if we didn't extend the QO, we lost his Bird Rights to save 2M. That would make him an Early Bird candidate this offseason.

As a second apron team, we didn’t even have an MLE.

If you need more verification, here’s a list of how each team used it’s MLE

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/07/how-teams-are-using-2024-25-mid-level-exceptions.html

This was two summers ago, when NAW re-signed. No second apron at that point.

Sorry. My knee jerk reaction any more is to say, “The Second Apron Forbids It!”

The year before, we used up almost all the Mid-Level on Troy Brown Jr ($4) and Shake Milton ($5). NAW was Bird rights.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/31574/nickeil-alexander-walker

Here’s Spotrac confirming NAW was signed wih Bird rights.

[cmoss84]

OKAY. I've utilized my inner beautiful mind...drank beer and ate pizza, wore three markers out writing numbers on windows, and got high. I have created the perfect solution for four NBA teams to better themselves...now AND future. Feel free to pass this idea on to Adam "Silver Bells"
HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!

Toronto Raptors IN: Brandon Ingram, Julius Randle, NAW, Leonard Miller, Antonio Reeves, '25 FRP (Det), '25 SRP (Utah), '25 FRP (Utah)
OUT: Scottie Barnes, Bruce Brown Jr., Jakob Poeltl, Kelly Olynyk, Walter, Shead, Battle
(1st apron hard-capped)
Mitchell-NAW-Barrett-Dick-Agbaji-Ingram-Randle-Boucher-Mogbo-Miller

New Orleans Pelicans IN: Jaden, Clarkson, Olynyk, Minott
OUT: Ingram, Herb Jones, Reeves
(1st apron hard-capped)
Murray-McCullum-Clarkson-Hawkins-Jaden-Murphy III-Olynyk-Boston-Green-Missi

Utah Jazz IN: Poeltl, Jones, Walter, Garza
OUT: Clarkson, Kessler, '25 FRP
(under 1st apron)
Sexton-George-Jones-Lauri-Juzang-Philpowski-Sensabaugh-Collins-Poeltl-Eubanks

Your Minnesota Timberwolves IN: Scottie Barnes, Bruce Brown Jr., Walker Kessler, Jamal Shead, Jamison Battle
OUT: Julius Randle, Jaden, NAW, Garza, Minott, Miller, '25 SRP (Utah)
(under 1st apron)
Conley-RD-DD-ANT-BBJr-NAZ-Barnes-Rudy-Kessler-TSJ-Battle

[Domejandro]

OKAY. I've utilized my inner beautiful mind...drank beer and ate pizza, wore three markers out writing numbers on windows, and got high. I have created the perfect solution for four NBA teams to better themselves...now AND future. Feel free to pass this idea on to Adam "Silver Bells"
HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!

Spoiler:

Toronto Raptors IN: Brandon Ingram, Julius Randle, NAW, Leonard Miller, Antonio Reeves, '25 FRP (Det), '25 SRP (Utah), '25 FRP (Utah)
OUT: Scottie Barnes, Bruce Brown Jr., Jakob Poeltl, Kelly Olynyk, Walter, Shead, Battle
(1st apron hard-capped)
Mitchell-NAW-Barrett-Dick-Agbaji-Ingram-Randle-Boucher-Mogbo-Miller

New Orleans Pelicans IN: Jaden, Clarkson, Olynyk, Minott
OUT: Ingram, Herb Jones, Reeves
(1st apron hard-capped)
Murray-McCullum-Clarkson-Hawkins-Jaden-Murphy III-Olynyk-Boston-Green-Missi

Utah Jazz IN: Poeltl, Jones, Walter, Garza
OUT: Clarkson, Kessler, '25 FRP
(under 1st apron)
Sexton-George-Jones-Lauri-Juzang-Philpowski-Sensabaugh-Collins-Poeltl-Eubanks

Your Minnesota Timberwolves IN: Scottie Barnes, Bruce Brown Jr., Walker Kessler, Jamal Shead, Jamison Battle
OUT: Julius Randle, Jaden, NAW, Garza, Minott, Miller, '25 SRP (Utah)
(under 1st apron)
Conley-RD-DD-ANT-BBJr-NAZ-Barnes-Rudy-Kessler-TSJ-Battle

This is such a nonstarter for the Toronto Raptors that there isn’t even a conceivable way of fixing it, if I’m being honest. It’s not particularly great for New Orleans either.

[Norseman79]

How long does TC have to make a move before the season is lost?

[winforlose]

How long does TC have to make a move before the season is lost?

Every year at least one team usually goes on a big run and surprises everyone. Last year Dallas looked like they would miss the play in, then they got the 5 seed. We have time, but the move has to be perfect. At this point we are unlikely to move any wolf from last season. That means Randle is the key, and TC isn’t likely to get good value back for him if we are struggling (negotiating from a position of weakness.) I said in the preseason I didn’t want management to **** it up after a WCF year, and it looks pretty ***** right now.

[Guest84]

How long does TC have to make a move before the season is lost?

Every year at least one team usually goes on a big run and surprises everyone. Last year Dallas looked like they would miss the play in, then they got the 5 seed. We have time, but the move has to be perfect. At this point we are unlikely to move any wolf from last season. That means Randle is the key, and TC isn’t likely to get good value back for him if we are struggling (negotiating from a position of weakness.) I said in the preseason I didn’t want management to **** it up after a WCF year, and it looks pretty ***** right now.

Never ever bet against the Wolves in this regard. They'll always find a way no matter who's in office.

[Norseman79]

How long does TC have to make a move before the season is lost?

Every year at least one team usually goes on a big run and surprises everyone. Last year Dallas looked like they would miss the play in, then they got the 5 seed. We have time, but the move has to be perfect. At this point we are unlikely to move any wolf from last season. That means Randle is the key, and TC isn’t likely to get good value back for him if we are struggling (negotiating from a position of weakness.) I said in the preseason I didn’t want management to **** it up after a WCF year, and it looks pretty ***** right now.

I don't disagree with any of this. It's also why I really think if we want any chance at a run, we're going to have to do something unpopular and gamble on a bad contract paying off. That would mean somebody like Jordan Poole. If we don't want to make a run, then you look for young prospects, cap relief, or draft picks.

What I can say is that I can hardly watch these guys play basketball right now. There is no fun, there is no fire, there's no excitement. I don't care if they lose if they're playing hard and it's intense. There's been nothing but disinterest and lack of give a damn.

People may disagree, but starting point guard is a need and so is backup center. Finch needs to change his rotations. He's trying to play eight guys but only one point guard and one center. If you're going to have a short rotation, you need to at least have two point guards and two centers, the three forward positions can be interchangeable.

[winforlose]

How long does TC have to make a move before the season is lost?

Every year at least one team usually goes on a big run and surprises everyone. Last year Dallas looked like they would miss the play in, then they got the 5 seed. We have time, but the move has to be perfect. At this point we are unlikely to move any wolf from last season. That means Randle is the key, and TC isn’t likely to get good value back for him if we are struggling (negotiating from a position of weakness.) I said in the preseason I didn’t want management to **** it up after a WCF year, and it looks pretty ***** right now.

I don't disagree with any of this. It's also why I really think if we want any chance at a run, we're going to have to do something unpopular and gamble on a bad contract paying off. That would mean somebody like Jordan Poole. If we don't want to make a run, then you look for young prospects, cap relief, or draft picks.

What I can say is that I can hardly watch these guys play basketball right now. There is no fun, there is no fire, there's no excitement. I don't care if they lose if they're playing hard and it's intense. There's been nothing but disinterest and lack of give a damn.

People may disagree, but starting point guard is a need and so is backup center. Finch needs to change his rotations. He's trying to play eight guys but only one point guard and one center. If you're going to have a short rotation, you need to at least have two point guards and two centers, the three forward positions can be interchangeable.

You would like Dilly and Garza? We need them on the roster in order to play them.

[frankenwolf]

Every year at least one team usually goes on a big run and surprises everyone. Last year Dallas looked like they would miss the play in, then they got the 5 seed. We have time, but the move has to be perfect. At this point we are unlikely to move any wolf from last season. That means Randle is the key, and TC isn’t likely to get good value back for him if we are struggling (negotiating from a position of weakness.) I said in the preseason I didn’t want management to **** it up after a WCF year, and it looks pretty ***** right now.

I don't disagree with any of this. It's also why I really think if we want any chance at a run, we're going to have to do something unpopular and gamble on a bad contract paying off. That would mean somebody like Jordan Poole. If we don't want to make a run, then you look for young prospects, cap relief, or draft picks.

What I can say is that I can hardly watch these guys play basketball right now. There is no fun, there is no fire, there's no excitement. I don't care if they lose if they're playing hard and it's intense. There's been nothing but disinterest and lack of give a damn.

People may disagree, but starting point guard is a need and so is backup center. Finch needs to change his rotations. He's trying to play eight guys but only one point guard and one center. If you're going to have a short rotation, you need to at least have two point guards and two centers, the three forward positions can be interchangeable.

You would like Dilly and Garza? We need them on the roster in order to play them.

At this point, I think I would. I don't get to watch the games, but if the team has no desire, has a lack of direction, "Not any fun to watch" then turn the young ones loose. As far as I'm concerned, Randle is what Randle has always been, worthless for a playoff team. Does he have some good attributes that TC thought we needed? Yes, but it has come at the cost of harmony and desire. From all I'm hearing, this team is back to the early 2000's in attitude. I had hoped that Finch & Ant would keep things going the way they were, but it sounds not very happy right now, even after wins.

I will put this out there, the Wolves will win tonight.

[BlacJacMac]

I don't disagree with any of this. It's also why I really think if we want any chance at a run, we're going to have to do something unpopular and gamble on a bad contract paying off. That would mean somebody like Jordan Poole. If we don't want to make a run, then you look for young prospects, cap relief, or draft picks.

What I can say is that I can hardly watch these guys play basketball right now. There is no fun, there is no fire, there's no excitement. I don't care if they lose if they're playing hard and it's intense. There's been nothing but disinterest and lack of give a damn.

People may disagree, but starting point guard is a need and so is backup center. Finch needs to change his rotations. He's trying to play eight guys but only one point guard and one center. If you're going to have a short rotation, you need to at least have two point guards and two centers, the three forward positions can be interchangeable.

You would like Dilly and Garza? We need them on the roster in order to play them.

At this point, I think I would. I don't get to watch the games, but if the team has no desire, has a lack of direction, "Not any fun to watch" then turn the young ones loose. As far as I'm concerned, Randle is what Randle has always been, worthless for a playoff team. Does he have some good attributes that TC thought we needed? Yes, but it has come at the cost of harmony and desire. From all I'm hearing, this team is back to the early 2000's in attitude. I had hoped that Finch & Ant would keep things going the way they were, but it sounds not very happy right now, even after wins.

I will put this out there, the Wolves will win tonight.

I'll take it one step further. I personally guarantee that the Wolves will not lose tonight.

[Note30]

Even if it was legal the trade is terrible anyway, so I guess the technicalities are a bit moot.

I mean I would definitely want to know why you think that. This actually gives us a shot at contention.

Your trade hinges on Kawhi Leonard, who has a degenerative condition in his knee that is already preventing him from playing half a season let alone playoffs, and Dejounte Murray, who has had exactly 1 season in his entire career as an above average player.

This "shot" at contention you mention is the equivalent of betting your entire life savings on a roulette roll; technically possible to make you a winner but so statistically unlikely that only a fool would make that bet.

We already bet it on Gobert and trading away Towns. We would be giving up next to nothing and it wouldn't be worse than the outlook we already have.

Murray has had multiple above average years. Unless you count getting and AllStar bid the only way to show you are an above average player.

Yes. The entire bet would be on Kawhi, but if you think Randle or McDaniels would be a better bet than Kawhi then yeah by all means this is a bad trade. Especially considering Kawhi has two years left on his contract.

[BlacJacMac]

I mean I would definitely want to know why you think that. This actually gives us a shot at contention.

Your trade hinges on Kawhi Leonard, who has a degenerative condition in his knee that is already preventing him from playing half a season let alone playoffs, and Dejounte Murray, who has had exactly 1 season in his entire career as an above average player.

This "shot" at contention you mention is the equivalent of betting your entire life savings on a roulette roll; technically possible to make you a winner but so statistically unlikely that only a fool would make that bet.

We already bet it on Gobert and trading away Towns. We would be giving up next to nothing and it wouldn't be worse than the outlook we already have.

Murray has had multiple above average years. Unless you count getting and AllStar bid the only way to show you are an above average player.

Yes. The entire bet would be on Kawhi, but if you think Randle or McDaniels would be a better bet than Kawhi then yeah by all means this is a bad trade. Especially considering Kawhi has two years left on his contract.

I'd be fine with a straight Randle for Murray swap. We get better and save 3.5M. Its not my ideal trade, but I could roll with it.

I don't think there is any way we could trade for Kawhi unless we do a prior trade that brings us under the apron.

[Norseman79]

Every year at least one team usually goes on a big run and surprises everyone. Last year Dallas looked like they would miss the play in, then they got the 5 seed. We have time, but the move has to be perfect. At this point we are unlikely to move any wolf from last season. That means Randle is the key, and TC isn’t likely to get good value back for him if we are struggling (negotiating from a position of weakness.) I said in the preseason I didn’t want management to **** it up after a WCF year, and it looks pretty ***** right now.

I don't disagree with any of this. It's also why I really think if we want any chance at a run, we're going to have to do something unpopular and gamble on a bad contract paying off. That would mean somebody like Jordan Poole. If we don't want to make a run, then you look for young prospects, cap relief, or draft picks.

What I can say is that I can hardly watch these guys play basketball right now. There is no fun, there is no fire, there's no excitement. I don't care if they lose if they're playing hard and it's intense. There's been nothing but disinterest and lack of give a damn.

People may disagree, but starting point guard is a need and so is backup center. Finch needs to change his rotations. He's trying to play eight guys but only one point guard and one center. If you're going to have a short rotation, you need to at least have two point guards and two centers, the three forward positions can be interchangeable.

You would like Dilly and Garza? We need them on the roster in order to play them.

I think I'm saying they need to get a starting point guard and backup center via trade. In fact, I would be willing to include Dillingham to get back a starter. Due to trade limitations, it would likely need to be part of a second deal. Like say Randle for Murray, then Dillingham for a 1st. That would take care of starting point guard. As far as the center goes, two options, NAW or DD...get the best value back from one of them.

Finally, it's time to play the young hungry guys, Minott and Miller for sure... Need to know what's there before deciding what to do with Naz

[winforlose]

Your trade hinges on Kawhi Leonard, who has a degenerative condition in his knee that is already preventing him from playing half a season let alone playoffs, and Dejounte Murray, who has had exactly 1 season in his entire career as an above average player.

This "shot" at contention you mention is the equivalent of betting your entire life savings on a roulette roll; technically possible to make you a winner but so statistically unlikely that only a fool would make that bet.

We already bet it on Gobert and trading away Towns. We would be giving up next to nothing and it wouldn't be worse than the outlook we already have.

Murray has had multiple above average years. Unless you count getting and AllStar bid the only way to show you are an above average player.

Yes. The entire bet would be on Kawhi, but if you think Randle or McDaniels would be a better bet than Kawhi then yeah by all means this is a bad trade. Especially considering Kawhi has two years left on his contract.

I'd be fine with a straight Randle for Murray swap. We get better and save 3.5M. Its not my ideal trade, but I could roll with it.

I don't think there is any way we could trade for Kawhi unless we do a prior trade that brings us under the apron.

NOP won’t give us Murray for Randle. They paid a lot for DJM and they will want to recoup as much as possible.

[Norseman79]

We already bet it on Gobert and trading away Towns. We would be giving up next to nothing and it wouldn't be worse than the outlook we already have.

Murray has had multiple above average years. Unless you count getting and AllStar bid the only way to show you are an above average player.

Yes. The entire bet would be on Kawhi, but if you think Randle or McDaniels would be a better bet than Kawhi then yeah by all means this is a bad trade. Especially considering Kawhi has two years left on his contract.

I'd be fine with a straight Randle for Murray swap. We get better and save 3.5M. Its not my ideal trade, but I could roll with it.

I don't think there is any way we could trade for Kawhi unless we do a prior trade that brings us under the apron.

NOP won’t give us Murray for Randle. They paid a lot for DJM and they will want to recoup as much as possible.

Randle and Dillingham should do it but I'd want a protected 1 back

[winforlose]

I'd be fine with a straight Randle for Murray swap. We get better and save 3.5M. Its not my ideal trade, but I could roll with it.

I don't think there is any way we could trade for Kawhi unless we do a prior trade that brings us under the apron.

NOP won’t give us Murray for Randle. They paid a lot for DJM and they will want to recoup as much as possible.

Randle and Dillingham should do it but I'd want a protected 1 back

Ran it through spotrac, “ New Orleans is Hard-Capped & over the 1st Apron by $5,991,723”