2024-25 NBA DPOY and All-Defense discussion

[zeebneeb]

Like, in terms of just the Pistons?
Wonder who it would of been in 2014? Josh Smith? Drummond? Josh Harrellson?

No it was league-wide.

I guess I'd need to see the graphic. Beef Stew has only been playing since 2021, and while he's posted some strong rim defensive numbers, I've never seen him atop any list.

This year (amongst guys who have played at least 900 minutes), Stewart is 11th in rim fg% differential, and 10th in opponent fg% at the rim. However he's 66th in rim frequency, so he's not defending nearly as many shots as some of the big defensive anchors.

Ok, I think I found where the information was gathered from, and seeing as how its the exact number(DFG% of 45.5%), im pretty certain of it.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defensive-impact

I added filters(if they are not active in the link) of having played greater then 30 games, and greater then 19mpg(Stew averages 19.9mpg) and I got that number, and yup, he's at the top of the list.

[HMFFL]

I think McDaniels should get some love -- at least for all defense. He is one of the best PoA defenders in the league, can guard 1-5, and he's also one of the best back line/help defending wings in the league.

He's not even on the radar.
Not listed under betting odds.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

[TheZachAttack]

I think McDaniels should get some love -- at least for all defense. He is one of the best PoA defenders in the league, can guard 1-5, and he's also one of the best back line/help defending wings in the league.

He's not even on the radar.
Not listed under betting odds.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

What does that have to do with my comment?

[HMFFL]

I think McDaniels should get some love -- at least for all defense. He is one of the best PoA defenders in the league, can guard 1-5, and he's also one of the best back line/help defending wings in the league.

He's not even on the radar.
Not listed under betting odds.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

What does that have to do with my comment?

Well, he probably won't receive much love.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

[TheZachAttack]

He's not even on the radar.
Not listed under betting odds.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

What does that have to do with my comment?

Well, he probably won't receive much love.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

What does that have to do with my comment?

[Kiss of Death]

Amen Thompson this season:

14.0 PPG
8.3 RPG
1.3 SPG
1.3 BPG

The only player in the league with 75+ steals and 75+ blocks.

- @statmuse

[bstein14]

Pistons #1 ranked defense in the league in 2025... it'll be interesting to see if any of them get on the 2nd team. Stewart especially goes so hard on defense and protects the paint but I understand some might pass him over for a 2nd team vote since he comes off the bench and plays just 19.8 MPG.

[PhilBlackson]

Honestly all due respect to Mobley, he's a FANTASTIC defender but he's not Dyson Daniels.

Dyson is the real DPOY imo.

If Evan played the same defence as Dyson, he'd be the goat defender (period). If I were coaching kids on the technical skills and intricacies of defending, I'd tell them to watch Daniels. Pound for pound he's playing the best defence of anyone in the league (yes even more than Wemby imo). All these bigger players have the added benefit of the obvious additional length where they don't have to be nearly as good on ball or even in the passing lanes or deflections (all signs of smothering defence), they just have to be moving their feet well enough to stay in front and make a very tough contest, then finish the possession with the rebound. But no one gets after their man like Dyson in the league. If either of Mobley or Wemby actually defended like Dyson does their opponents would literally be lucky to score a single point. Amen is quickly catching up but for me right now Daniels is THE best defender in the game pound for pound.

[Ruma85]

Honestly all due respect to Mobley, he's a FANTASTIC defender but he's not Dyson Daniels.

Dyson is the real DPOY imo.

If Evan played the same defence as Dyson, he'd be the goat defender (period). If I were coaching kids on the technical skills and intricacies of defending, I'd tell them to watch Daniels. Pound for pound he's playing the best defence of anyone in the league (yes even more than Wemby imo). All these bigger players have the added benefit of the obvious additional length where they don't have to be nearly as good on ball or even in the passing lanes or deflections (all signs of smothering defence), they just have to be moving their feet well enough to stay in front and make a very tough contest, then finish the possession with the rebound. But no one gets after their man like Dyson in the league. If either of Mobley or Wemby actually defended like Dyson does their opponents would literally be lucky to score a single point. Amen is quickly catching up but for me right now Daniels is THE best defender in the game pound for pound.

I think Camari needs to be in this discussion not necessarily dpoy, but in terms of defending on the perimeter, even though it's a small sample Goodwin is doing very well on the perimeter, also let's not act like Daniels doesn't have length, with an almost 6'11 wingspan he's no slouch, it sucks he won't get dpoy because without him plus the injuries the Hawks have had this season they sure wouldn't be where they are at the moment.

[PhilBlackson]

Honestly all due respect to Mobley, he's a FANTASTIC defender but he's not Dyson Daniels.

Dyson is the real DPOY imo.

If Evan played the same defence as Dyson, he'd be the goat defender (period). If I were coaching kids on the technical skills and intricacies of defending, I'd tell them to watch Daniels. Pound for pound he's playing the best defence of anyone in the league (yes even more than Wemby imo). All these bigger players have the added benefit of the obvious additional length where they don't have to be nearly as good on ball or even in the passing lanes or deflections (all signs of smothering defence), they just have to be moving their feet well enough to stay in front and make a very tough contest, then finish the possession with the rebound. But no one gets after their man like Dyson in the league. If either of Mobley or Wemby actually defended like Dyson does their opponents would literally be lucky to score a single point. Amen is quickly catching up but for me right now Daniels is THE best defender in the game pound for pound.

I think Camari needs to be in this discussion not necessarily dpoy, but in terms of defending on the perimeter, even though it's a small sample Goodwin is doing very well on the perimeter, also let's not act like Daniels doesn't have length, with an almost 6'11 wingspan he's no slouch, it sucks he won't get dpoy because without him plus the injuries the Hawks have had this season they sure wouldn't be where they are at the moment.

I'm fine with putting some respect on Camari's name even if I don't think he's truly in the convo but there's a huge difference between a 6'11 wingspan and 7'4....and 8' ft wingspan LOL and that's also completely ignoring standing reach. Just the sheer capacity of their overall length makes WORLD'S of a difference as obviously they can cover ground more easily and also be able to get away with a lot more mistakes since they can cover more ground easier and also be high enough to contest with obviously much greater ease, it's a clear unfair advantage. While not a perfect comparison and I'm actually not a hockey person at all, imagine you have one goalie that has a bunch of space and gaps protecting the net but has to rely on his skill to defend it vs a dude so huge it's actually difficult to even find the pockets to aim for. That SIZE makes a difference (no matter what she says lol).

It's just naturally harder to score on someone larger especially if they can move at relatively the same speed as you. But if we're talking about who's technically the most sound and best pound for pound, again it's Dyson Daniels. Because if either of Mobley or Wemby were literally defending the way Dyson does at their size they would be the automatic defensive goat because it would actually be insane trying to score on dudes as tall & long as they are if they were as technically sound as Dyson (and again I think Amen is catching up as his bball knowledge increases).

[Ruma85]

Honestly all due respect to Mobley, he's a FANTASTIC defender but he's not Dyson Daniels.

Dyson is the real DPOY imo.

If Evan played the same defence as Dyson, he'd be the goat defender (period). If I were coaching kids on the technical skills and intricacies of defending, I'd tell them to watch Daniels. Pound for pound he's playing the best defence of anyone in the league (yes even more than Wemby imo). All these bigger players have the added benefit of the obvious additional length where they don't have to be nearly as good on ball or even in the passing lanes or deflections (all signs of smothering defence), they just have to be moving their feet well enough to stay in front and make a very tough contest, then finish the possession with the rebound. But no one gets after their man like Dyson in the league. If either of Mobley or Wemby actually defended like Dyson does their opponents would literally be lucky to score a single point. Amen is quickly catching up but for me right now Daniels is THE best defender in the game pound for pound.

I think Camari needs to be in this discussion not necessarily dpoy, but in terms of defending on the perimeter, even though it's a small sample Goodwin is doing very well on the perimeter, also let's not act like Daniels doesn't have length, with an almost 6'11 wingspan he's no slouch, it sucks he won't get dpoy because without him plus the injuries the Hawks have had this season they sure wouldn't be where they are at the moment.

I'm fine with putting some respect on Camari's name even if I don't think he's truly in the convo but there's a huge difference between a 6'11 wingspan and 7'4....and 8' ft wingspan LOL and that's also completely ignoring standing reach. Just the sheer capacity of their overall length makes WORLD'S of a difference as obviously they can cover ground more easily and also be able to get away with a lot more mistakes since they can cover more ground easier and also be high enough to contest with obviously much greater ease, it's a clear unfair advantage. While not a perfect comparison and I'm actually not a hockey person at all, imagine you have one goalie that has a bunch of space and gaps protecting the net but has to rely on his skill to defend it vs a dude so huge it's actually difficult to even find the pockets to aim for. That SIZE makes a difference (no matter what she says lol).

It's just naturally harder to score on someone larger especially if they can move at relatively the same speed as you. But if we're talking about who's technically the most sound and best pound for pound, again it's Dyson Daniels. Because if either of Mobley or Wemby were literally defending the way Dyson does at their size they would be the automatic defensive goat because it would actually be insane trying to score on dudes as tall & long as they are if they were as technically sound as Dyson (and again I think Amen is catching up as his bball knowledge increases).

I get you I just discredited Wemby & Mobley from this conversation because let's be real they will not be putting that kind of effort on the defensive end for 2 reasons, 1 is, it's not required of them, & 2 their offensive responsibilities have grown.

[cupcakesnake]

There is still a bit of basketball to be played, and there are still a few guys we aren't sure are going to qualify based on injuries, but here's where I'm leaning with my all-defense teams:

Dyson Daniels
Amen Thompson
Jalen Williams
Evan Mobley
Jaren Jackson Jr

Toumani Camara
Kris Dunn
Draymond Green
Ivica Zubac
Rudy Gobert

If there was a 3rd team...

Andrew Nembhard
Alex Caruso
Lu Dort
Ausar Thompson
OG Anunoby

Other guys I still think about: Jaden McDaniels, Jayson Tatum, OG Anunoby, Derrick White, Dorian Finney-Smith, Cason Wallace, Walker Kessler, Goga Bitadze, NAW, Jarrett Allen, Isaiah Hartenstein, Tari Eason, Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Andre Jackson Jr., Ant, Al Horford, Jrue, Dillon Brooks, Aaron Gordon, Christian Braun, Keegan Murray.

[cupcakesnake]

I think Camari needs to be in this discussion not necessarily dpoy, but in terms of defending on the perimeter, even though it's a small sample Goodwin is doing very well on the perimeter, also let's not act like Daniels doesn't have length, with an almost 6'11 wingspan he's no slouch, it sucks he won't get dpoy because without him plus the injuries the Hawks have had this season they sure wouldn't be where they are at the moment.

I'm fine with putting some respect on Camari's name even if I don't think he's truly in the convo but there's a huge difference between a 6'11 wingspan and 7'4....and 8' ft wingspan LOL and that's also completely ignoring standing reach. Just the sheer capacity of their overall length makes WORLD'S of a difference as obviously they can cover ground more easily and also be able to get away with a lot more mistakes since they can cover more ground easier and also be high enough to contest with obviously much greater ease, it's a clear unfair advantage. While not a perfect comparison and I'm actually not a hockey person at all, imagine you have one goalie that has a bunch of space and gaps protecting the net but has to rely on his skill to defend it vs a dude so huge it's actually difficult to even find the pockets to aim for. That SIZE makes a difference (no matter what she says lol).

It's just naturally harder to score on someone larger especially if they can move at relatively the same speed as you. But if we're talking about who's technically the most sound and best pound for pound, again it's Dyson Daniels. Because if either of Mobley or Wemby were literally defending the way Dyson does at their size they would be the automatic defensive goat because it would actually be insane trying to score on dudes as tall & long as they are if they were as technically sound as Dyson (and again I think Amen is catching up as his bball knowledge increases).

I get you I just discredited Wemby & Mobley from this conversation because let's be real they will not be putting that kind of effort on the defensive end for 2 reasons, 1 is, it's not required of them, & 2 their offensive responsibilities have grown.

I don't agree at all with the assumption here that guard defense involves more effort than big man defense. The defensive responsibilities are different. It's safe to say that guards tasked with heavy screen navigation probably cover the most ground. Basically no bigs do much screen navigation, in part because they can't, and in part because it's so important to keep your largest bodies near the basket.

However, defending in the paint involves a way higher degree of physical play. Paints can be a blood bath where you're constantly fighting for position, boxing out, defending drives, or being put in 2 on one actions. Modern bigs have to execute long rotations, close out on 3-point shooters, and handle switches when guards die on screens. You've got to be able to hold your own in an iso against Ja Morant, and then recover to box out Zach Edey on the same play.

Smaller guards aren't inherently more skilled. Bigs can't do screen navigation because their bodies are too big. Smalls can't offer much paint protection because their bodies are too small. All 5 positions require a ton of skill, fundamentals, and effort.

[benhillboy]

There is still a bit of basketball to be played, and there are still a few guys we aren't sure are going to qualify based on injuries, but here's where I'm leaning with my all-defense teams:

Dyson Daniels
Amen Thompson
Jalen Williams
Evan Mobley
Jaren Jackson Jr

Toumani Camara
Kris Dunn
Draymond Green
Ivica Zubac
Rudy Gobert

If there was a 3rd team...

Andrew Nembhard
Alex Caruso
Lu Dort
Ausar Thompson
OG Anunoby

Other guys I still think about: Jaden McDaniels, Jayson Tatum, OG Anunoby, Derrick White, Dorian Finney-Smith, Cason Wallace, Walker Kessler, Goga Bitadze, NAW, Jarrett Allen, Isaiah Hartenstein, Tari Eason, Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Andre Jackson Jr., Ant, Al Horford, Jrue, Dillon Brooks, Aaron Gordon, Christian Braun, Keegan Murray.

Allow me to add

Jaylen Wells
GP2
Keon Ellis
Mason Plumlee
Haywood Highsmith
Jimmy Butler
Brandin Podz
Naz Reid

I don’t watch the Knicks. Have Bridges and Hart regressed? Totally understandable if they have given the recent and totally unsurprising Thibs controversy.

[Ruma85]

I'm fine with putting some respect on Camari's name even if I don't think he's truly in the convo but there's a huge difference between a 6'11 wingspan and 7'4....and 8' ft wingspan LOL and that's also completely ignoring standing reach. Just the sheer capacity of their overall length makes WORLD'S of a difference as obviously they can cover ground more easily and also be able to get away with a lot more mistakes since they can cover more ground easier and also be high enough to contest with obviously much greater ease, it's a clear unfair advantage. While not a perfect comparison and I'm actually not a hockey person at all, imagine you have one goalie that has a bunch of space and gaps protecting the net but has to rely on his skill to defend it vs a dude so huge it's actually difficult to even find the pockets to aim for. That SIZE makes a difference (no matter what she says lol).

It's just naturally harder to score on someone larger especially if they can move at relatively the same speed as you. But if we're talking about who's technically the most sound and best pound for pound, again it's Dyson Daniels. Because if either of Mobley or Wemby were literally defending the way Dyson does at their size they would be the automatic defensive goat because it would actually be insane trying to score on dudes as tall & long as they are if they were as technically sound as Dyson (and again I think Amen is catching up as his bball knowledge increases).

I get you I just discredited Wemby & Mobley from this conversation because let's be real they will not be putting that kind of effort on the defensive end for 2 reasons, 1 is, it's not required of them, & 2 their offensive responsibilities have grown.

I don't agree at all with the assumption here that guard defense involves more effort than big man defense. The defensive responsibilities are different. It's safe to say that guards tasked with heavy screen navigation probably cover the most ground. Basically no bigs do much screen navigation, in part because they can't, and in part because it's so important to keep your largest bodies near the basket.

However, defending in the paint involves a way higher degree of physical play. Paints can be a blood bath where you're constantly fighting for position, boxing out, defending drives, or being put in 2 on one actions. Modern bigs have to execute long rotations, close out on 3-point shooters, and handle switches when guards die on screens. You've got to be able to hold your own in an iso against Ja Morant, and then recover to box out Zach Edey on the same play.

Smaller guards aren't inherently more skilled. Bigs can't do screen navigation because their bodies are too big. Smalls can't offer much paint protection because their bodies are too small. All 5 positions require a ton of skill, fundamentals, and effort.

Nether do I, I was merely responding to him, I was going to a follow up to my response beforehand but it didn't make sense after I replied ether way I agree on all accounts on what you said. Nowadays it's hard to play defense in positions and the biggest reason is on most nights every one can shoot so there's very little hiding you place player on the court. also teams who are undersized compare to the rest of the league must be in more communication with each other than other teams as they are more prone to slips, breaks & mishaps in the defense, so they have operate together as a string to get stops, to boost the chances of going on a run on the offensive end.

[moderndarwin]

It’s been pretty clearly Draymond

[yellowknifer]

It’s been pretty clearly Draymond

He hasn’t gotten a lot of press really, but I wouldn’t be upset. Has he played enough to qualify? He missed a lot.

I lean towards Mobley myself. He is pretty rare. Guys with his length can’t usually move like he does. He’s kind of ideal in today’s NBA.

[Doctor MJ]

It’s been pretty clearly Draymond

He hasn’t gotten a lot of press really, but I wouldn’t be upset. Has he played enough to qualify? He missed a lot.

I lean towards Mobley myself. He is pretty rare. Guys with his length can’t usually move like he does. He’s kind of ideal in today’s NBA.

I was wondering if we'd start seeing Dray arguments, and I like seeing them, but if the season ended right now I think I'd say Mobley without too much debate. I don't want to talk as if my points below make Mobley inevitable - because I expect I'd have gone with Wemby like everyone else if he hadn't been hurt, and frankly I think Chet may well have taken the award had he been healthy too - but they aren't nothing.

Aside from the stuff I already know about these candidates, I like to start off querying the team's on-court DRtg when they guy is out there. Noteworthy guys from that, minimum 28 MPG & 50 GP:

1. Shai (OKC) 105.2
2. JDub (OKC) 105.8
3. Sengun (HOU) 106.6
4. Mobley (CLE) 107.0
5. Dort (OKC) 107.0

6. JJJ (MEM) 107.5
7. Zubac (LAC) 107.7
9. Gobert (MIN) 108.0
11. Holiday (BOS) 108.5
16. Green (GSW) 109.4

So the immediate thing here is what to do with the OKC guys. Shai's my MVP, but I really don't see him as a defensive anchor, and that's kinda true about the other OKC guys mentioned here. Easier for me to see, say, Dort as a DPOY candidate than Shai in theory, but if I'm going to consider a non-big, I'd really like him to stand out over the rest of his team.

I think we're all skeptical that Sengun is THAT strong of a defender. Teammates like Brooks & Amen are the ones who tend to get that defensive respect, but again I'd like to see those guys clearly separate themselves from a guy like Sengun and they aren't doing that.

Then we get to Mobley, JJJ, Zubac & Gobert. 4 bigs who it's relatively easy to see as DPOY choices (even if Zubac has never really been considered on that level before).

Finally we have Holiday - perimeter defensive legend who tops his team - and Green who I consider the reigning Defensive Player of the Decade.

My next goto statistically is to start looking at other more sophisticated approaches to impact but before I do, here's the thing:

Mobley's doing this as the universally agreed-upon best defensive player of the team with the best record in the league, and while leading the team in overall +/- (2nd in league behind Shai). Am I really going to favor, say, a guy like Zubac if he has slightly better impact metrics on a treadmill team? Probably not. That sort edge for Mobley is less clear against the other candidates, but it doesn't disappear. Basically anything resembling a tie is going to go for Mobley if things continue to play out as they have.

Okay, so, happy to look at other metrics, but if we go by Season Defensive EPM, here's the nba.com leaderboard among guy with that MPG & GP:

1. JDub 2.6
2. Amen 2.5
3. Zubac 2.3
4. Mobley 2.1
5. Green 2.0
(tie) Dyson 2.0
(tie) Barnes 2.0
(tie) Nembhart 2.0

And other guys mentioned earlier

JJJ 1.8
Sengun 1.8
Shai 1.7
Gobert 1.5
Holiday 1.3
Dort 1.2

Right so yeah, this doesn't make me want to side with Zubac over Mobley, though I don't think it unreasonable if others do.

JDub & Amen are the guys here with a bigger edge, so let's revisit defensive on-off now thinking of them along with Mobley. Note that I'm using b-r.com here because they have that laid out nicely.

Mobley -4.7 (tops among core Cav players)
Amen +1.5
JDub +2.2

So both Amen & JDub are on teams whose defenses are apparently doing better when they're on the bench. Of course I don't believe these guys are actual defensive weak spots and a stat like that can get skewed if you're playing more with offensive-oriented players...but when you're talking about the season DPOY, it's pretty weird to me to advocate for a guy in this position.

If EPM were pure RAPM then we could argue that when lineups are adjusted for, the raw on-off is entirely rebutted, but of course EPM is trying to factor in other things, and apparently those other things are favoring these two super-young guys. And this adds to the concern because typically the box score overrates the young because it misses out on BBIQ stuff.

So then when I look at this, I'm inclined to favor not just Mobley over those two, but probably other guys as well.

If we look at the defensive on-off for some of the other guys mentioned:

JJJ -5.7
Zubac -5.0
Gobert -3.6
Holiday -2.8
Green -0.3
Dyson +3.1

So yeah, looking at all of this, I might say right now:

1. Mobley
2. JJJ
3. Zubac

[MoneyTalks41890]

Probably slightly early to really talk about him on one of the defense teams, but he will be a fixture in the conversation going forward. And he's just a second year guy.

Read on Twitter

[cupcakesnake]

Probably slightly early to really talk about him on one of the defense teams, but he will be a fixture in the conversation going forward. And he's just a second year guy.

Read on Twitter

On a team with Lu Dort and Alex Caruso, Cason Wallace has had plenty of moments where he looks like the best perimeter defender on the team. He's a massive part of their turnover creating machine. He has a bit of Dyson Daniels in him, where he can patiently mirror a defender with intense focus, but keep his hands always ready to snatch a soul away.

I don't think many non-Thunder fans realize how good he already is, or that he's playing 27mpg for the Thunder and averaging 1.7 steals per game. He's 3rd in the league in steals per 100 (behind Dyson and Kris Dunn. Caruso would be leading it if he met the qualifying minutes).