Foul baiting: Do you have a problem with this play?

[RunOKC]

A lot has been said about SGA being a FT merchant who gets a soft whistle from the officials.

Here's an example from last nights game that was posted to reddit. Link to the thread in the spoiler. You'll find thousands of people commenting in agreement that this shouldn't be a foul.

Spoiler:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1ja0w2k/highlight_jaylen_brown_heads_to_the_bench_after/

You clearly see Brown sticks his arm into Shai's chest/left arm and Shai makes the officials call it by attempting to go up for a shot. This was called as a rip through/foul on the floor, but OKC was in the bonus and got free throws.

Read on Twitter

As long as I've been watching the NBA (since 2007~) this has been called a foul on the defense. Shai's quickness and IQ is just on another level and he's able to draw these "cheap" fouls a few times per game, which is understandably frustrating for the opponent and their fans. I have a hard time believing if a player on your favorite team did the same that you wouldn't see this as a foul considering precedent. I'll admit that Shai does get some BS calls (and he likely won't get those in the post season), but then I see people complaining about obvious fouls and wonder if the overall narrative is outpacing reality.

How would you ideally like to see a play like this officiated? Is it as simple as rocking your head back to sell contact equals no foul call? Let's hear it.

[dhsilv2]

Obvious foul imo...it's hard to defend.

[bisme37]

I promise I hardly ever complain about officiating and see the refs and their weird calls as part of the game. But I came away pretty annoyed last night. And not really about that one play.

It felt like the Thunder were allowed to be very physical on both ends (which, I like a physical game, so no problem there), but then when the Celtics kinda pushed back and tried to physical themselves, the OKC players (especially SGA) would flail and flop and exaggerate contact. And the refs ate it up. And then several Celtics players got frustrated and distracted by it instead of playing the game.

So yeah I guess I'm 1/3 annoyed with the Thunder for playing like that, 1/3 annoyed with the refs for falling for it, and 1/3 annoyed with the C's for not handling it well. I've seen similar complaints from a lot of other fans, but it's different when it's your team getting hosed lol.

I'm sure I'll get over it though haha. Good win last night OKC pals, despite me not enjoying it a ton.

[Bornstellar]

Yes, it's technically a foul, but it's a soft foul that is initiated by the offensive player. I'm of the mind that whatever advantage you can use to win, if it's legal, then why not exploit it. But I also totally understand why people don't like foul merchants like SGA or Embiid. Because yeah the play in the OP is a foul but SGA's entire purpose in that moment was to draw a foul first and make the bucket second. I think this is why people don't like him. He is a very gifted scorer with exceptional footwork and a deep bag of moves so it's annoying that he purposely seeks out ways to draw ticky tack fouls to get free throws. It is what it is. If OKC wins a title this season I doubt their fans are going to care if people don't like how SGA did it

[RunOKC]

I promise I hardly ever complain about officiating and see the refs and their weird calls as part of the game. But I came away pretty annoyed last night. And not really about that one play.

It felt like the Thunder were allowed to be very physical on both ends (which, I like a physical game, so no problem there), but then when the Celtics kinda pushed back and tried to physical themselves, the OKC players (especially SGA) would flail and flop and exaggerate contact. And the refs ate it up. And then several Celtics players got frustrated and distracted by it instead of playing the game.

So yeah I guess I'm 1/3 annoyed with the Thunder for playing like that, 1/3 annoyed with the refs for falling for it, and 1/3 annoyed with the C's for not handling it well. I've seen similar complaints from a lot of other fans, but it's different when it's your team getting hosed lol.

I'm sure I'll get over it though haha. Good win last night OKC pals, despite me not enjoying it a ton.

Fair enough

I do somewhat disagree that Boston wasn't allowed to be physical though. I felt like the Celtics were quite physical trying to deny the ball on the perimeter, and Tatum was aggressive on his drives (fair play though). I'm probably biased, so if the roles were reversed then maybe I'd be saying the same thing as you- but I try to keep it objective..

[MrPainfulTruth]

I promise I hardly ever complain about officiating and see the refs and their weird calls as part of the game. But I came away pretty annoyed last night. And not really about that one play.

It felt like the Thunder were allowed to be very physical on both ends (which, I like a physical game, so no problem there), but then when the Celtics kinda pushed back and tried to physical themselves, the OKC players (especially SGA) would flail and flop and exaggerate contact. And the refs ate it up. And then several Celtics players got frustrated and distracted by it instead of playing the game.

So yeah I guess I'm 1/3 annoyed with the Thunder for playing like that, 1/3 annoyed with the refs for falling for it, and 1/3 annoyed with the C's for not handling it well. I've seen similar complaints from a lot of other fans, but it's different when it's your team getting hosed lol.

I'm sure I'll get over it though haha. Good win last night OKC pals, despite me not enjoying it a ton.

I think this is consistently the theme observeed and discussed by everyone except for a few die hard delusional SGA / OKC fanboys (i was positively surprised by a considerable part of the fanbase though). The reason why so many people are annoyed with the Thunder and SGA. The Thunder get away with hand checking, running through screens and hacking under the basket as we saw in the Nuggets and Celtics games lately, and we keep hearing about how they are the best defense in the league and at the same time SGA is one of the worst foul merchants the league has to offer right now. We've seen this pattern in the past, and usually it came to a drastic halt in the post season. But it really feels like the NBA tries to set a new narrative - moving away from LBJ / the lakers to a new face of the league. We see it in the endless MVP discussions and we see it in the way they are being treated all season.

[dk1115]

As soon as he puts his hands on SGA's waist, isn't that a foul anyway?

[CIN-C-STAR]

I mean, the example you show is cheap, not a legit basketball play, and there’s no doubt the game would be much better and more enjoyable without it, but the league has been rewarding this stuff for well over a decade now so im not going to single Shai out for doing it.

As for how I’d like to see this stuff called?
The contact is minor and incidental imo. If the ref isn’t going to call it on its own, the offensive player flailing and chucking up an air ball shouldn’t change anything. I’d be fine with a no call here to encourage real basketball plays instead of playing for the whistle.
In a league where offensive players can throw themselves into defenders, body check them to clear space for a shot, kick them in the nuts on jump shots, use their off arm to clear defenders out or even push off a defender to get more lift for a dunk, I don’t see why every little bit of defensive contact has to be called because technically it’s a foul. Technically a lot of the stuff offensive players do is a foul too. Technically like half the screens set in the league are not legal. If we can give leeway there, I think we can give some on defense too.

[Duke4life831]

I’ll say this, one of the reasons I stopped watching the NBA is stuff like this.

Is it technically a foul? Sure. Do I find it to be fun entertaining basketball to watch? Nope.

I tuned into a game last week for a few minutes, it blows my mind how the NBA is the top of the level when it comes to individual talent, but is the least physical and most offensive leaning league of basketball out there.

Go watch Houston, Tennessee, Duke, St Johns, or basically any top 10 ranked defense in college ball play defense. My god the physicality allowed to take place is crazy, compared to the NBA.

And in my opinion its far more entertaining. The foul baiting on offense is rarely called (still called but not nearly at the same rate as the NBA).

To me it sucks the fun out of the game even more from me, when it’s highly skilled players who do this stuff all the time. The Embiid’s, SGA’s and so on. They don’t need to do these little things to get an advantage. But they do it because they know the offense has been given such an advantage in the rule calling.

Also I don’t want to hear the “they’re just too skilled to defend” argument either. When you have a guy like Kyrie who over the last 10+ years only has a FTr of just over .200 in some seasons. He’s as skilled as it comes. And for all the criticisms for how he acts off the court. The dude has never been a foul baiting player and he’s arguably one of the most skilled players to ever play the game.

[Peregrine01]

Your thread title and poll title is diametrically opposed so it may lead to some bad polling FYI.

[og15]

It's hard to argue this isn't a foul, it's also hard to argue that offensive players have not consistently been devising ways to get to the line, or to force defenders so play less aggressively at fear of picking up fouls.

This probably isn't one I would complain much about tbh, as a defender, I'm just keeping my hand out next time.

As soon as he puts his hands on SGA's waist, isn't that a foul anyway?

If the refs called all those fouls, games would never end.

They gauge whether it looks like the defender is impending (and there's a gradient on impeding) the offensive player when he comes to arms and all that getting involved.

[Lunartic]

Unnatural basketball play by SGA should result in no shooting foul.

Just call the tickytack foul when Tatum originally shoves his hand into SGA to impede his dribble. SGA making some unnatural, shot attempt when a defender is blocking him, should void any chance of it being a shooting foul. (Bonus obv applies)

[Handlez]

Definitely not a foul.

And should be punished for flopping.

[Patches Perry]

OKC aside, I would support the NBA allowing a little more handsy-ness defensively, but the NBA has made it clear for over a decade that you must defend with your feet. That means positioning and balance is everything. If you reach or are off balance, you are naturally going to be very vulernable to fouling. Shai is exceptionally good at putting defenders in these positions with his herky-jerky stop-and-go athleticism. Balance and positioning in the NBA defense is like "looking back at the ball" for a cornerback defending. Officials are not going to give you the benefit of the doubt if you're out of position and no longer making a play on the ball.

As an aside, I do think watching defenders who are still elite at defending in spite of these rules is very entertaining. Jrue Holiday over the years has done it better than anyone probably. He is the embodiment of pure defensive discipline. Watching defenders in the old guard wasn't as fun, because they would just hold and push. Being able to successfully defend through purely positioning, balance and contesting is very impressive. Also why I think OKC's defense is more fun to watch than their offense.

[og15]

Unnatural basketball play by SGA should result in no shooting foul.

Just call the tickytack foul when Tatum originally shoves his hand into SGA to impede his dribble. SGA making some unnatural, shot attempt when a defender is blocking him, should void any chance of it being a shooting foul. (Bonus obv applies)

I can't see how unnatural basketball play would pass here because he goes into his regular shooting motion. If he did some wild shooting motion that we know no one would ever do, that would be unnatural.

For example he shoots and then swings his arm on follow through to the side so that the defender clips him, or for example, a guy extending his leg in a way he normally wouldn't to get contact, that's what would be unnatural, because you don't naturally make that movement when shooting.

That doesn't really make sense here since he just goes up to shoot a jumpshot. Brown's arm is above SGA's left arm and if he goes up for a regular jumpshot from that spot, his arm will be impeded, so unnatural would not work from what I'm seeing.

[levon]

Called it in the game thread. SGA is calling attention to the fact that he's being handchecked. Ref shouldn't have to require a rip through to call this. Half of what we get angry about in terms of foulbaiting is a result of the refs not calling the game right.

[AbeVigodaLive]

That's a foul.

So why are we starting a thread over that play? Because it's Boston and was a national televised game?

Catch ANY other SGA game and it's very likely you'll find a foul call that was more egregious than that... oftentimes... multiple fouls in the same game.

[og15]

Called it in the game thread. SGA is calling attention to the fact that he's being handchecked. Ref shouldn't have to require a rip through to call this. Half of what we get angry about in terms of foulbaiting is a result of the refs not calling the game right.

Depending on the angle, the ref might not be able to gauge the force or severity of the contact. If you touch and go, or touch, but keeping your arm close, you can have your arm there. Now Jaylen does more stiffen the arm there, but if you don't get the right angle, you might miss it.

[Lunartic]

Unnatural basketball play by SGA should result in no shooting foul.

Just call the tickytack foul when Tatum originally shoves his hand into SGA to impede his dribble. SGA making some unnatural, shot attempt when a defender is blocking him, should void any chance of it being a shooting foul. (Bonus obv applies)

I can't see how unnatural basketball play would pass here because he goes into his regular shooting motion. If he did some wild shooting motion that we know no one would ever do, that would be unnatural.

For example he shoots and then swings his arm on follow through to the side so that the defender clips him, or for example, a guy extending his leg in a way he normally wouldn't to get contact, that's what would be unnatural, because you don't naturally make that movement when shooting.

That doesn't really make sense here since he just goes up to shoot a jumpshot. Brown's arm is above SGA's left arm and if he goes up for a regular jumpshot from that spot, his arm will be impeded, so unnatural would not work from what I'm seeing.

He only attempted the "shot" because he thought it would get him a call. It wasn't an actual shot attempt.

If no fouls were called, no player would ever take a shot with Tatum holding their arm down, it's a 2FG% type shot. He took it in order to coerce the refs into blowing the whistle. KD's rip-thru was the same thing and the league rightfully considered it a non-shooting play.

There's no natural shooting motion present here

[BelgradeNugget]

I would have been OK with this foul by Brown on SGA if I don't have to wach how Jokic is officiated nigh in and night out.

Watch on YouTube

You could see at:
1:10 clear foul by Naz read, not called, even Nuggets commentators were screeming at officials
2:10 clear reach in foul by DiVincenzo, uncalled
2:30 clear push foul by DiVincenzo in front of refs, nothing

All of those should have been and 1s, there are no fouls here when he missed shots...
So what was a question again, was that a foul by Brown on SGA. I don't know, because I don't know what is a foul in the NBA any more