Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[Ron Swanson]

This is honestly better than that FVV and just Eason trade that you love though lol. Jabari's still only 21 and has much more offensive potential yet to unlock, and a lottery pick in this draft is ideal, also as a trade asset. You obviously ask for another asset/draft pick if we're being forced to eat Van Vleet's bad salary though.

FVV has a team option on his $44mm deal and he's needed to match salaries. And yes, I'd push Houston for as much as they'd give back.

At the same time, our current perception of Dame's value is different (higher) than where the league's perception will be come June (unless Dame does great in the playoffs). We're sort of in a Durant/Suns type position here.

The trade market is all over the place right now in large part due to no one really understanding yet how to navigate the new CBA. Jimmy got dealt for a pittance and Luka got dealt for the most underwhelming star return in modern NBA history, while Mikal Bridges commanded a 4-5 pick haul. But other GM's aren't blind. They're seeing the Jimmy fallout, they're seeing Dame/Giannis be wasted by Doc and incompetent team construction/management.

Which is to say I don't think that a late lottery pick, a solid young player who hasn't exceeded expectations as a Top-5 pick, and just straight up bad/negative salary is much of a haul for a guy who's still putting up All-Star numbers and has a playoff riser pedigree. Those guys don't completely depreciate in value until they actually look cooked (see: Paul George), not just because teams are scared of the age. I'm furious that we've arrived at this point, but it's arguably one out of necessity. It was always going to be a 2, maybe 3-year window the second we acquired Dame to get Giannis another ring. We're about to absolutely squander the best 2-years of that window, so here we are.

[MickeyDavis]

Someone actually wants Masai?

He’s a certified genius compared to Horst and has a good relationship with Giannis, could and probably will do a lot worse(step on up Doc!)

You don't have to convince me about replacing Horst.

Toronto has been a dumpster since losing Kawai. They were good the year after the championship and since then just horrible.

They had VanVliet, Anunoby and Siakam, each of whom were coveted by many posters on here. Since 2019-20, the Raptors have been very bad.

You want a Masai type rebuild that shows no signs of success after 5 years?

The problem in replacing people like coaches and GMs is trying to get someone better. I don't mind taking a chance on someone, but not someone who we know isn't good.

Exactly. Fine with a new GM. No to Masai as POBO. He has shown nothing in trying to rebuild that team. And the "connection" he has with Giannis means absolutely nothing.

[paulpressey25]

Which is to say I don't think that a late lottery pick, a solid young player who hasn't exceeded expectations as a Top-5 pick, and just straight up bad/negative salary is much of a haul for a guy who's still putting up All-Star numbers and has a playoff riser pedigree. Those guys don't completely depreciate in value until they actually look cooked (see: Paul George), not just because teams are scared of the age.

I'm all for us getting a haul for Dame. And playoff performance will increase or depreciate his value.

Simply noting that Dame has been exposed here as a guy who is on the back-end of the career and doesn't appear to make guys around him better. As with Durant, the trade value today is a lot different than two years ago.

Thankfully Houston is a destination that makes a lot of sense and they actually have a bucketload of young assets and a matching salary. They are stacked with trade assets for a consolidation trade. We just need to beat Phoenix to the punch, since Durant is the other asset they might be interested in.

[MickeyDavis]

I'd like Houston to win no more than one round so they'll feel the need to make a big move. First round exit would be ideal. If they have too much playoff success they may roll with the same roster, hoping for organic improvement.

[Ron Swanson]

Which is to say I don't think that a late lottery pick, a solid young player who hasn't exceeded expectations as a Top-5 pick, and just straight up bad/negative salary is much of a haul for a guy who's still putting up All-Star numbers and has a playoff riser pedigree. Those guys don't completely depreciate in value until they actually look cooked (see: Paul George), not just because teams are scared of the age.

I'm all for us getting a haul for Dame. And playoff performance will increase or depreciate his value.

Simply noting that Dame has been exposed here as a guy who is on the back-end of the career and doesn't appear to make guys around him better. As with Durant, the trade value today is a lot different than two years ago.

Thankfully Houston is a destination that makes a lot of sense and they actually have a bucketload of young assets and a matching salary. They are stacked with trade assets for a consolidation trade. We just need to beat Phoenix to the punch, since Durant is the other asset they might be interested in.

You can keep screaming this from the rafters and we can debate the numbers/whether this is actually true, but it's irrelevant at this point. It doesn't mean the trade wasn't still an absolute no-brainer at the time, and it doesn't mean that other teams share this pessimistic view on Dame simply because him and Giannis are in a crap situation right now. It was just always a 2-3 year window and we're almost heading into Year 3 without as much as a single second of playoff basketball with those two both on the court together. You don't dump him for the first offer, but you have to canvass the league for deals.

[fansinceforever]

Which is to say I don't think that a late lottery pick, a solid young player who hasn't exceeded expectations as a Top-5 pick, and just straight up bad/negative salary is much of a haul for a guy who's still putting up All-Star numbers and has a playoff riser pedigree. Those guys don't completely depreciate in value until they actually look cooked (see: Paul George), not just because teams are scared of the age.

I'm all for us getting a haul for Dame. And playoff performance will increase or depreciate his value.

Simply noting that Dame has been exposed here as a guy who is on the back-end of the career and doesn't appear to make guys around him better. As with Durant, the trade value today is a lot different than two years ago.

Thankfully Houston is a destination that makes a lot of sense and they actually have a bucketload of young assets and a matching salary. They are stacked with trade assets for a consolidation trade. We just need to beat Phoenix to the punch, since Durant is the other asset they might be interested in.

Exactly. Dame's a shooting threat from anywhere and can use that to get guys off balance and get by them. He really does struggle to get his legs under him and shake free as often as we need though; especially down the stretch of a lot of these games. And in terms of playmaking, this team is inept.

We need to be active immediately and no, we're not going to get an ideal return. It's time to accept that or we likely receive less.

It is what is but this run is over. It's been over for a while if we're being honest.

[BigO]

Which is to say I don't think that a late lottery pick, a solid young player who hasn't exceeded expectations as a Top-5 pick, and just straight up bad/negative salary is much of a haul for a guy who's still putting up All-Star numbers and has a playoff riser pedigree. Those guys don't completely depreciate in value until they actually look cooked (see: Paul George), not just because teams are scared of the age.

I'm all for us getting a haul for Dame. And playoff performance will increase or depreciate his value.

Simply noting that Dame has been exposed here as a guy who is on the back-end of the career and doesn't appear to make guys around him better. As with Durant, the trade value today is a lot different than two years ago.

Thankfully Houston is a destination that makes a lot of sense and they actually have a bucketload of young assets and a matching salary. They are stacked with trade assets for a consolidation trade. We just need to beat Phoenix to the punch, since Durant is the other asset they might be interested in.

Exactly. Dame's a shooting threat from anywhere and can use that to get guys off balance and get by them. He really does struggle to get his legs under him and shake free as often as we need though; especially down the stretch of a lot of these games. And in terms of playmaking, this team is inept.

We need to be active immediately and no, we're not going to get an ideal return. It's time to accept that or we likely receive less.

It is what is but this run is over. It's been over for a while if we're being honest.

The run ended when it was determined KM could no longer play due to injury. Everything else is secondary. His departure necessitates a rebuild, whether a small one or a big one.

[Frank Nova]

Anyone that wants Bob Myers is out of their **** minds. Do you never listen to that dude talk about Giannis? Doc and Horst need to go but Bob Myers can eat a steamy pile of ****. No thanks.

[paulpressey25]

It is what is but this run is over. It's been over for a while if we're being honest.

When the Dame trade went down we all were ecstatic. I thought we had the modern day version of Shaq and Kobe. And it evidently got Giannis to sign the extension, which was the most important thing.

But after a year of watching Dame play, I got off the bandwagon because you can see the age sinking in. And he's not a guy that makes others better. As a Blazers counterpoint, prime Brandon Roy was a needle mover that did it all out there (offense/defense/passing)

So last June a few of us said time to cash out while we still can. Again, I realize this is real life and the Bucks weren't going to do it for variety of reasons. Just hoping the return this June is still within 80% of what we could have gotten last year. (and again, maybe he's like Jimmy Butler and dogs it during the regular season but will explode in the playoffs)

[DingleJerry]

Which is to say I don't think that a late lottery pick, a solid young player who hasn't exceeded expectations as a Top-5 pick, and just straight up bad/negative salary is much of a haul for a guy who's still putting up All-Star numbers and has a playoff riser pedigree. Those guys don't completely depreciate in value until they actually look cooked (see: Paul George), not just because teams are scared of the age.

I'm all for us getting a haul for Dame. And playoff performance will increase or depreciate his value.

Simply noting that Dame has been exposed here as a guy who is on the back-end of the career and doesn't appear to make guys around him better. As with Durant, the trade value today is a lot different than two years ago.

Thankfully Houston is a destination that makes a lot of sense and they actually have a bucketload of young assets and a matching salary. They are stacked with trade assets for a consolidation trade. We just need to beat Phoenix to the punch, since Durant is the other asset they might be interested in.

You can keep screaming this from the rafters and we can debate the numbers/whether this is actually true, but it's irrelevant at this point. It doesn't mean the trade wasn't still an absolute no-brainer at the time, and it doesn't mean that other teams share this pessimistic view on Dame simply because him and Giannis are in a crap situation right now. It was just always a 2-3 year window and we're almost heading into Year 3 without as much as a single second of playoff basketball with those two both on the court together. You don't dump him for the first offer, but you have to canvass the league for deals.

Yup good post. While of course teams know Dame is getting old and have to factor it in, I don't think they'll really hold these two years much against him due to the situation and lack of a modern offensive system this year. The offensive criticism we see on this board routinely on Dame were never issues for him before coming here. He's never had issues creating, ball movement, pounding the ball, etc before coming here. I would assume other teams are fairly confident he's still very good if he gets back in a modern motion/movement offense, but still its not like they're going to pony up a ton of value due his age and that he's now overpaid. They know he has a limited shelf life

[Profound23]

It is what is but this run is over. It's been over for a while if we're being honest.

When the Dame trade went down we all were ecstatic. I thought we had the modern day version of Shaq and Kobe. And it evidently got Giannis to sign the extension, which was the most important thing.

But after a year of watching Dame play, I got off the bandwagon because you can see the age sinking in. And he's not a guy that makes others better. As a Blazers counterpoint, prime Brandon Roy was a needle mover that did it all out there (offense/defense/passing)

So last June a few of us said time to cash out while we still can. Again, I realize this is real life and the Bucks weren't going to do it for variety of reasons. Just hoping the return this June is still within 80% of what we could have gotten last year. (and again, maybe he's like Jimmy Butler and dogs it during the regular season but will explode in the playoffs)

I think part of it is the age and part of it is in Portland he was able to just shoot whenever he wanted. There was no system, just Dame ball-hogging consistently. We didn't realize he was more Brandon Jennings rookie year on the Bucks than Steph Curry until it was too late. I will admit I was happy with the trade at the time and thought it was pretty much a guaranteed championship assuming everyone stayed healthy, but even at the time I wished it was possible to do the trade of Middleton for Dame instead.

Jrue would have made up for almost all of Dame's negative attributes.

[Profound23]

I have not given up on this team or this year, but I am almost there.

At least we have 2021. Nobody can ever take that from us. Thankfully our one title this era wasn't the Bubble title.

[DingleJerry]

It is what is but this run is over. It's been over for a while if we're being honest.

When the Dame trade went down we all were ecstatic. I thought we had the modern day version of Shaq and Kobe. And it evidently got Giannis to sign the extension, which was the most important thing.

But after a year of watching Dame play, I got off the bandwagon because you can see the age sinking in. And he's not a guy that makes others better. As a Blazers counterpoint, prime Brandon Roy was a needle mover that did it all out there (offense/defense/passing)

So last June a few of us said time to cash out while we still can. Again, I realize this is real life and the Bucks weren't going to do it for variety of reasons. Just hoping the return this June is still within 80% of what we could have gotten last year. (and again, maybe he's like Jimmy Butler and dogs it during the regular season but will explode in the playoffs)

I think part of it is the age and part of it is in Portland he was able to just shoot whenever he wanted. There was no system, just Dame ball-hogging consistently. We didn't realize he was more Brandon Jennings rookie year on the Bucks than Steph Curry until it was too late. I will admit I was happy with the trade at the time and thought it was pretty much a guaranteed championship assuming everyone stayed healthy, but even at the time I wished it was possible to do the trade of Middleton for Dame instead.

Jrue would have made up for almost all of Dame's negative attributes.

IDK how much you watched Por back then, but that's just not really true. It was not a Harden/Luka style ballhog offense. They always had great ball movement. He was a willing passer and creator. Their offense was often predicated around the other team blitz doubling him on a ball screen and then he makes the pass and the ball gets going. But of course, its the nba and there's a shot clock so there's gonna be more than enough solo stuff too. The issues you're saying really only started here and its tough to figure out why. Maybe one too many bigs out there, maybe giannis being clunky as the screener, maybe too many stand still catch/shoot guys, idk.

[Matches Malone]

New Coach (Vogel? Borrego? Cassell? Chris Quinn?)

idk how the owners would view a new coach and if they would balk at another first time HC hire after Griffin, but Johnnie Bryant the lead assistant under Kenny Atkinson would be intriguing. His offenses have thrived with Thibs in NY and now helping Kenny get the most out of CLE. Also had some stints working with Quin Snyder in Utah.

[paulpressey25]

The offensive criticism we see on this board routinely on Dame were never issues for him before coming here. He's never had issues creating, ball movement, pounding the ball, etc before coming here.

One guy got this right at the time. I know we're all supposed to hate him, but the entire analysis was spot on. Even the early part about PHX trading Ayton for Nurk.

Watch on YouTube

[Ron Swanson]

Prime Dame + Stotts' heavy pick & roll scheme was an automatic Top-5 offense for years and he's only been a Top-10 usage guy three times in his whole career. What are we doing here?

[BigO]

New Coach (Vogel? Borrego? Cassell? Chris Quinn?)

idk how the owners would view a new coach and if they would balk at another first time HC hire after Griffin, but Johnnie Bryant the lead assistant under Kenny Atkinson would be intriguing. His offenses have thrived with Thibs in NY and now helping Kenny get the most out of CLE. Also had some stints working with Quin Snyder in Utah.

Changing coaches isn't my number one priority, but if they do, getting a young assistant who really knew his stuff would be my preference.

No to Cassell. Reminds me of Ham too much.

Snyder would have been a great get a few years ago.

I have no idea how Doc is using or not using his assistants, but I'd interview Joerger and ask him how he'd change things. I'd interview Vogel for sure.

I would not run away from coaches who weren't successful, because a lot of times there are other reasons. A good example is at Detroit, where the guy was just fired and is probably coach of the year this year.

[Matches Malone]

Read on Twitter

[MickeyDavis]

I'm sure a meeting will turn this thing around. On the other hand at least there is acknowledgement that things are f'd up right now.

[JayMKE]

Someone actually wants Masai?

He’s a certified genius compared to Horst and has a good relationship with Giannis, could and probably will do a lot worse(step on up Doc!)

You don't have to convince me about replacing Horst.

Toronto has been a dumpster since losing Kawai. They were good the year after the championship and since then just horrible.

They had VanVliet, Anunoby and Siakam, each of whom were coveted by many posters on here. Since 2019-20, the Raptors have been very bad.

You want a Masai type rebuild that shows no signs of success after 5 years?

The problem in replacing people like coaches and GMs is trying to get someone better. I don't mind taking a chance on someone, but not someone who we know isn't good.

To be fair I don’t think Masai would be so conservative if he had Giannis to build around versus Scottie Barnes. It’s all relative, we have FedEx man right now and Doc being promoted to save face is probably the next thing.

The relationship with Giannis is important since we’re going to have to blow up the team and Im not **** trading Giannis.

Shoot Horst into the sun