Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[mdenny]

I mean, I think you can absolutely be an All-Defensive guy on a bad team, and Toronto wasn't a bad defense, especially in the second half. Of all things Scottie-related, I'm most open to revisiting my opinion of his defense. There are specific markers he doesn't meet which I typically use in evaluating that, but defense is a little harder to quantity than offense , you know?

He's a good defender. He isn't a volume shot contester in the way of a classic big, and he isn't a Caruso-level deflections guy, isn't huge with taking charges and stuff like that, but he seems to dig in and try to stay in front of or at least shade his man pretty well, and he does get semi-reasonable stocks for a wing.

Yet, even being an all defense, I think that is still not at the near max value, particularly, those who claim Anunoby is overpaid. Barnes is making more than Anunoby.

That's not totally true. Barnes avg is higher because his contract starts a year after OG's did.

OG made more this year, obviously, and will make more than Barnes every year the next 4 years. But Barnes has that 5th year locked in and OG's won't be known for awhile.

It's fair to say OG makes more considering he will every year the next 4...and the 5th is TBD. But it's only approx by 500,000- 1 million each year, but still more.

As of now, OG is 29th highest next year, Barnes 36.

Barnes play will dictate how his contract ends up but he was always getting it having ROTY and an All-star selection under his belt.

I agree.

But it's possible that Barnes has a complete meltdown next season. The ingredients are there for it to happen.

To an extent that doesn't exist for other players his age. He kinda sticks out as a guy who could either take a leap or also have a meltdown.

[tsherkin]

But it's possible that Barnes has a complete meltdown next season. The ingredients are there for it to happen.

To an extent that doesn't exist for other players his age. He kinda sticks out as a guy who could either take a leap or also have a meltdown.

"Meltdown" doesn't feel like a thing for Barnes.

I suspect his largest concern is simply not advancing on offense, because he's so far behind where we need him to be in order to fill the role we keep asking of him.

More likely, though, is that we shape his role a little more intelligently and he ends up a pretty valuable player for us, leveraging the strengths everyone has known he's had since before he was drafted. Barnes is good; we just keep asking him to do more than he should.

[Brinbe]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

[Tripod]

Yet, even being an all defense, I think that is still not at the near max value, particularly, those who claim Anunoby is overpaid. Barnes is making more than Anunoby.

That's not totally true. Barnes avg is higher because his contract starts a year after OG's did.

OG made more this year, obviously, and will make more than Barnes every year the next 4 years. But Barnes has that 5th year locked in and OG's won't be known for awhile.

It's fair to say OG makes more considering he will every year the next 4...and the 5th is TBD. But it's only approx by 500,000- 1 million each year, but still more.

As of now, OG is 29th highest next year, Barnes 36.

Barnes play will dictate how his contract ends up but he was always getting it having ROTY and an All-star selection under his belt.

I agree.

But it's possible that Barnes has a complete meltdown next season. The ingredients are there for it to happen.

To an extent that doesn't exist for other players his age. He kinda sticks out as a guy who could either take a leap or also have a meltdown.

You are reaching.

We all want him to be more efficient as offense has never come "naturally" for him. But we did see him embrace the defensive role this year and he is much more fitted for that. Plus, he has always been unselfish sh shifting offense to more natural offensive guys won't be an issue.

I have said before that if we keep everyone, there will be a bit of canabilism of stats that happen, since there is only 1 ball. Adding BI doesn't just "add" 22 pts to our scoring avg, it likely raises it a little while taking from others. I could care less who scores if the Raps are winning lots of games.

All of BI, RJ, IQ, Barnes and possibly Yak will have games where they are our leading scorer. All depends on matchups and exploiting them. Let's see how things play out. I could care less who our top scorer is, just win next year.

[mdenny]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

In siakam's 5th season....he was an nba champion and had also been the primary scoring threat on a first seed team in the conference.

There is ZERO similarity between how siakam was developed and how scotty is being developed. What a bunch of delusional nonsense.

It really is a cult.

Hard work like demar? Scott barnes? It's been 4 years now. Noone is talking about Barnes like that except for his personal trainer lol.

He's not a hard worker. He's not a gym rat. He's not a leader. He's not a point guard.

[tsherkin]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

Having Ingram, who is a better scorer and also a capable 5 apg type playmaker, will be a large boon to us as far as how we have to use Scottie, no doubt. And yeah, this season was lost, so it wasn't inappropriate that they tried things with Scottie. Frustrating, but it made sense. It'll only be truly problematic if we CONTINUE doing so next year.


But there's also pretty much no chance he fulfills the Magic archetype. That's long out the window. Magic was an efficient scorer from the word go, and more of a scorer in college than Scottie has ever been. He had tools Scottie does not, coupled to understanding and vision well beyond him. Obviously you're speaking of role, not player magnitude, but Magic worked as he did because he had things Scottie does not possess, so I don't think even invoking the name is the most useful thing here, if you know what I mean. We've got to be looking at different archetypes, IMHO. Effective ones, useful ones, but Magic's archetype was defined as much by his ability to elevate his scoring (while being hyper efficient on the volume he was already providing) when necessary as his playmaking. And even he had his trials until the middle and later portions of his career.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Darko does with the offense next year, obviously pending health and all that. We have some interesting options.

[mdenny]

That's not totally true. Barnes avg is higher because his contract starts a year after OG's did.

OG made more this year, obviously, and will make more than Barnes every year the next 4 years. But Barnes has that 5th year locked in and OG's won't be known for awhile.

It's fair to say OG makes more considering he will every year the next 4...and the 5th is TBD. But it's only approx by 500,000- 1 million each year, but still more.

As of now, OG is 29th highest next year, Barnes 36.

Barnes play will dictate how his contract ends up but he was always getting it having ROTY and an All-star selection under his belt.

I agree.

But it's possible that Barnes has a complete meltdown next season. The ingredients are there for it to happen.

To an extent that doesn't exist for other players his age. He kinda sticks out as a guy who could either take a leap or also have a meltdown.

You are reaching.

We all want him to be more efficient as offense has never come "naturally" for him. But we did see him embrace the defensive role this year and he is much more fitted for that. Plus, he has always been unselfish sh shifting offense to more natural offensive guys won't be an issue.

I have said before that if we keep everyone, there will be a bit of canabilism of stats that happen, since there is only 1 ball. Adding BI doesn't just "add" 22 pts to our scoring avg, it likely raises it a little while taking from others. I could care less who scores if the Raps are winning lots of games.

All of BI, RJ, IQ, Barnes and possibly Yak will have games where they are our leading scorer. All depends on matchups and exploiting them. Let's see how things play out. I could care less who our top scorer is, just win next year.

I hear that. I am not a stat guy. I don't play basketball pools or whatever that stuff is. I agree with you that winning is more important than everything else.

But scotty's body language seems overly positive when he puts up stats while we are losing. And when we are winning while he's not putting up stats...he seems to sulk.

[Brinbe]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

In siakam's 5th season....he was an nba champion and had also been the primary scoring threat on a first seed team in the conference.

There is ZERO similarity between how siakam was developed and how scotty is being developed. What a bunch of delusional nonsense.

It really is a cult.

Hard work like demar? Scott barnes? It's been 4 years now. Noone is talking about Barnes like that except for his personal trainer lol.

He's not a hard worker. He's not a gym rat. He's not a leader. He's not a point guard.

That's some real dumb hater talk. Did he piss in your cereal or something? Bro, Scottie isn't even 24 yet and he has genuine accolades to his name. He had some stagnation this year but he was hardly as awful as you say. You don't defend like he does, which is to say very well, if you don't work hard on your game. Effort wasn't the issue, it was ability. Those are seperate things.

And to think that's a certainty next year is just your own opinion and nothing based in fact.

Anyway, no one should take you seriously anyway after your burner crap.

Like you don't even make sense. You can't just compare guys five years into their career. You have to take their age into account.




why are you even on this board? you have ZERO real ball knowledge at all

[Brinbe]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

Having Ingram, who is a better scorer and also a capable 5 apg type playmaker, will be a large boon to us as far as how we have to use Scottie, no doubt. And yeah, this season was lost, so it wasn't inappropriate that they tried things with Scottie. Frustrating, but it made sense. It'll only be truly problematic if we CONTINUE doing so next year.


But there's also pretty much no chance he fulfills the Magic archetype. That's long out the window. Magic was an efficient scorer from the word go, and more of a scorer in college than Scottie has ever been. He had tools Scottie does not, coupled to understanding and vision well beyond him. Obviously you're speaking of role, not player magnitude, but Magic worked as he did because he had things Scottie does not possess, so I don't think even invoking the name is the most useful thing here, if you know what I mean. We've got to be looking at different archetypes, IMHO. Effective ones, useful ones, but Magic's archetype was defined as much by his ability to elevate his scoring (while being hyper efficient on the volume he was already providing) when necessary as his playmaking. And even he had his trials until the middle and later portions of his career.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Darko does with the offense next year, obviously pending health and all that. We have some interesting options.

That's a backwards way of looking at it. Magic was a much better player, there's obviously no comparison there, but he also played in a different era with much better players around him. I'm sure if you gave Scottie two HOFers, an all-time great C plus great transition running mate in Worthy, one of the best defensive guards in history in Cooper coming off your bench plus a multitude of great role players like Scott/Green/etc, he'd look better too.

Scottie was asked to step outside of his comfort zone and play a variety roles because it was a developmental season. Not all of it was a success, obviously, but judging the rest of his career off of it is dumb as hell and that's all you've seemed to be doing for months now and it makes zero sense. He also played with a bunch of rooks and FAs with major pieces shuffling in and out of the lineup.

Players generally play better when they're surrounded by better talent and that's true for everyone, whether that's Scottie, Magic or MJ. And he'll probably be a lot better next season with IQ/RJ/Ingram/Yak and others to play off of.

He has a way of making his critics eat crow in the end and it'll probably happen once again.

[Tripod]

I agree.

But it's possible that Barnes has a complete meltdown next season. The ingredients are there for it to happen.

To an extent that doesn't exist for other players his age. He kinda sticks out as a guy who could either take a leap or also have a meltdown.

You are reaching.

We all want him to be more efficient as offense has never come "naturally" for him. But we did see him embrace the defensive role this year and he is much more fitted for that. Plus, he has always been unselfish sh shifting offense to more natural offensive guys won't be an issue.

I have said before that if we keep everyone, there will be a bit of canabilism of stats that happen, since there is only 1 ball. Adding BI doesn't just "add" 22 pts to our scoring avg, it likely raises it a little while taking from others. I could care less who scores if the Raps are winning lots of games.

All of BI, RJ, IQ, Barnes and possibly Yak will have games where they are our leading scorer. All depends on matchups and exploiting them. Let's see how things play out. I could care less who our top scorer is, just win next year.

I hear that. I am not a stat guy. I don't play basketball pools or whatever that stuff is. I agree with you that winning is more important than everything else.

But scotty's body language seems overly positive when he puts up stats while we are losing. And when we are winning while he's not putting up stats...he seems to sulk.

Disagree.

I think he gets down on himself when he misses shots he knows he should be making. But this past year there was way less than in years past.

And Barnes gets just as much joy from a great assist, a block, or a defensive stop as he does for a bucket. Not everyone is like that as we know.

We have to realize that players are not robots. We have seen essentially a complete flip of the entire roster and staff the last 2 years. Things often take time. It's why I personally am excited for next year. We finally have good playable depth 10-12+deep...just got to fill the backup C spot. Let's see how all these pieces mesh when trying to win every game. It's why I am anti "trade RJ". Let's see how they ALL do together and adjust what we need to.

I know I have used this example before, but vs Memphis Barnes struggled vs the bigger JJJ. Well adding BI means JJJ is likely guarding BI. That makes Barnes matchup easier. He still needs to execute but things are now easier. Vs other teams, maybe it's RJ that gets the matchup we can exploit. Etc... Each night it could ge a different guy, and that's a good thing.

For now, I just want to get lucky and win the draft to keep adding talent!

[tsherkin]

That's a backwards way of looking at it. Magic was a much better player, there's obviously no comparison there, but he also played in a different era with much better players around him. I'm sure if you gave Scottie two HOFers, an all-time great C plus great transition running mate in Worthy, one of the best defensive guards in history in Cooper coming off your bench plus a multitude of great role players like Scott/Green/etc, he'd look better too.

Sure, some. But Scottie misses a lot of open shots, and never looked especially remarkable in his first two seasons. We'll have to see what he looks like with a higher proportion of assisted buckets, because on-ball is not his friend. On-ball was, however, good for Magic, which is one of the reasons that archetype isn't really a sensible comparison. What you're talking about with Magic has more to do with team success than with individual performance.

Magic is an awful point of comparison because he had a lot of scoring ability which Scottie doesn't have, and had been showing it since prior to his entry into the league. Better post scorer, more dangerous in transition, more able to open up his own action with the threat of his pass. By the middle of his career, he was also a better shooter, too, and had always been more dangerous on an open set shot and at the line. Remember, Magic was good enough that he led the league in FT% one year, and twice shot 90% or better on a season. Scottie is... not that.

Big, big differences in what went into making those guys who they were. Magic, for example, was an actual serious danger on the block. Scottie is not anything like that at all. He has some tools there, but he isn't as proficient as Magic. And he certainly isn't a playmaking hub from the elbow with his back to the basket in the same way. It becomes harder to discuss the particulars while still acknowledging that magnitude is never gonna be the same, but that's sort of the point: there are SO many differences that the archetype doesn't really mean anything. Yes, Scottie's a tall ball handler who can pass some, but because he isn't a good on-ball scorer, he doesn't map anything near to the archetype of what Magic represented. There are better comparisons for someone like Scottie.

Scottie was asked to step outside of his comfort zone and play a variety roles because it was a developmental season. Not all of it was a success, obviously, but judging the rest of his career off of it is dumb as hell and that's all you've seemed to be doing for months now and it makes zero sense. He also played with a bunch of rooks and FAs with major pieces shuffling in and out of the lineup.

Players generally play better when they're surrounded by better talent and that's true for everyone, whether that's Scottie, Magic or MJ. And he'll probably be a lot better next season with IQ/RJ/Ingram/Yak and others to play off of.

He has a way of making his critics eat crow in the end and it'll probably happen once again.

There are a couple of ways better players around a guy helps invigorate offense. One of them is getting that guy off-ball. That's the way it should help Scottie. With him tasked less with active creation, he should hopefully be able to create a little less on higher efficiency and lower shooting volume. Following on this, it helps guys get into the corner or otherwise C+S a little more, which is typically higher-efficiency than shot-making off a live dribble or post-up, etc. A little more action in transition, etc.

Another way is by opening spacing, which has not really been Scottie's big concern.

The concern with Scottie is less that he can't be better than he is now, and more that we are asking him to support a role he doesn't have the tools for.

[mdenny]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

In siakam's 5th season....he was an nba champion and had also been the primary scoring threat on a first seed team in the conference.

There is ZERO similarity between how siakam was developed and how scotty is being developed. What a bunch of delusional nonsense.

It really is a cult.

Hard work like demar? Scott barnes? It's been 4 years now. Noone is talking about Barnes like that except for his personal trainer lol.

He's not a hard worker. He's not a gym rat. He's not a leader. He's not a point guard.

That's some real dumb hater talk. Did he piss in your cereal or something? Bro, Scottie isn't even 24 yet and he has genuine accolades to his name. He had some stagnation this year but he was hardly as awful as you say. You don't defend like he does, which is to say very well, if you don't work hard on your game. Effort wasn't the issue, it was ability. Those are seperate things.

And to think that's a certainty next year is just your own opinion and nothing based in fact.

Anyway, no one should take you seriously anyway after your burner crap.

Like you don't even make sense. You can't just compare guys five years into their career. You have to take their age into account.




why are you even on this board? you have ZERO real ball knowledge at all

I replied to my own post fool. I'll do it again. That means I had a burner account?

You were the one who said Terrence Davis and Malachi flynn were our "backcourt of the future".

You went hard on Malachi flynn. I remember that about you lol. You swore by that guy for some reason. You are a basically a hype man for guys destined to play in Europe. I don't even know what you see when you watch basketball.

You were the only person that thought Malachi flynn was gonna be a star player for like two years.

I didn't say "scotty was awful" this year. You said that. I said you are in a delusional cult that wants to play make-believe about his performance and potential. "He's like magic johnson".

After 4 seasons...magic won 2 chips and 2 mvps.

[Tha Cynic]

Having Ingram in the fold will def help a lot in terms of offloading offensive burdens.

They were absolutely force-feeding Scott lead reps he wasn't equipped for and the results were ugly but it's what they should be doing during a developmental season. That's also how they developed Pascal and OG. Push you out of your comfort zone and hope is that it pays off down the road. And Barnes is still young enough that it wouldn't be unexpected for him to hit a new offensive peak in the next 2-3 years and coupled with his defense that does make for a pretty good two-way weapon to have, though certainly not an normal A1 cornerstone. But maybe like DeMar through hard work and perseverance he eventually develops more of a bag and that edges him closer to being the on-ball playmaker he sees himself as and he more fully fulfills the Magic archetype as a lead guy who's not necessarily a lead scorer.

Development also isn't linear and perhaps this is the peak of Scottie's progression but that doesn't seem too likely to me.

I think some people like the stats more than watching the game and the theory here is that stats show if a player does not improve by a certain time in a linear way in their first 3 years, they will never improve.

If you notice, one of our posters constantly says Barnes will
never improve but says Banchero and Wagner will due to age, event though those two have also been very inefficient and have even regressed in some areas. Their thinking is probably that historically players who improve at certain things in a linear fashion will improve more, while those who didn’t show as much of a linear growth in the first first 3 or 4 years will never improve. It’s difficult to have any argument against that since Barnes now has two season where he stagnated even though he took a leap in year 3. You can only wait for next year to say anything back to a closed minded view like that. Personally, I prefer to look at situations that can lead to better success and what the player can do to get better at clear weaknesses that can only go up (or stagnate) I guess.

The absolutes I definitely do not agree with. These aren’t robots who all need to be treated the same. I think some players don’t improve because teams will by a certain point put them in a box to get more immediate team success. So example would be making them just dunkers or cutters. I don’t think the Raptors will do that.

Clearly, Barnes needs a lot of work on offense, but even a small offensive improvement will actually be significant overall because he is a very good defender. If Barnes ever becomes an efficient (even league average efficient) he’s an easy all star every year. Getting to that efficiency is what will be difficult because his long range is bad and he misses too many easy shots inside.

I personally enjoy watching players and seeing progress. Otherwise the game would be boring to watch imo. Barnes would be a good story since he is someone who came into the league with no bag and he’s trying to become more of an offensive player. Let’s hope he gets there.

[tsherkin]

If you notice, one of our posters constantly says Barnes will
never improve but says Banchero and Wagner will due to age, event though those two have also been very inefficient.

If you're talking about me (maybe? I don't usually talk about Wagner, could be wrong), my interest with Banchero has to do with his fluidity, handle and the flashes he's shown in year 3. I'm still skeptical because he's nothing remarkable as a finisher right now, but he did have a consequential injury. He is already a better 3pt shooter than Barnes, and of comparable offensive impact to our abbreviated seasons from Scottie last year but Orlando was the 4th-worst offense in the league this year and he wasn't a HUGE help to that, because he was something like 2.5% below league-average efficiency in just over half a season's worth of games.

Whether you meant me or not, it's worth articulating that it isn't so much about linear improvement as it is about what skillsets and tools a player does and doesn't have. And that traditionally, we see a certain level of advancement over a player's first four years IF he is going to reach a certain threshold of play, which is an important caveat. Mostly it pertains to the idea of whether or not he'll be worthwhile as a volume scorer, in particular, not if he can be a useful component of our team as we start trying to win. Because being a valid choice as a volume shooter is very different from being a useful player on a quality team, and Barnes has shown us a bunch of different ways in which he contributes which are already quite useful.

Again, maybe you're not talking about me, but it's something I've been meaning to articulate anyway.

[Duffman100]

In siakam's 5th season....he was an nba champion and had also been the primary scoring threat on a first seed team in the conference.

There is ZERO similarity between how siakam was developed and how scotty is being developed. What a bunch of delusional nonsense.

It really is a cult.

Hard work like demar? Scott barnes? It's been 4 years now. Noone is talking about Barnes like that except for his personal trainer lol.

He's not a hard worker. He's not a gym rat. He's not a leader. He's not a point guard.

That's some real dumb hater talk. Did he piss in your cereal or something? Bro, Scottie isn't even 24 yet and he has genuine accolades to his name. He had some stagnation this year but he was hardly as awful as you say. You don't defend like he does, which is to say very well, if you don't work hard on your game. Effort wasn't the issue, it was ability. Those are seperate things.

And to think that's a certainty next year is just your own opinion and nothing based in fact.

Anyway, no one should take you seriously anyway after your burner crap.

Like you don't even make sense. You can't just compare guys five years into their career. You have to take their age into account.




why are you even on this board? you have ZERO real ball knowledge at all

I replied to my own post fool. I'll do it again. That means I had a burner account?

You were the one who said Terrence Davis and Malachi flynn were our "backcourt of the future".

You went hard on Malachi flynn. I remember that about you lol. You swore by that guy for some reason. You are a basically a hype man for guys destined to play in Europe. I don't even know what you see when you watch basketball.

You were the only person that thought Malachi flynn was gonna be a star player for like two years.

I didn't say "scotty was awful" this year. You said that. I said you are in a delusional cult that wants to play make-believe about his performance and potential. "He's like magic johnson".

After 4 seasons...magic won 2 chips and 2 mvps.

Hey guys, more basketball talk (which is good), tone down the aggression and personal attacks. pls and thks.

[PushDaRock]

Scottie has had one of the more unusual development arcs for a prospect. Year 1, he surprises pretty much everyone being much better and more advanced than anyone thought and wins ROY. Year 2, he disappoints by getting worse at practically everything. Year 3, he shocks everyone with a tremendous start to the year, ends up an AS before tailing off and getting hurt to end the year. Year 4, he disappoints again by getting worse at nearly everything offensively. How he looks in Year 5 is really anyone's guess.

Development isn't linear but you just don't see 2 years of actual regression in the first 4 years of a career typically speaking.

As far as the age thing, I will say that while Scottie is still only turning 24 this year, he's also far more experienced than the typical player his age as he has been playing 34 mpg since day 1, he's at nearly 10k minutes in the league. When you have played that many minutes, you are probably closer to your prime than away from it.

[tsherkin]

Development isn't linear but you just don't see 2 years of actual regression in the first 4 years of a career typically speaking.

It's well and good to note that development isn't linear; this is even more true now that most in the draft are 19. It's several years before they'd normally have hit the league in decades past. So there's something to the idea of having a little more patience. 30 years ago, Scottie would have just finished like his 2nd year in the league, and everything about his career would have been different, because after 3 or 4 years in college, players tend to be more known quantities. Off-dribble shooting is not typically something we see a ton of development in once a player hits the league... but that doesn't make it impossible, just unlikely. Seeing a ton of improvement when a guy is pretty consistently rough from ATB and is generally quite weak from the corners, in reasonable volume, gets less and less likely as time goes on. If he was taking 1 3PA/g, then it might be a little different, but he's been bombing in volume and even last year, wasn't even at league average efficiency at his best to date. So you take his weak J, non-elite FT shooting, non-elite draw rate, average finishing by the basket, unremarkable volume around the rim, non-elite short game and non-elite athleticism, and the look of his upper bound starts to be lower and lower.

But where's the middle space, right? He isn't gonna be a hyper-efficient 25+ ppg guy. Okay, cool. Those aren't that common anyway.

In the league in 24-25, there were 44 guys who scored 20+ and player 40+ games. If you make that 19+ ppg, you get 52 players. And among those, Barnes was dead-last in efficiency, a full 1.3% worse than even LaMelo Ball. That's... brutally bad. 32 of them matched or exceeded league-average efficiency, to give some context.

But let's be generous. Hand injuries, eye injuries. Scottie was banged up this year. Played 5 more games than he did last year, but let's look at his efficiency from all his seasons, actually. Barnes was at 56.6% TS last year, which would be only -1.0% rTS this season. That would still rank him 38th of 52 among guys at his volume playing 40+ games and posting 19+ ppg. And that's the best we've seen from Scottie. And remember, he was at 52.4% TS in 2023 as well, so this isn't just a random drop due to injuries. He played 77 games that season, and shot 13.2 FGA/g. And played 34.8 mpg, compared to 32.8 this year, so it wasn't even logging heavy minutes (and that's with Scottie ramping up minutes over the last couple months).

I think that rather tidily illustrates the problem with Scottie as a scorer, and projections of him at the moment. He's very, very bad at it, and improving from the hole where he finds himself to a degree which will be useful to us in volume is exceedingly unlikely. Like, guys who improve a bunch usually have some sort of basis upon which to found their improving game. Athleticism, shooting ability, slashing ability, isolation scoring, something, right? So there's usually some possession mud to clean up, some thing tactically to alter and then they can start playing a little better. They don't typically turn into superstars, but I think that's pretty clearly off the table at this point, and we're mostly agreed that we're looking for something a lot more modest out of him.

And there's hope for that. There isn't going to be a lot of reason to ram shots to him next year with BI here. He's immediately a better scorer, and should be our focus point for volume. Barrett's been as good as Scottie ever has in terms of scoring, given or take, and at least can be leveraged for corner shooting and off-ball slashing. We have some things to work through with our youth, like Gradey and Ochai. Poeltl is good for some low-volume stuff. Quickley, for sure. No clue who we're going to draft or what Masai might do, but even in advance of that, we have options.

We don't NEED to ram scoring possessions through Scottie anymore, so hopefully now that we're pivoting to the idea of trying to win, we don't force it needlessly. And that should help tailor his possession distribution in a more optimal way, which might help him look a little better. A theme over his first four seasons is < 50% of his 2pts being assisted. He blows donkeys from 3, and I think that experiment should mostly end, but there are piles of ways we can reduce his volume and increase the passing support going into his shots, which should help a lot while accenting his D and passing as his inefficiency becomes less of an issue.

Scottie's probably going to be with us for a long time, and there are a bunch of ways in which that could go very well for us.

[PushDaRock]

Development isn't linear but you just don't see 2 years of actual regression in the first 4 years of a career typically speaking.

It's well and good to note that development isn't linear; this is even more true now that most in the draft are 19. It's several years before they'd normally have hit the league in decades past. So there's something to the idea of having a little more patience. 30 years ago, Scottie would have just finished like his 2nd year in the league, and everything about his career would have been different, because after 3 or 4 years in college, players tend to be more known quantities. Off-dribble shooting is not typically something we see a ton of development in once a player hits the league... but that doesn't make it impossible, just unlikely. Seeing a ton of improvement when a guy is pretty consistently rough from ATB and is generally quite weak from the corners, in reasonable volume, gets less and less likely as time goes on. If he was taking 1 3PA/g, then it might be a little different, but he's been bombing in volume and even last year, wasn't even at league average efficiency at his best to date. So you take his weak J, non-elite FT shooting, non-elite draw rate, average finishing by the basket, unremarkable volume around the rim, non-elite short game and non-elite athleticism, and the look of his upper bound starts to be lower and lower.

But where's the middle space, right? He isn't gonna be a hyper-efficient 25+ ppg guy. Okay, cool. Those aren't that common anyway.

In the league in 24-25, there were 44 guys who scored 20+ and player 40+ games. If you make that 19+ ppg, you get 52 players. And among those, Barnes was dead-last in efficiency, a full 1.3% worse than even LaMelo Ball. That's... brutally bad. 32 of them matched or exceeded league-average efficiency, to give some context.

But let's be generous. Hand injuries, eye injuries. Scottie was banged up this year. Played 5 more games than he did last year, but let's look at his efficiency from all his seasons, actually. Barnes was at 56.6% TS last year, which would be only -1.0% rTS this season. That would still rank him 38th of 52 among guys at his volume playing 40+ games and posting 19+ ppg. And that's the best we've seen from Scottie. And remember, he was at 52.4% TS in 2023 as well, so this isn't just a random drop due to injuries. He played 77 games that season, and shot 13.2 FGA/g. And played 34.8 mpg, compared to 32.8 this year, so it wasn't even logging heavy minutes (and that's with Scottie ramping up minutes over the last couple months).

I think that rather tidily illustrates the problem with Scottie as a scorer, and projections of him at the moment. He's very, very bad at it, and improving from the hole where he finds himself to a degree which will be useful to us in volume is exceedingly unlikely. Like, guys who improve a bunch usually have some sort of basis upon which to found their improving game. Athleticism, shooting ability, slashing ability, isolation scoring, something, right? So there's usually some possession mud to clean up, some thing tactically to alter and then they can start playing a little better. They don't typically turn into superstars, but I think that's pretty clearly off the table at this point, and we're mostly agreed that we're looking for something a lot more modest out of him.

And there's hope for that. There isn't going to be a lot of reason to ram shots to him next year with BI here. He's immediately a better scorer, and should be our focus point for volume. Barrett's been as good as Scottie ever has in terms of scoring, given or take, and at least can be leveraged for corner shooting and off-ball slashing. We have some things to work through with our youth, like Gradey and Ochai. Poeltl is good for some low-volume stuff. Quickley, for sure. No clue who we're going to draft or what Masai might do, but even in advance of that, we have options.

We don't NEED to ram scoring possessions through Scottie anymore, so hopefully now that we're pivoting to the idea of trying to win, we don't force it needlessly. And that should help tailor his possession distribution in a more optimal way, which might help him look a little better. A theme over his first four seasons is < 50% of his 2pts being assisted. He blows donkeys from 3, and I think that experiment should mostly end, but there are piles of ways we can reduce his volume and increase the passing support going into his shots, which should help a lot while accenting his D and passing as his inefficiency becomes less of an issue.

Scottie's probably going to be with us for a long time, and there are a bunch of ways in which that could go very well for us.

Yeah, I've been saying this is the problem with him is that there's nothing we can scale up with him on meaningful volume to improve things significantly. He's just not elite at anything on offense, he's barely above average at anything and below average at a lot of things.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, I've been saying this is the problem with him is that there's nothing we can scale up with him on meaningful volume to improve things significantly. He's just not elite at anything on offense, he's barely above average at anything and below average at a lot of things.

Yeah, exactly.

We shall see what comes next season. BI for 60+ games should meaningfully change the way we run our offense, and if we can be even top like 12 on D, that'll make a big difference as well on the balance of the season. We'll have a lot of options and, depending on how RJ, Quick and Gradey play, we should be able to try deploying some different arrangements on O.

[MEDIC]

But it's possible that Barnes has a complete meltdown next season. The ingredients are there for it to happen.

To an extent that doesn't exist for other players his age. He kinda sticks out as a guy who could either take a leap or also have a meltdown.

"Meltdown" doesn't feel like a thing for Barnes.

I suspect his largest concern is simply not advancing on offense, because he's so far behind where we need him to be in order to fill the role we keep asking of him.

More likely, though, is that we shape his role a little more intelligently and he ends up a pretty valuable player for us, leveraging the strengths everyone has known he's had since before he was drafted. Barnes is good; we just keep asking him to do more than he should.

That's the way I see it. He'll be better next season simply because there will be better players around him & he will have a more.appropriate role.

Even if he goes back to year 3.level.of play, he will be a very valuable player on the team.