Will Kevin Durant ever win a Championship as the best player on his team?

[bledredwine]

The Miami Heat went 2 for 4 with LeBron, Wade, and Bosh.

2x FMVP for LeBron

GSW goes 2 for 3 with KD, Steph, Klay

2x FMVP for KD

Only counts for LeBron though.

Exactly. It’s too funny. And if the Heat crushed everyone like they were anticipated to, would we speak of lebron the same way as Durant?
Nope, because those who hate Durant are Lebron fans and they're up set that KD prevented him from GMing more championships and even exposed Lebron in the process. Lebron cheated the system first and Durant followed. That's the blunt truth.

There was a desired to prop Lebron on a tier of his own and Durant shut that down.... in the finals at that. Jimmy Butler also showed that you could play on the same level in the finals. Regardless, the GM'ing of super teams is Lebron's specialty and he deserves at least as much hate as Durant gets in that regard.

Speaking of Miami Heatles,

2010 - 58 wins and the finals choke
2011 - 46 wins and finals win
2012 - 66 wins and finals win
2013 - 54 wins and slaughtered in finals

That is a failure, considering the expectations and remarkable amount of talent they assembled. At least Durant was a true ceiling raiser. And as we know, 2012 is nearly another loss (the Allen 3 Bosh rebound)

Realgm was talking about the possibility of the Big 3 going undefeated. That's how cheap it was at the time - no less cheap than Durant joining the 73 win Golden State, which everyone should know wasn't a 73 win team (couldn't even win the chip, Steph was never the same since he became hobbled, Rockets and Durant's OKC almost knocked GS out that year etc).

If you bring a gun to a knife fight it is a little rich imo to complain about someone returning to the fray with a bigger gun.

That is so well said- can’t really object to that regardless of the side one is on.

[bledredwine]

The Miami Heat went 2 for 4 with LeBron, Wade, and Bosh.

2x FMVP for LeBron

GSW goes 2 for 3 with KD, Steph, Klay

2x FMVP for KD

Only counts for LeBron though.

Exactly. It’s too funny. And if the Heat crushed everyone like they were anticipated to, would we speak of lebron the same way as Durant?
Nope, because those who hate Durant are Lebron fans and they're up set that KD prevented him from GMing more championships and even exposed Lebron in the process. Lebron cheated the system first and Durant followed. That's the blunt truth.

There was a desired to prop Lebron on a tier of his own and Durant shut that down.... in the finals at that. Jimmy Butler also showed that you could play on the same level in the finals. Regardless, the GM'ing of super teams is Lebron's specialty and he deserves at least as much hate as Durant gets in that regard.

Speaking of Miami Heatles,

2010 - 58 wins and the finals choke
2011 - 46 wins and finals win
2012 - 66 wins and finals win
2013 - 54 wins and slaughtered in finals

That is a failure, considering the expectations and remarkable amount of talent they assembled. At least Durant was a true ceiling raiser. And as we know, 2012 is nearly another loss (the Allen 3 Bosh rebound)

Realgm was talking about the possibility of the Big 3 going undefeated. That's how cheap it was at the time - no less cheap than Durant joining the 73 win Golden State, which everyone should know wasn't a 73 win team (couldn't even win the chip, Steph was never the same since he became hobbled, Rockets and Durant's OKC almost knocked GS out that year etc).

If you’re going to make an entire post littered with complete nonsense, the least you could do is get your years right.

If you’re going to quote several paragraphs and simply write “nonsense”, you should at least back it up with logic instead of a poor empty reply, which is nonsense to begin with. And a one year difference in one of my finals is not a big deal, so come up with some substance. GL and go for it- let’s see what you come up with aside from generalities and unbacked opinion.

[sashaturiaf]

Let's head back to 2011 and revisit the state of the NBA

The 2 best players in the East Lebron and Wade on the same team, another top 5-10 in the conference on the same team. Later all stars like Ray Allen in his late prime would join to be bench players. This team were stacked for the ages, expected to win 6 in a row. Lebron himself said it was going to be easy and they'd win 8!!

In reality they were a disappointment. 1 Bosh rebound and Ray Allen clutch 3 away from going 1/4

The KD warriors were also historically stacked on paper. But at least they played like it

[michaelm]

Except if you read this forum after the 2015 title win there were myriad posts including by some posters on a daily basis contending that GSW didn’t really win that litle which was influential on subsequent events, especially the ill advised attempt to win the regular season record.

Yes, but fans are stupid and say dumb things. This is known and fairly SOP.

Since we are discussing things on this forum I thought that what people said on this forum might be vaguely relevant.

It is also fairly clear, I might even go so far as to say a literal fact, that the players (unwisely imo) take notice of what fans say on social media, particularly KD obviously, but I would hazard a guess Draymond Green as well.

[Iwasawitness]

Simple as that. Nobody was even close to the Dubs with KD there

We've seen many superteams on paper crash and burn. That Warriors team was an unstoppable juggernaut that bombed all into submission through jumpshots

So we’re just ignoring Klay getting injured in 2019 too?

Stop pretending Klay wasn't a role player by then and barely a positive in any playoff game that mattered.

He was Joe Harris with a bigger role and fuzzy hair.

I'm not a big Klay Thompson guy but this is just another thing to add to the list of ridiculous things you've said on this site. Joe Harris was never a 3/D player or anywhere close to the player Thompson was. And not to mention, the guy was averaging 21 PPG on 46/40/90 splits. Oh and he made the all star team that year. Maybe in your deluded world view of this sport, that's a role player, but to us, it's not.

Except that once again I didn’t initiate anything. The actual starting point was someone pejoratively posting that GSW players had been trying to recruit KD all year.

Whenever LeBron made his final decision to leave the Cavs if I am to read between the lines as you claim to be able to do there had fairly obviously been prior discussion during the season or even before about getting together at the Heat who had cleared cap space, and you yourself have posted about LeBron trying to recruit Chris Bosh to join him. Again I had/have no problem with LeBron forming the Heatles, just the differing standards applied to KD by those of your ilk.

Durant fairly clearly made his eventual decision post the season including the play-offs, cf the Hamptons 5 etc.

But once again, you're going off an assumption that isn't based on anything. Yeah, of course Miami cleared up cap space... multiple teams did that season. It was expected to be a heavily stacked free agent class, a lot of teams were trying to get in on the action.

Now I won't deny that discussions about them teaming up one day happened. Hell, we have confirmation that it did in fact happen at the Olympics. But all evidence points to the fact that LeBron made every attempt to stick it out in Cleveland first. If you want to say that Bosh was of a different mindset, go ahead, I won't argue against it. But even if all of what you were saying in this regard was true... the simple fact of the matter is, LeBron didn't leave a team with a top five player on it to go play with the one that just beat him in the playoffs. Durant did. You refusing to acknowledge this big key difference is where the disconnect is here, and is why you will continue to be wrong.

[Iwasawitness]

If you’re going to quote several paragraphs and simply write “nonsense”, you should at least back it up with logic instead of a poor empty reply, which is nonsense to begin with. And a one year difference in one of my finals is not a big deal, so come up with some substance. GL and go for it- let’s see what you come up with aside from generalities and unbacked opinion.

Right, because that isn't what you do on a regular basis on this website, right?

But sure, I'll bite.

Exactly. It’s too funny. And if the Heat crushed everyone like they were anticipated to, would we speak of lebron the same way as Durant?
Nope, because those who hate Durant are Lebron fans and they're up set that KD prevented him from GMing more championships and even exposed Lebron in the process. Lebron cheated the system first and Durant followed. That's the blunt truth.

LeBron cheated the system? How? When? Where? All he did was join a team that had the cap space to sign him. Where did he cheat? He didn't even get his way in the end. He wanted Bosh to come to Cleveland. That didn't happen. If anything, LeBron failed on his original goal. Funny thing is, Durant didn't cheat the system either. The truth is, neither of them did. One was just cowardly enough to join the team that beat him and had a historic season, and his two championship wins came against vastly inferior teams. This is a key difference in why his titles will always hold significantly less weight than LeBron's.

There was a desired to prop Lebron on a tier of his own and Durant shut that down.... in the finals at that. Jimmy Butler also showed that you could play on the same level in the finals. Regardless, the GM'ing of super teams is Lebron's specialty and he deserves at least as much hate as Durant gets in that regard.

Durant didn't shut anything down at all. If anything, the opposite happened. People still claimed he wasn't on LeBron's level, he still got no where close to the praise LeBron was getting. Durant himself even said that it bothered him that people weren't claiming he was the top guy in the league, despite having two wins over the guy who held that crown.

And no, LeBron doesn't deserve that level of hate, nor is he ever going to receive that level of hate. People who aren't biased and can read between the lines can see why both are very different situations and why it's silly to compare them. They aren't comparable in the slightest. And not to mention, if it wasn't Miami, it would have been Chicago who won 60 games that season without him, or NY who got Amare. If there's anything he deserved hate for, it was for the stupid way he left.

Speaking of Miami Heatles,

2010 - 58 wins and the finals choke
2011 - 46 wins and finals win
2012 - 66 wins and finals win
2013 - 54 wins and slaughtered in finals

That is a failure, considering the expectations and remarkable amount of talent they assembled. At least Durant was a true ceiling raiser. And as we know, 2012 is nearly another loss (the Allen 3 Bosh rebound)

First off, LeBron is a far bigger ceiling raiser than Durant is and it's not up for discussion. This has got to be one of the worst takes I've ever read during my time on this site, and that says a lot.

Second, two titles in four years, especially when you were only favorites in two of them, isn't a failure by any stretch of the imagination. The fact of the matter is, in the two finals that they did lose, it was against better teams. How is that a failure? No wait let me guess... because LeBron stupidly said "not one, not two...". Oh man, I didn't realize that we now base a run entirely off of what someone says at what was ultimately the equivalent of a high school pep rally. News flash: the LeBron heat weren't unbeatable. They were flawed, they had weaknesses, and the big three of LeBron/Wade/Bosh didn't turn out to be as good as everyone thought. By the time Bosh actually had his role figured out, Wade was already declining due to injury. Circumstances did not play out the way they had intended.

Hell, you mentioned the two losses, let's talk about what those two teams were shall we?

First one: Had little to no depth, major chemistry problems, and had very poor fit. The big three did not understand their roles at all. And worst yet, they had a losing record against .500 teams, and only got to the finals due to injury to other teams and a favorable matchup against the Bulls.

Fourth one: Old team with Wade pretty much a shell of his former self at this point and their depth was far less effective. There's a reason they fell off by 12 wins that season.

In the two seasons where they had actual good depth and didn't have major injury issues, they went on to win a championship. I'm not saying they do as well in the other two seasons if these conditions don't exist, but I will say that if you're going to point these seasons out, it helps to explain why they happened to begin with. Context doesn't care about your feelings.

Realgm was talking about the possibility of the Big 3 going undefeated. That's how cheap it was at the time - no less cheap than Durant joining the 73 win Golden State, which everyone should know wasn't a 73 win team (couldn't even win the chip, Steph was never the same since he became hobbled, Rockets and Durant's OKC almost knocked GS out that year etc).

Bull ****. This is absolute bull **** and you know it.

How the hell is the big three forming no less cheap than Durant joining the 73 win Warriors? How? You tell me right now. Even from a fundamental standpoint of the game, a team that is already formed and has chemistry and is adding a major piece is always going to have a major advantage over the one putting almost an entirely new one together. A lot of people understood this at the time when the comparison was stupidly being thrown around then and they understand it now when it's still for some reason being made. But even then, Miami had to clear up massive amounts of cap space just to make it happen. They had to pretty much scratch most of the roster and fill out the rest of it around the big three with aging role players or just guys no one wants. All Golden State had to do was get rid of Barnes, Bogut and one other player while retaining most of their roster from last season and keeping their three all NBA players, and it all happened only because it was right at the time when the cap spike happened. You tell me how that isn't more cheap than what Miami did.

And yeah, fine, realgm might have talked about that being a possibility. But guess what? By the time the third year rolled around, talks of that were gone. People saw the flaws in going the big three approach at this point, they saw Miami get beaten and they understood why and how it could happen. What they expected isn't what actually happened. The simple fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter how cheap people thought it was at the time, it didn't play out that way, and that's what ultimately matters. We saw how the Durant Warriors played out... they were just as good as we expected them to be, if not more. But unlike the Miami Heat teams who actually went up against Finals teams that were on their level, Golden State never did such a thing, ultimately losing once because, surprise surprise, injuries rekted their chances in 2019. It's funny how that works.

TL;DR: Stop spouting nonsense and actually say something with substance and is based on reality next time.

[michaelm]

So we’re just ignoring Klay getting injured in 2019 too?

Stop pretending Klay wasn't a role player by then and barely a positive in any playoff game that mattered.

He was Joe Harris with a bigger role and fuzzy hair.

I'm not a big Klay Thompson guy but this is just another thing to add to the list of ridiculous things you've said on this site. Joe Harris was never a 3/D player or anywhere close to the player Thompson was. And not to mention, the guy was averaging 21 PPG on 46/40/90 splits. Maybe in your deluded world view of this sport, that's a role player, but to us, it's not.

Except that once again I didn’t initiate anything. The actual starting point was someone pejoratively posting that GSW players had been trying to recruit KD all year.

Whenever LeBron made his final decision to leave the Cavs if I am to read between the lines as you claim to be able to do there had fairly obviously been prior discussion during the season or even before about getting together at the Heat who had cleared cap space, and you yourself have posted about LeBron trying to recruit Chris Bosh to join him. Again I had/have no problem with LeBron forming the Heatles, just the differing standards applied to KD by those of your ilk.

Durant fairly clearly made his eventual decision post the season including the play-offs, cf the Hamptons 5 etc.

But once again, you're going off an assumption that isn't based on anything. Yeah, of course Miami cleared up cap space... multiple teams did that season. It was expected to be a heavily stacked free agent class, a lot of teams were trying to get in on the action.

Now I won't deny that discussions about them teaming up one day happened. Hell, we have confirmation that it did in fact happen at the Olympics. But all evidence points to the fact that LeBron made every attempt to stick it out in Cleveland first. If you want to say that Bosh was of a different mindset, go ahead, I won't argue against it. But even if all of what you were saying in this regard was true... the simple fact of the matter is, LeBron didn't leave a team with a top five player on it to go play with the one that just beat him in the playoffs. Durant did. You refusing to acknowledge this big key difference is where the disconnect is here, and is why you will continue to be wrong.

As I tried to put it succinctly, LeBron took a gun to a knife fight and KD/GSW came with a bigger gun later on.

LeBron joined up with a top 5 player three times, and perhaps with a top 5 and a top 10 player the first time at the Heat. I had some doubts about the mechanism of the AD to the Lakers thing, but no problem with him making whatever choice was best for him/he wished to make as a Free Agent. I see no difference in intent at all compared with KD, particularly in regard to the Heatles as others have pointed out, and if Bosh wasn’t as good a fit as LeBron had hoped or Wade was injury plagued that was “literally” as you might put it after the fact. The difference was that a well constructed team had been placed around the top 5 player KD joined and that team played team basketball which KD did as well in 2017 at least which is what he actually said he was joining GSW to do, perhaps being fatigued by more than a few years playing dual iso next to Russell Westbrook.

And a fierce rivalry between OkC (prior to the KD move at least) or KD and GSW is an invention of you guys. And sure after missing a year with a career threatening Jones fracture he was obliged to start from scratch somewhere else while LeBron did nothing of the sort.

You have conceded my point on the particular issue involved in any case, which concerned one of your fellow partisans hypocritically complaining about efforts by GSW players to recruit KD during the preceding season. And the strange argument you repeat about LeBron having carte blanche as opposed to others because he at one stage would have preferred to stay with the Cavs is the same arrant nonsense it was previously as other posters have pointed out.

[Iwasawitness]

Stop pretending Klay wasn't a role player by then and barely a positive in any playoff game that mattered.

He was Joe Harris with a bigger role and fuzzy hair.

I'm not a big Klay Thompson guy but this is just another thing to add to the list of ridiculous things you've said on this site. Joe Harris was never a 3/D player or anywhere close to the player Thompson was. And not to mention, the guy was averaging 21 PPG on 46/40/90 splits. Maybe in your deluded world view of this sport, that's a role player, but to us, it's not.

Except that once again I didn’t initiate anything. The actual starting point was someone pejoratively posting that GSW players had been trying to recruit KD all year.

Whenever LeBron made his final decision to leave the Cavs if I am to read between the lines as you claim to be able to do there had fairly obviously been prior discussion during the season or even before about getting together at the Heat who had cleared cap space, and you yourself have posted about LeBron trying to recruit Chris Bosh to join him. Again I had/have no problem with LeBron forming the Heatles, just the differing standards applied to KD by those of your ilk.

Durant fairly clearly made his eventual decision post the season including the play-offs, cf the Hamptons 5 etc.

But once again, you're going off an assumption that isn't based on anything. Yeah, of course Miami cleared up cap space... multiple teams did that season. It was expected to be a heavily stacked free agent class, a lot of teams were trying to get in on the action.

Now I won't deny that discussions about them teaming up one day happened. Hell, we have confirmation that it did in fact happen at the Olympics. But all evidence points to the fact that LeBron made every attempt to stick it out in Cleveland first. If you want to say that Bosh was of a different mindset, go ahead, I won't argue against it. But even if all of what you were saying in this regard was true... the simple fact of the matter is, LeBron didn't leave a team with a top five player on it to go play with the one that just beat him in the playoffs. Durant did. You refusing to acknowledge this big key difference is where the disconnect is here, and is why you will continue to be wrong.

As I tried to put it succinctly, LeBron took a gun to a knife fight and KD/GSW came with a bigger gun later on.

LeBron joined up with a top 5 player three times, and perhaps with a top 5 and a top 10 player the first time at the Heat I had some doubts about the mechanism of the AD thing, but no problem with him making whatever choice was best for him/he wished to make as a Free Agent. I see no difference in intent at all compared with KD, particularly in regard to the Heatles as others have pointed out, and if Bosh wasn’t as good a fit as LeBron had hoped or Wade was injury plagued that was “literally” as you might put it after the fact. The difference was that a well constructed team had been placed around the top 5 player KD joined and that team played team basketball which KD did as well in 2017 at least which is what he actually said he was joining GSW to do, perhaps being fatigued by more than a few years playing dual iso next to Russell Westbrook.

And a fierce rivalry between OkC (prior to the KD move at least) or KD and GSW is an invention of you guys. And sure after missing a year with a career threatening Jones fracture he was obliged to start from scratch somewhere else while LeBron did nothing of the sort.

You have conceded my point on the particular issue involved in any case, which concerned one of your fellow partisans hypocritically complaining about efforts by GSW players to recruit KD during the preceding season. And the strange argument you repeat about LeBron having carte blsnche as opposed to others because he at one stage would have preferred to stay with the Cavs is the same arrant nonsense it was previously as other posters have pointed out.

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

[sashaturiaf]

I'm not a big Klay Thompson guy but this is just another thing to add to the list of ridiculous things you've said on this site. Joe Harris was never a 3/D player or anywhere close to the player Thompson was. And not to mention, the guy was averaging 21 PPG on 46/40/90 splits. Maybe in your deluded world view of this sport, that's a role player, but to us, it's not.



But once again, you're going off an assumption that isn't based on anything. Yeah, of course Miami cleared up cap space... multiple teams did that season. It was expected to be a heavily stacked free agent class, a lot of teams were trying to get in on the action.

Now I won't deny that discussions about them teaming up one day happened. Hell, we have confirmation that it did in fact happen at the Olympics. But all evidence points to the fact that LeBron made every attempt to stick it out in Cleveland first. If you want to say that Bosh was of a different mindset, go ahead, I won't argue against it. But even if all of what you were saying in this regard was true... the simple fact of the matter is, LeBron didn't leave a team with a top five player on it to go play with the one that just beat him in the playoffs. Durant did. You refusing to acknowledge this big key difference is where the disconnect is here, and is why you will continue to be wrong.

As I tried to put it succinctly, LeBron took a gun to a knife fight and KD/GSW came with a bigger gun later on.

LeBron joined up with a top 5 player three times, and perhaps with a top 5 and a top 10 player the first time at the Heat I had some doubts about the mechanism of the AD thing, but no problem with him making whatever choice was best for him/he wished to make as a Free Agent. I see no difference in intent at all compared with KD, particularly in regard to the Heatles as others have pointed out, and if Bosh wasn’t as good a fit as LeBron had hoped or Wade was injury plagued that was “literally” as you might put it after the fact. The difference was that a well constructed team had been placed around the top 5 player KD joined and that team played team basketball which KD did as well in 2017 at least which is what he actually said he was joining GSW to do, perhaps being fatigued by more than a few years playing dual iso next to Russell Westbrook.

And a fierce rivalry between OkC (prior to the KD move at least) or KD and GSW is an invention of you guys. And sure after missing a year with a career threatening Jones fracture he was obliged to start from scratch somewhere else while LeBron did nothing of the sort.

You have conceded my point on the particular issue involved in any case, which concerned one of your fellow partisans hypocritically complaining about efforts by GSW players to recruit KD during the preceding season. And the strange argument you repeat about LeBron having carte blsnche as opposed to others because he at one stage would have preferred to stay with the Cavs is the same arrant nonsense it was previously as other posters have pointed out.

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

The worst part is 2/3 times Lebron jumped ship to stack a deck he teamed up with someone arguably better than him

- Wade was in his absolute prime and already had a ring while Lebrons greatest achievement was getting swept by Spurs
- AD was a 2 way monster in his absolute prime while Lebron was coming off missing the playoffs with a young talented Laker roster around him

Face facts. No amount of PR can wash away and erase the truth

[NBA_is_cringe]

The worst part is 2/3 times Lebron jumped ship to stack a deck he teamed up with someone arguably better than him

- Wade was in his absolute prime and already had a ring while Lebrons greatest achievement was getting swept by Spurs
- AD was a 2 way monster in his absolute prime while Lebron was coming off missing the playoffs with a young talented Laker roster around him

Face facts

dwayne wade is better than lebron? AD? yeah that's a good point. that's a REALLY good point.

[michaelm]

I'm not a big Klay Thompson guy but this is just another thing to add to the list of ridiculous things you've said on this site. Joe Harris was never a 3/D player or anywhere close to the player Thompson was. And not to mention, the guy was averaging 21 PPG on 46/40/90 splits. Maybe in your deluded world view of this sport, that's a role player, but to us, it's not.



But once again, you're going off an assumption that isn't based on anything. Yeah, of course Miami cleared up cap space... multiple teams did that season. It was expected to be a heavily stacked free agent class, a lot of teams were trying to get in on the action.

Now I won't deny that discussions about them teaming up one day happened. Hell, we have confirmation that it did in fact happen at the Olympics. But all evidence points to the fact that LeBron made every attempt to stick it out in Cleveland first. If you want to say that Bosh was of a different mindset, go ahead, I won't argue against it. But even if all of what you were saying in this regard was true... the simple fact of the matter is, LeBron didn't leave a team with a top five player on it to go play with the one that just beat him in the playoffs. Durant did. You refusing to acknowledge this big key difference is where the disconnect is here, and is why you will continue to be wrong.

As I tried to put it succinctly, LeBron took a gun to a knife fight and KD/GSW came with a bigger gun later on.

LeBron joined up with a top 5 player three times, and perhaps with a top 5 and a top 10 player the first time at the Heat I had some doubts about the mechanism of the AD thing, but no problem with him making whatever choice was best for him/he wished to make as a Free Agent. I see no difference in intent at all compared with KD, particularly in regard to the Heatles as others have pointed out, and if Bosh wasn’t as good a fit as LeBron had hoped or Wade was injury plagued that was “literally” as you might put it after the fact. The difference was that a well constructed team had been placed around the top 5 player KD joined and that team played team basketball which KD did as well in 2017 at least which is what he actually said he was joining GSW to do, perhaps being fatigued by more than a few years playing dual iso next to Russell Westbrook.

And a fierce rivalry between OkC (prior to the KD move at least) or KD and GSW is an invention of you guys. And sure after missing a year with a career threatening Jones fracture he was obliged to start from scratch somewhere else while LeBron did nothing of the sort.

You have conceded my point on the particular issue involved in any case, which concerned one of your fellow partisans hypocritically complaining about efforts by GSW players to recruit KD during the preceding season. And the strange argument you repeat about LeBron having carte blsnche as opposed to others because he at one stage would have preferred to stay with the Cavs is the same arrant nonsense it was previously as other posters have pointed out.

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

How convenient for you. So Wade and AD weren’t top 5 players ?. I felt free to call Kyrie Irving a top 5 player which is a little more arguable because you had implied KD left a top 5 player behind when he didn’t re-sign with OKC. Who was that pray tell ?. Kyrie certainly made a significant contribution to the 2016 title win, not negligible even in comparison to Lebron's. Russell Westbrook until this year had never played as well or been as clutch, although he has been playing differently this year and I would actually be more than happy m see him win a title next to the great Jokic. OKC certainly couldn’t be bothered keeping a future perennial top 5 player who had already been 6th MOTY after OKC lost to the Heatles. And I hardly think it was coincidence that LeBron chose to return to the Cavs when Kyrie was an up and coming star and the Cavs had another number 1 draft pick he could trade for a player of his choice. Again, if Kevin Love wasn’t quite who LeBron thought he was that was LeBron’s problem.

The 2016 Cavs team was a very good team and the 2017 team might have been better, and Kyrie was part of that. And no one including the bookmakers gave GSW much of a chance prior to the 2014-15 season against the Cavs who were heavily favoured, which quite likely correlates with what LeBron thought had been put together.

As I have been saying if you bring a gun to a knife fight not only are the future consequences on you but also beyond your control.

And speaking of things we both know the meaning of, more argumentum ad hominem from you.

[michaelm]

If you’re going to quote several paragraphs and simply write “nonsense”, you should at least back it up with logic instead of a poor empty reply, which is nonsense to begin with. And a one year difference in one of my finals is not a big deal, so come up with some substance. GL and go for it- let’s see what you come up with aside from generalities and unbacked opinion.

Right, because that isn't what you do on a regular basis on this website, right?

But sure, I'll bite.

Exactly. It’s too funny. And if the Heat crushed everyone like they were anticipated to, would we speak of lebron the same way as Durant?
Nope, because those who hate Durant are Lebron fans and they're up set that KD prevented him from GMing more championships and even exposed Lebron in the process. Lebron cheated the system first and Durant followed. That's the blunt truth.

LeBron cheated the system? How? When? Where? All he did was join a team that had the cap space to sign him. Where did he cheat? He didn't even get his way in the end. He wanted Bosh to come to Cleveland. That didn't happen. If anything, LeBron failed on his original goal. Funny thing is, Durant didn't cheat the system either. The truth is, neither of them did. One was just cowardly enough to join the team that beat him and had a historic season, and his two championship wins came against vastly inferior teams. This is a key difference in why his titles will always hold significantly less weight than LeBron's.

There was a desired to prop Lebron on a tier of his own and Durant shut that down.... in the finals at that. Jimmy Butler also showed that you could play on the same level in the finals. Regardless, the GM'ing of super teams is Lebron's specialty and he deserves at least as much hate as Durant gets in that regard.

Durant didn't shut anything down at all. If anything, the opposite happened. People still claimed he wasn't on LeBron's level, he still got no where close to the praise LeBron was getting. Durant himself even said that it bothered him that people weren't claiming he was the top guy in the league, despite having two wins over the guy who held that crown.

And no, LeBron doesn't deserve that level of hate, nor is he ever going to receive that level of hate. People who aren't biased and can read between the lines can see why both are very different situations and why it's silly to compare them. They aren't comparable in the slightest. And not to mention, if it wasn't Miami, it would have been Chicago who won 60 games that season without him, or NY who got Amare. If there's anything he deserved hate for, it was for the stupid way he left.

Speaking of Miami Heatles,

2010 - 58 wins and the finals choke
2011 - 46 wins and finals win
2012 - 66 wins and finals win
2013 - 54 wins and slaughtered in finals

That is a failure, considering the expectations and remarkable amount of talent they assembled. At least Durant was a true ceiling raiser. And as we know, 2012 is nearly another loss (the Allen 3 Bosh rebound)

First off, LeBron is a far bigger ceiling raiser than Durant is and it's not up for discussion. This has got to be one of the worst takes I've ever read during my time on this site, and that says a lot.

Second, two titles in four years, especially when you were only favorites in two of them, isn't a failure by any stretch of the imagination. The fact of the matter is, in the two finals that they did lose, it was against better teams. How is that a failure? No wait let me guess... because LeBron stupidly said "not one, not two...". Oh man, I didn't realize that we now base a run entirely off of what someone says at what was ultimately the equivalent of a high school pep rally. News flash: the LeBron heat weren't unbeatable. They were flawed, they had weaknesses, and the big three of LeBron/Wade/Bosh didn't turn out to be as good as everyone thought. By the time Bosh actually had his role figured out, Wade was already declining due to injury. Circumstances did not play out the way they had intended.

Hell, you mentioned the two losses, let's talk about what those two teams were shall we?

First one: Had little to no depth, major chemistry problems, and had very poor fit. The big three did not understand their roles at all. And worst yet, they had a losing record against .500 teams, and only got to the finals due to injury to other teams and a favorable matchup against the Bulls.

Fourth one: Old team with Wade pretty much a shell of his former self at this point and their depth was far less effective. There's a reason they fell off by 12 wins that season.

In the two seasons where they had actual good depth and didn't have major injury issues, they went on to win a championship. I'm not saying they do as well in the other two seasons if these conditions don't exist, but I will say that if you're going to point these seasons out, it helps to explain why they happened to begin with. Context doesn't care about your feelings.

Realgm was talking about the possibility of the Big 3 going undefeated. That's how cheap it was at the time - no less cheap than Durant joining the 73 win Golden State, which everyone should know wasn't a 73 win team (couldn't even win the chip, Steph was never the same since he became hobbled, Rockets and Durant's OKC almost knocked GS out that year etc).

Bull ****. This is absolute bull **** and you know it.

How the hell is the big three forming no less cheap than Durant joining the 73 win Warriors? How? You tell me right now. Even from a fundamental standpoint of the game, a team that is already formed and has chemistry and is adding a major piece is always going to have a major advantage over the one putting almost an entirely new one together. A lot of people understood this at the time when the comparison was stupidly being thrown around then and they understand it now when it's still for some reason being made. But even then, Miami had to clear up massive amounts of cap space just to make it happen. They had to pretty much scratch most of the roster and fill out the rest of it around the big three with aging role players or just guys no one wants. All Golden State had to do was get rid of Barnes, Bogut and one other player while retaining most of their roster from last season and keeping their three all NBA players, and it all happened only because it was right at the time when the cap spike happened. You tell me how that isn't more cheap than what Miami did.

And yeah, fine, realgm might have talked about that being a possibility. But guess what? By the time the third year rolled around, talks of that were gone. People saw the flaws in going the big three approach at this point, they saw Miami get beaten and they understood why and how it could happen. What they expected isn't what actually happened. The simple fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter how cheap people thought it was at the time, it didn't play out that way, and that's what ultimately matters. We saw how the Durant Warriors played out... they were just as good as we expected them to be, if not more. But unlike the Miami Heat teams who actually went up against Finals teams that were on their level, Golden State never did such a thing, ultimately losing once because, surprise surprise, injuries rekted their chances in 2019. It's funny how that works.

TL;DR: Stop spouting nonsense and actually say something with substance and is based on reality next time.

So KD isn't a great ceiling raiser even though he made GSW unbeatable by LeBron's teams, and that is according to you yourself, and the 2017 team after his addition is well in the discussion of the greatest teams ever. You will have to tell me which of Lebron's teams approaches that level.

You could perhaps take your own advice and acquaint yourself with reality. GSW drafted Curry, he developed there and they backed their judgement when he was young and injury prone and signed him for what eventually became an incredibly cheap contract which at the time many thought was a major misjudgement. He was the guy KD wanted to play next to, and his contract a significant part of the reason GSW had the cap space. Barnes also wanted KD money to stay, and had already knocked back an offer of the highest salary on the team early in the 2015-2016 season. Bogut was on a $12 million per year contract, significant money back then. And how unfair in the team sport of basketball to actually develop all stars next to Curry including one who was a second round pick. Which gets back to the larger problem for you, you are a fan of an individual player in a team sport. As I have said building a team and playing together as a team is actually not cheating in the team sport of basketball.

[tsherkin]

I think at some point this thread is done. KD isn't going to be the best guy on a team again unless something goes direly bad for him at this stage of his career. He isn't what he used to be due to age and the injury, which is quite normal at this point in his career. So the initial question can be pretty safely answered "no."

But that doesn't mean he wasn't incredible in his day, and it doesn't mean he isn't still quite impressive, all told.

[Iwasawitness]

As I tried to put it succinctly, LeBron took a gun to a knife fight and KD/GSW came with a bigger gun later on.

LeBron joined up with a top 5 player three times, and perhaps with a top 5 and a top 10 player the first time at the Heat I had some doubts about the mechanism of the AD thing, but no problem with him making whatever choice was best for him/he wished to make as a Free Agent. I see no difference in intent at all compared with KD, particularly in regard to the Heatles as others have pointed out, and if Bosh wasn’t as good a fit as LeBron had hoped or Wade was injury plagued that was “literally” as you might put it after the fact. The difference was that a well constructed team had been placed around the top 5 player KD joined and that team played team basketball which KD did as well in 2017 at least which is what he actually said he was joining GSW to do, perhaps being fatigued by more than a few years playing dual iso next to Russell Westbrook.

And a fierce rivalry between OkC (prior to the KD move at least) or KD and GSW is an invention of you guys. And sure after missing a year with a career threatening Jones fracture he was obliged to start from scratch somewhere else while LeBron did nothing of the sort.

You have conceded my point on the particular issue involved in any case, which concerned one of your fellow partisans hypocritically complaining about efforts by GSW players to recruit KD during the preceding season. And the strange argument you repeat about LeBron having carte blsnche as opposed to others because he at one stage would have preferred to stay with the Cavs is the same arrant nonsense it was previously as other posters have pointed out.

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

The worst part is 2/3 times Lebron jumped ship to stack a deck he teamed up with someone arguably better than him

- Wade was in his absolute prime and already had a ring while Lebrons greatest achievement was getting swept by Spurs
- AD was a 2 way monster in his absolute prime while Lebron was coming off missing the playoffs with a young talented Laker roster around him

Face facts. No amount of PR can wash away and erase the truth

Is this why Wade himself told LeBron this was his team now and that he needed to be the one to lead it, not him? There was no argument for Wade being superior to LeBron at that point. LeBron was very clearly the best player in the league. AD I'll give you as a possibility, only problem is that doesn't apply to this, since AD was traded there.

Also, clear rule of thumb on when not to take a poster seriously: When they still claim LeBron stacked the deck even then he didn't.

[Iwasawitness]

As I tried to put it succinctly, LeBron took a gun to a knife fight and KD/GSW came with a bigger gun later on.

LeBron joined up with a top 5 player three times, and perhaps with a top 5 and a top 10 player the first time at the Heat I had some doubts about the mechanism of the AD thing, but no problem with him making whatever choice was best for him/he wished to make as a Free Agent. I see no difference in intent at all compared with KD, particularly in regard to the Heatles as others have pointed out, and if Bosh wasn’t as good a fit as LeBron had hoped or Wade was injury plagued that was “literally” as you might put it after the fact. The difference was that a well constructed team had been placed around the top 5 player KD joined and that team played team basketball which KD did as well in 2017 at least which is what he actually said he was joining GSW to do, perhaps being fatigued by more than a few years playing dual iso next to Russell Westbrook.

And a fierce rivalry between OkC (prior to the KD move at least) or KD and GSW is an invention of you guys. And sure after missing a year with a career threatening Jones fracture he was obliged to start from scratch somewhere else while LeBron did nothing of the sort.

You have conceded my point on the particular issue involved in any case, which concerned one of your fellow partisans hypocritically complaining about efforts by GSW players to recruit KD during the preceding season. And the strange argument you repeat about LeBron having carte blsnche as opposed to others because he at one stage would have preferred to stay with the Cavs is the same arrant nonsense it was previously as other posters have pointed out.

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

How convenient for you. So Wade and AD weren’t top 5 players ?. I felt free to call Kyrie Irving a top 5 player which is a little more arguable because you had implied KD left a top 5 player behind when he didn’t re-sign with OKC. Who was that pray tell ?. Kyrie certainly made a significant contribution to the 2016 title win, not negligible even in comparison to Lebron's. Russell Westbrook until this year had never played as well or been as clutch, although he has been playing differently this year and I would actually be more than happy m see him win a title next to the great Jokic. OKC certainly couldn’t be bothered keeping a future perennial top 5 player who had already been 6th MOTY after OKC lost to the Heatles. And I hardly think it was coincidence that LeBron chose to return to the Cavs when Kyrie was an up and coming star and the Cavs had another number 1 draft pick he could trade for a player of his choice. Again, if Kevin Love wasn’t quite who LeBron thought he was that was LeBron’s problem.

The 2016 Cavs team was a very good team and the 2017 team might have been better, and Kyrie was part of that. And no one including the bookmakers gave GSW much of a chance prior to the 2014-15 season against the Cavs who were heavily favoured, which quite likely correlates with what LeBron thought had been put together.

As I have been saying if you bring a gun to a knife fight not only are the future consequences on you but also beyond your control.

And speaking of things we both know the meaning of, more argumentum ad hominem from you.

Wade and AD yes, Kyrie Irving absolutely not. Hell, he didn't even have an argument for top ten at that point. And what argument does Westbrook have? How about we start with the fact that he, unlike Irving, made first team all NBA the season Durant left? Again, when you choose to just deliberately make false statements like this for your own agenda sake, I no longer have any reason to pay attention to your posts. It's very clear what you're arguing is agenda driven and you'll say just about anything at this point. Don't expect replies from me, I've wasted enough time on your posts.

[Iwasawitness]

Let's head back to 2011 and revisit the state of the NBA

The 2 best players in the East Lebron and Wade on the same team, another top 5-10 in the conference on the same team. Later all stars like Ray Allen in his late prime would join to be bench players. This team were stacked for the ages, expected to win 6 in a row. Lebron himself said it was going to be easy and they'd win 8!!

In reality they were a disappointment. 1 Bosh rebound and Ray Allen clutch 3 away from going 1/4

The KD warriors were also historically stacked on paper. But at least they played like it

[The4thHorseman]

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

How convenient for you. So Wade and AD weren’t top 5 players ?. I felt free to call Kyrie Irving a top 5 player which is a little more arguable because you had implied KD left a top 5 player behind when he didn’t re-sign with OKC. Who was that pray tell ?. Kyrie certainly made a significant contribution to the 2016 title win, not negligible even in comparison to Lebron's. Russell Westbrook until this year had never played as well or been as clutch, although he has been playing differently this year and I would actually be more than happy m see him win a title next to the great Jokic. OKC certainly couldn’t be bothered keeping a future perennial top 5 player who had already been 6th MOTY after OKC lost to the Heatles. And I hardly think it was coincidence that LeBron chose to return to the Cavs when Kyrie was an up and coming star and the Cavs had another number 1 draft pick he could trade for a player of his choice. Again, if Kevin Love wasn’t quite who LeBron thought he was that was LeBron’s problem.

The 2016 Cavs team was a very good team and the 2017 team might have been better, and Kyrie was part of that. And no one including the bookmakers gave GSW much of a chance prior to the 2014-15 season against the Cavs who were heavily favoured, which quite likely correlates with what LeBron thought had been put together.

As I have been saying if you bring a gun to a knife fight not only are the future consequences on you but also beyond your control.

And speaking of things we both know the meaning of, more argumentum ad hominem from you.

Wade and AD yes, Kyrie Irving absolutely not. Hell, he didn't even have an argument for top ten at that point. Again, when you choose to just deliberately make false statements like this for your own agenda sake, I no longer have any reason to pay attention to your posts. It's very clear what you're arguing is agenda driven and you'll say just about anything at this point. Don't expect replies from me, I've wasted enough time on your posts.

It's almost as if there's like a half dozen or so who are getting paid to make up outlandish stuff just to keep posters on the site and engaged in debate. If not, then they're spending a hell of a lot of time trolling for free.

[michaelm]

How convenient for you. So Wade and AD weren’t top 5 players ?. I felt free to call Kyrie Irving a top 5 player which is a little more arguable because you had implied KD left a top 5 player behind when he didn’t re-sign with OKC. Who was that pray tell ?. Kyrie certainly made a significant contribution to the 2016 title win, not negligible even in comparison to Lebron's. Russell Westbrook until this year had never played as well or been as clutch, although he has been playing differently this year and I would actually be more than happy m see him win a title next to the great Jokic. OKC certainly couldn’t be bothered keeping a future perennial top 5 player who had already been 6th MOTY after OKC lost to the Heatles. And I hardly think it was coincidence that LeBron chose to return to the Cavs when Kyrie was an up and coming star and the Cavs had another number 1 draft pick he could trade for a player of his choice. Again, if Kevin Love wasn’t quite who LeBron thought he was that was LeBron’s problem.

The 2016 Cavs team was a very good team and the 2017 team might have been better, and Kyrie was part of that. And no one including the bookmakers gave GSW much of a chance prior to the 2014-15 season against the Cavs who were heavily favoured, which quite likely correlates with what LeBron thought had been put together.

As I have been saying if you bring a gun to a knife fight not only are the future consequences on you but also beyond your control.

And speaking of things we both know the meaning of, more argumentum ad hominem from you.

Wade and AD yes, Kyrie Irving absolutely not. Hell, he didn't even have an argument for top ten at that point. Again, when you choose to just deliberately make false statements like this for your own agenda sake, I no longer have any reason to pay attention to your posts. It's very clear what you're arguing is agenda driven and you'll say just about anything at this point. Don't expect replies from me, I've wasted enough time on your posts.

It's almost as if there's like a half dozen or so who are getting paid to make up outlandish stuff just to keep posters on the site and engaged in debate. If not, then they're spending a hell of a lot of time trolling for free.

So this thread was started by a Durant fan was it ?.

It is a very clear agenda/troll thread. The OP knows Durant can’t be the main man in a title win now at age 36 with many miles on the clock including the Achilles’ tendon rupture, but nor could Michael Jordan and nor could LeBron James, and I somehow doubt James will in future. He (it is always a he, possibly a teenage he in this case) is also dismissing by implication KD’s contribution to 2 title wins in which he was FMVP, a contribution which I recognise despite being primarily a Curry/GSW fan and 5 years having passed since KD was a GSW player. I will however continue to enjoy the memory of the 2017 version of the team I support being possibly the best team ever, a distinction no team of LeBron’s will ever enjoy, and hardly because of any lack of effort on the team stacking front by LeBron himself.

This might be hard for you to understand, but you are the one who is agreeing with a troll and hence assisting/participating in his trolling, yet you are calling others trolls. And again as always it is not only other people who are biased, and repetition or increased vehemence does not magically transform your opinions into facts.

[michaelm]

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

How convenient for you. So Wade and AD weren’t top 5 players ?. I felt free to call Kyrie Irving a top 5 player which is a little more arguable because you had implied KD left a top 5 player behind when he didn’t re-sign with OKC. Who was that pray tell ?. Kyrie certainly made a significant contribution to the 2016 title win, not negligible even in comparisonu to Lebron's. Russell Westbrook until this year had never played as well or been as clutch, although he has been playing differently this year and I would actually be more than happy m see him win a title next to the great Jokic. OKC certainly couldn’t be bothered keeping a future perennial top 5 player who had already been 6th MOTY after OKC lost to the Heatles. And I hardly think it was coincidence that LeBron chose to return to the Cavs when Kyrie was an up and coming star and the Cavs had another number 1 draft pick he could trade for a player of his choice. Again, if Kevin Love wasn’t quite who LeBron thought he was that was LeBron’s problem.

The 2016 Cavs team was a very good team and the 2017 team might have been better, and Kyrie was part of that. And no one including the bookmakers gave GSW much of a chance prior to the 2014-15 season against the Cavs who were heavily favoured, which quite likely correlates with what LeBron thought had been put together.

As I have been saying if you bring a gun to a knife fight not only are the future consequences on you but also beyond your control.

And speaking of things we both know the meaning of, more argumentum ad hominem from you.

Wade and AD yes, Kyrie Irving absolutely not. Hell, he didn't even have an argument for top ten at that point. And what argument does Westbrook have? How about we start with the fact that he, unlike Irving, made first team all NBA the season Durant left? Again, when you choose to just deliberately make false statements like this for your own agenda sake, I no longer have any reason to pay attention to your posts. It's very clear what you're arguing is agenda driven and you'll say just about anything at this point. Don't expect replies from me, I've wasted enough time on your posts.

OK who was the top 5 player whom KD left behind at OKC as you posted then ?. And again you are actually agreeing that LeBron joined a top 5 player twice, the first time with another franchise player in Chris Bosh in tow, with Wade already wearing a ring won without LeBron, coincidentally exactly the same number of rings Curry had when KD joined GSW.

So all the above is negated because LeBron “only” joined a top 10 player in Kyrie, a number 1 draft pick already hailed as a franchise player for the Cavs, Rookie of the Year, multiple all star without LeBron, World Cup MVP, USA male basketballer of the year, MVP of an all star game (the latter of less significance I admit) and considered a budding superstar, and traded a number 1 draft pick the Cavs just happened to have for another franchise player in Kevin Love. Why does he always make things so difficult for himself ?.

[michaelm]

I’m sorry but I stopped reading the moment you said he joined up with a top five player three times. At this point it’s become clear to me you aren’t trying to have a serious conversation here and are just going to spout whatever nonsense you can muster in hopes of… I don’t even know at this point. Either way, I have no reason to take anyone who can’t see the difference seriously. It can’t be more painfully obvious, and now you’re just resorting to outright false claims. Hard pass on my end.

How convenient for you. So Wade and AD weren’t top 5 players ?. I felt free to call Kyrie Irving a top 5 player which is a little more arguable because you had implied KD left a top 5 player behind when he didn’t re-sign with OKC. Who was that pray tell ?. Kyrie certainly made a significant contribution to the 2016 title win, not negligible even in comparison to Lebron's. Russell Westbrook until this year had never played as well or been as clutch, although he has been playing differently this year and I would actually be more than happy m see him win a title next to the great Jokic. OKC certainly couldn’t be bothered keeping a future perennial top 5 player who had already been 6th MOTY after OKC lost to the Heatles. And I hardly think it was coincidence that LeBron chose to return to the Cavs when Kyrie was an up and coming star and the Cavs had another number 1 draft pick he could trade for a player of his choice. Again, if Kevin Love wasn’t quite who LeBron thought he was that was LeBron’s problem.

The 2016 Cavs team was a very good team and the 2017 team might have been better, and Kyrie was part of that. And no one including the bookmakers gave GSW much of a chance prior to the 2014-15 season against the Cavs who were heavily favoured, which quite likely correlates with what LeBron thought had been put together.

As I have been saying if you bring a gun to a knife fight not only are the future consequences on you but also beyond your control.

And speaking of things we both know the meaning of, more argumentum ad hominem from you.

Wade and AD yes, Kyrie Irving absolutely not. Hell, he didn't even have an argument for top ten at that point. And what argument does Westbrook have? How about we start with the fact that he, unlike Irving, made first team all NBA the season Durant left? Again, when you choose to just deliberately make false statements like this for your own agenda sake, I no longer have any reason to pay attention to your posts. It's very clear what you're arguing is agenda driven and you'll say just about anything at this point. Don't expect replies from me, I've wasted enough time on your posts.

I hadn't noticed that you actually conceded defeat in this post. And it must have been somebody else posting under your name in post #185 who said Lebron didn't leave a top 5 player behind. So who was the top 5 player KD left behind at OKC ?, even apart from the fact that KD wasn't an OKC player at the time given he had completed his contract and was a Free Agent who had not re-signed, and nor has anyone ever to my knowledge claimed he had given any undertaking to re-sign. Looks to me like he was conflicted and took a long time to make his decision, which you laud LeBron for supposedly doing in regard to the Heatles.