Dallas - Toronto

[Johnston]

What's about a base of

Gafford
Lively
Omax
13

For

Poeltl
Dick

Seems amazing for Toronto. No idea why Dallas would do this. Poeltl isn't worth Gafford/Lively and Dick isn't worth 13. Value seems pretty tilted to Toronto.

Did you watch any Poeltl this year? At minimum he's a top 15 C on a good contract, fits timeline wise with the Mavs ckre and Dallas has decided to go in a defensive direction after the Luka robbery. AD has reiterated he doesn't want to play C and takes away a lot of wear and tear on AD.. Does Toronto need to add something? Read my first sentence I said as a base for the trade since ppl can't decide on the value difference between dick and lively.

[Mavrelous]

Healthy Lively is worth more than #7, how much one sees reduction in his value because of injury history is subjective, I wouldn't say he's anywhere near Dick in value though, I wouldn't add #13 to this trade.
I do note that Raptors fans valued 26 y/o OG win injury histroy with 2 years on his contract, being unextendable, and unredtricted more than #7 in 22 draft in the POR/TOR trade discussions, so I find valuing Lively less than #7 a bit odd.

[Godaddycurse]

Healthy Lively is worth more than #7, how much one sees reduction in his value because of injury history is subjective, I wouldn't say he's anywhere near Dick in value though, I wouldn't add #13 to this trade.
I do note that Raptors fans valued 26 y/o OG win injury histroy with 2 years on his contract, being unextendable, and unredtricted more than #7 in 22 draft in the POR/TOR trade discussions, so I find valuing Lively less than #7 a bit odd.

OG was the more sought after archtype and proven starter, while Lively is best suited to a platoon/can't handle a starters workload. OG played ~35 mpg while Lively plays ~24 mpg. he had 3 years of 67+ gp prior to his 2 injury riddled years. the following 3 years he averaged 66 gp. Lively's a bigger health risk than OG was back then. I think Lively's value will take a hit down the road w/o Doncic but happy to be proven wrong and for him to break out.

[Mavrelous]

Healthy Lively is worth more than #7, how much one sees reduction in his value because of injury history is subjective, I wouldn't say he's anywhere near Dick in value though, I wouldn't add #13 to this trade.
I do note that Raptors fans valued 26 y/o OG win injury histroy with 2 years on his contract, being unextendable, and unredtricted more than #7 in 22 draft in the POR/TOR trade discussions, so I find valuing Lively less than #7 a bit odd.

OG was the more sought after archtype and proven starter, while Lively is best suited to a platoon/can't handle a starters workload. OG played ~35 mpg while Lively plays ~24 mpg. he had 3 years of 67+ gp prior to his 2 injury riddled years. the following 3 years he averaged 66 gp. Lively's a bigger health risk than OG was back then. I think Lively's value will take a hit down the road w/o Doncic but happy to be proven wrong and for him to break out.

Lively has played exactly 2 seasons, last hear he missed time because of the death of his mother, he hasn't really had the chance to play multiple seasons.
The defensice ceiling Lively displayed in high stakes PO games is something OG never showed in TOR, archetype or not, impact wise Lively is in a different tier.
Yeah, he's going to struggle to play more than 30 MPG with his style.

[Tripod]

Healthy Lively is worth more than #7, how much one sees reduction in his value because of injury history is subjective, I wouldn't say he's anywhere near Dick in value though, I wouldn't add #13 to this trade.
I do note that Raptors fans valued 26 y/o OG win injury histroy with 2 years on his contract, being unextendable, and unredtricted more than #7 in 22 draft in the POR/TOR trade discussions, so I find valuing Lively less than #7 a bit odd.

OG was the more sought after archtype and proven starter, while Lively is best suited to a platoon/can't handle a starters workload. OG played ~35 mpg while Lively plays ~24 mpg. he had 3 years of 67+ gp prior to his 2 injury riddled years. the following 3 years he averaged 66 gp. Lively's a bigger health risk than OG was back then. I think Lively's value will take a hit down the road w/o Doncic but happy to be proven wrong and for him to break out.

Lively has played exactly 2 seasons, last hear he missed time because of the death of his mother, he hasn't really had the chance to play multiple seasons.
The defensice ceiling Lively displayed in high stakes PO games is something OG never showed in TOR, archetype or not, impact wise Lively is in a different tier.
Yeah, he's going to struggle to play more than 30 MPG with his style.

OG showed his defense plenty. It's just the rest of the world never paid attention until he went to NY and became a media darling

[Texas Chuck]

We all knew he could play defense in Toronto, mate, settle down. He just also was open about wanting to be a primary offensive option and most of us thought that was a bad idea. But nobody questioned how good he was as a defender.

But hey you got RJ and IQ out of it whom you think are plus starters so it all worked out for you in the end

[oldncreaky]

OG was the more sought after archtype and proven starter, while Lively is best suited to a platoon/can't handle a starters workload. OG played ~35 mpg while Lively plays ~24 mpg. he had 3 years of 67+ gp prior to his 2 injury riddled years. the following 3 years he averaged 66 gp. Lively's a bigger health risk than OG was back then. I think Lively's value will take a hit down the road w/o Doncic but happy to be proven wrong and for him to break out.

Lively has played exactly 2 seasons, last hear he missed time because of the death of his mother, he hasn't really had the chance to play multiple seasons.
The defensice ceiling Lively displayed in high stakes PO games is something OG never showed in TOR, archetype or not, impact wise Lively is in a different tier.
Yeah, he's going to struggle to play more than 30 MPG with his style.

OG showed his defense plenty. It's just the rest of the world never paid attention until he went to NY and became a media darling

Funnily enough, I don't think that MSG Network or Walt Frazier have really changed their view on OG. IIRC Clyde has always been a big fan.

ESPN on the other hand is full of hot takes, and their coverage makes you think that the OG in TOR and the OG in NYK are completely different players. I'd argue that OG's defensive impact in NYK is actually lower because the team is better and Bridges occasionally guards the other team's top threat.

RJ and IQ are nice players, and positive on-off. Whether or not they are worth a combined $60M is salary is a completely different question -- I'd say they're not. I'd love to "undo" the OG for IQ+RJ trade, but I'd be surprised if many NYK fans would agree with that.

[Tripod]

We all knew he could play defense in Toronto, mate, settle down. He just also was open about wanting to be a primary offensive option and most of us thought that was a bad idea. But nobody questioned how good he was as a defender.

But hey you got RJ and IQ out of it whom you think are plus starters so it all worked out for you in the end

I was referring to how media covers him now vs then and then of course the fans that were shocked at how good OG was...now that he is on the TV in the US way more. Ironically I wasn't thinking of diehards on here, we are all sicko fans...lol.

But like OG in 2022/23 had just as good a year as this year.

[Michaellam1987]

I don't get why Lively's name keeps coming up...he's the only affordable, high-upside piece on DAL. I would think it'd have to be a really big get for them to even consider moving him. They did score big by obtaining Gafford but I'd only take calls on him if DAL believes they have an abundance of quality bigs.

Lively's upside is really high, imo

Lively has been too injury prone

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Healthy Lively is worth more than #7, how much one sees reduction in his value because of injury history is subjective, I wouldn't say he's anywhere near Dick in value though, I wouldn't add #13 to this trade.
I do note that Raptors fans valued 26 y/o OG win injury histroy with 2 years on his contract, being unextendable, and unredtricted more than #7 in 22 draft in the POR/TOR trade discussions, so I find valuing Lively less than #7 a bit odd.

OG was the more sought after archtype and proven starter, while Lively is best suited to a platoon/can't handle a starters workload. OG played ~35 mpg while Lively plays ~24 mpg. he had 3 years of 67+ gp prior to his 2 injury riddled years. the following 3 years he averaged 66 gp. Lively's a bigger health risk than OG was back then. I think Lively's value will take a hit down the road w/o Doncic but happy to be proven wrong and for him to break out.

Lively has played exactly 2 seasons, last hear he missed time because of the death of his mother, he hasn't really had the chance to play multiple seasons.
The defensice ceiling Lively displayed in high stakes PO games is something OG never showed in TOR, archetype or not, impact wise Lively is in a different tier.
Yeah, he's going to struggle to play more than 30 MPG with his style.

Maybe he was holding back showing off his all defense tier impact this past week because he’s anti play in tourney. /greenfont

Very very interested to track the validity of your take next season when he plays a full season without Luka. The fit next to AD will be interesting to see how they manage. I very much doubt Lively will be a name on end of season lists but I’ll give benefit of the doubt for his return since April to say he still needed time to ramp up to competitive shape

[Mavrelous]

OG was the more sought after archtype and proven starter, while Lively is best suited to a platoon/can't handle a starters workload. OG played ~35 mpg while Lively plays ~24 mpg. he had 3 years of 67+ gp prior to his 2 injury riddled years. the following 3 years he averaged 66 gp. Lively's a bigger health risk than OG was back then. I think Lively's value will take a hit down the road w/o Doncic but happy to be proven wrong and for him to break out.

Lively has played exactly 2 seasons, last hear he missed time because of the death of his mother, he hasn't really had the chance to play multiple seasons.
The defensice ceiling Lively displayed in high stakes PO games is something OG never showed in TOR, archetype or not, impact wise Lively is in a different tier.
Yeah, he's going to struggle to play more than 30 MPG with his style.

Maybe he was holding back showing off his all defense tier impact this past week because he’s anti play in tourney. /greenfont

Very very interested to track the validity of your take next season when he plays a full season without Luka. The fit next to AD will be interesting to see how they manage. I very much doubt Lively will be a name on end of season lists but I’ll give benefit of the doubt for his return since April to say he still needed time to ramp up to competitive shape

Indeed...

Dereck Lively this year as a 21 y/o second year player has:
8.5/7.5/2.5 playing 23 MPG, he has 7 net rating 11 on/off.
This includes the post injury games, and half of the games were w/o Luka.
He has the these numbers coming of a PO run of 21 games where he posted similar raw numbers, but with higher impact stats.

He came back from stress fracture in his ankle, we have the following samples of Lively:
Last season RS.
Last year PO, double digit on/off over 20+ PO games.
This season RS with and w/o Luka before injury.
And we have the small sample since he came back from injury, 3 months off most of it in walking boot, and has played all of 5 games.

Over 3 of these 4 samples, my assessment stands, over the 4th one it doesn't, but we'll indeed see in the future what really holds.