ImageImageImage

2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III

Moderators: BullyKing, HartfordWhalers, sixers hoops, Foshan, Sixerscan

What should we do at #3?

Ace Bailey
18
21%
Tre Johnson
14
16%
V.J. Edgecombe
32
37%
Other
3
3%
Trade
20
23%
 
Total votes: 87

Black Mage
Head Coach
Posts: 6,071
And1: 5,728
Joined: Feb 24, 2017
       

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#321 » by Black Mage » Mon Jun 16, 2025 1:29 pm

CPops57 wrote:
OleSchool wrote:Kon stops and pulls up. Which is "fine" but Kon should've posterized that kid. He had a full head of steam but instead he stops and banks it in


Are dunks and layups worth a different number of points?


Imagine Kon getting a break-a-way like that and Lebron or a Lebron level athlete is on the court? Kon's getting a come from behind block 9-10 times b/c he runs like he's wearing cement shoes. Just b/c he made it in college against inferior players does not me he has a prayer of doing that in the NBA against top athletes.
User avatar
CPops57
RealGM
Posts: 15,408
And1: 103
Joined: Sep 04, 2001
Location: NYC

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#322 » by CPops57 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 1:40 pm

Black Mage wrote:1) We need to stop calling Tre and Kon elite "shooters." Tre and Kon are NOT elite shooters; they are elite 3 pt shooters. Kon shot just 40% from the mid-range; Tre shot 38%. Bailey shot 47% from mid-range. Kon can't do pull up shots, more on this in point 2.

2) Kon is absolute horsesh** as an on-ball shooter https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/1jvhjna/kon_shooting_breakdown_according_to_hoopexplorer/ - 14% on-ball pull up from 3? 13% PNR ballhander from 3? Kon is great in C&S; but, he literally can't shot the ball once its in his hands (might also explain why he constantly double pumps b/c he's resetting his body from a pull up form to a C&S form.

3) It's a fair argument that Ace may not have the right demeanor or IQ to make quick decisions; but I do think he grew in that area as season wore on and started making some quick and advanced reads leading to tight space passes.

4) Ace can drive, but this is the difference between Kon's highlights and Ace's. Kon drives and he's got no one waiting on him past his first defender. You watch Ace, even when he quickly attacks the closeout and blows past his man; there's always 1 and usually 2 more guys coming across cutting off the lane to the rim and he pulls up instead which again he was hitting at nearly 50%. I think with a better team around him you'd see Ace finishing more at the rim or trusting elite shooters like Maxey/McCain/PG for a kickout 3.



1) I'm not in the coaching huddle at Duke so this is only speculation. But Kneuppel's lower shooting volume from midrange, combined with the eye test of watching some Duke games seems to indicate that these midrange shots by Kon just weren't their gameplan when Flagg was playing. It was mostly drive to the rim and shoot 3s. Duke had a really polished team offense, and it seemed like only Flagg had the full-time green light to iso and deviate from that offensive game plan for the obvious reason of him being a generational talent.

2) We do have a small sample size of games where Flagg isn't playing. The result is that over the three games, Kon averaged 21.0 points per game on 48.6% field goal shooting, with 5.0 rebounds, 4.7 assists, and 1.3 steals per game. Not bad production for somebody with allegedly no on-ball ability and creation juice.

3) Every draftee has flaws in their offensive games, Kneuppel included. The difference is that Kneuppel's flaws are relatively minor in comparison, and fixing them involves mere refinement of existing skills. Banking on an elite 3 point shooter who can already handle to get better at a midrange game and shooting off the dribble seems like one of the safer bets imaginable. He's self-aware enough to call this out in an interview and point out that it's a good shot for him that he's working on. You can disagree if you want, but this is something that I'm betting on him improving significantly.
User avatar
stormi
General Manager
Posts: 8,785
And1: 9,158
Joined: Jun 04, 2019
Location: Kon FC Headquarters
     

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#323 » by stormi » Mon Jun 16, 2025 1:57 pm

sodmoraes wrote:Question for who wants to draft VJ. I know already why do you guys dont want Ace, but why do you prefer him than Tre? I know his athletic abilities are higher, he has more burst and can be a pretty good defensive player, but his offensive game is way more limited than Tre, and i dont know if he can improve it a lot.

In the other hand, we dont know if Tre can improve his driving game, so he can be limited to a shooter, while VJ drive game is way stronger. His defensive sucks too, but i just dont value defensive in guards that much. Anyways, since Tre scored well in the Combine, i think he can improve his driving game so it can be decent, and even if his defense doesnt improve he has a great skill already ( shooting), while i think the path to be an allstar seems harder for VJ, because he needs to improve alot his handle, dribble and shooting off the dribble.


I don't rate Tre's ancillary skills (passing, defense) and his slashing was rather unspectacular for someone who's utility rapidly falls off without the ball in his hands.

If you're looking at a guard to replicate Shai, outside of the mid-range jumper spam you need to be getting to the rim at will.

Fox at UK got to rim 203 times, finished &64%
Morant at Murray State got to the rim 264 times, finished &61%
John Wall at UK got to the rim 182 times, finished &64%
SGA at UK got to the rim 182 times, finished &59%

Tre got to the rim 97 times, finished &59%
VJ got to the rim 126 times, finished &60%
Harper got to the rim 170 times, finished &70%(!)

Basketball is simple, as an initiators there are three main components: shooting, passing, dribbling. Unless you're providing high utility in at least two of three, you're projecting out a low impact archetype.

Shai brings all three, Haliburton at Iowa showcased elite levels of passing and shooting.

The wingspan is nice, but Tre, to me looks another in the Cam Thomas / Alec Burks / Tre Mann / Jordan Clarkson / Tyler Herro family tree.

For the sake of VJ, I'm banking on the shooting indicators, the outlier athleticism, the defense, the FTr and the connective passing. Looks a more impactful basketball player.
User avatar
CPops57
RealGM
Posts: 15,408
And1: 103
Joined: Sep 04, 2001
Location: NYC

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#324 » by CPops57 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 1:57 pm

Black Mage wrote:Imagine Kon getting a break-a-way like that and Lebron or a Lebron level athlete is on the court? Kon's getting a come from behind block 9-10 times b/c he runs like he's wearing cement shoes. Just b/c he made it in college against inferior players does not me he has a prayer of doing that in the NBA against top athletes.


1) Yes, once in a while a Tayshaun Prince or a Lebron will make an amazing chase down block, but I think you're putting way too much emphasis on speed and athleticism stopping fast breaks as even slower players score in transition. Kneuppel is a crafty scorer. What do crafty scorers do? They rely on court awareness and timing for their guy to fly by them before laying it in. Or they use their body to shield the layup from the defender.

2) Personally, I think Kon will be great on the fast break. With his processing and basketball IQ and passing ability, I'd say he has the chance to be a helluva outlet passer. He's an unselfish player that is willing to get physical, so I can see him running some decoy actions and drag screens, which is exactly what a lot of teams do with slower players. As a ball handler, I can see him making a lot of smart decisions in transition. And obviously, in today's NBA, the slowest guy is sometimes the most dangerous as a trailing shooter.
User avatar
CPops57
RealGM
Posts: 15,408
And1: 103
Joined: Sep 04, 2001
Location: NYC

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#325 » by CPops57 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 2:10 pm

As a followup to the point about transition offense: here are some prospects TS% in transition according to https://databallr.com

Cooper Flagg: 83.1%
Jeremiah Fears: 70.5%
Kon Kneuppel: 70.2%
VJ Edgecombe: 69.7%
Tre Johnson: 68.9%
Dylan Harper: 67.2%
Ace Bailey: 65.0%
Iscull
Rookie
Posts: 1,178
And1: 554
Joined: Jul 05, 2012
     

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#326 » by Iscull » Mon Jun 16, 2025 2:38 pm

CPops57 wrote:As a followup to the point about transition offense: here are some prospects TS% in transition according to https://databallr.com

Cooper Flagg: 83.1%
Jeremiah Fears: 70.5%
Kon Kneuppel: 70.2%
VJ Edgecombe: 69.7%
Tre Johnson: 68.9%
Dylan Harper: 67.2%
Ace Bailey: 65.0%


Thanks for sharing! I'm nerding out over the draft profiles.
OleSchool
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,980
And1: 1,466
Joined: Nov 22, 2013
Location: Behind you, no seriously turn around
       

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#327 » by OleSchool » Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:02 pm

CPops57 wrote:
OleSchool wrote:Kon stops and pulls up. Which is "fine" but Kon should've posterized that kid. He had a full head of steam but instead he stops and banks it in


Are dunks and layups worth a different number of points?


No absolutely not and you're right looking at it as "well a 2pt shot is a 2 point shot". However, it does show some type of lessen athletic ability.

I not totally ripping Kon. There were some pretty good plays in the vids. I particularly like when the defense is trying to close out on him at the 3pt line and Kon blows by them taking it to the rack. So there's some good stuff there.

The plays that have me question his athletic ability is when he actually gets into the lane with the big boys it's like he's kinda lost? And does this double pump fake to try and get the defender to jump. Or does a 6ft fade away.

I mean, YES he does score 2points but it looks kinda choppy?

I think he'd be much better served hitting a mid range rather than continue taking it to the hole
NYSixersFan wrote:quite simply, If I were GM, We would have a good young playoff team right now; with cap flexibility going forward


NYSixersFan wrote:I'D BE more then happy to debate you or anyone else on specifics


NYSixersFan wrote:How can I give you specifics? I'm not talking to other GM's
OleSchool
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,980
And1: 1,466
Joined: Nov 22, 2013
Location: Behind you, no seriously turn around
       

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#328 » by OleSchool » Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:06 pm

CPops57 wrote:
Black Mage wrote:Imagine Kon getting a break-a-way like that and Lebron or a Lebron level athlete is on the court? Kon's getting a come from behind block 9-10 times b/c he runs like he's wearing cement shoes. Just b/c he made it in college against inferior players does not me he has a prayer of doing that in the NBA against top athletes.


1) Yes, once in a while a Tayshaun Prince or a Lebron will make an amazing chase down block, but I think you're putting way too much emphasis on speed and athleticism stopping fast breaks as even slower players score in transition. Kneuppel is a crafty scorer. What do crafty scorers do? They rely on court awareness and timing for their guy to fly by them before laying it in. Or they use their body to shield the layup from the defender.

2) Personally, I think Kon will be great on the fast break. With his processing and basketball IQ and passing ability, I'd say he has the chance to be a helluva outlet passer. He's an unselfish player that is willing to get physical, so I can see him running some decoy actions and drag screens, which is exactly what a lot of teams do with slower players. As a ball handler, I can see him making a lot of smart decisions in transition. And obviously, in today's NBA, the slowest guy is sometimes the most dangerous as a trailing shooter.


Well Kon is 3rd on my board for the SIXERS. So I see some great qualities in there.

VJ, Kasper, Kon, Bailey, Tre, Harper
NYSixersFan wrote:quite simply, If I were GM, We would have a good young playoff team right now; with cap flexibility going forward


NYSixersFan wrote:I'D BE more then happy to debate you or anyone else on specifics


NYSixersFan wrote:How can I give you specifics? I'm not talking to other GM's
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 65,893
And1: 26,881
Joined: Jun 06, 2002

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#329 » by 76ciology » Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:38 pm

He sounds very knowledgeable in his interview in Bodner’s podcast

[x]
Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=bJcUtOCSwzTqqyZgysWpbQ[/x]
There’s never been a time in history when we look back and say that the people who were censoring free speech were the good guys.
Redemption76
Freshman
Posts: 55
And1: 38
Joined: Oct 31, 2019

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#330 » by Redemption76 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:50 pm

He also thinks Kon is a much better prospect than Ace Bailey. He is clueless and a Yinzer. And the Athletic is dead.

Other than that, I value his opinion. Ha.
Jailblazers7
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,387
And1: 6,156
Joined: Oct 23, 2017
     

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#331 » by Jailblazers7 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:54 pm

Although I like VJ a lot I’d be happy to make Charlotte pay a tax to move up one spot. What’s the realistic price for moving up? A future first and one of their seconds this year?
User avatar
Stanford
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 53,606
And1: 18,856
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Location: Parts Unknown
   

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#332 » by Stanford » Mon Jun 16, 2025 3:55 pm

Redemption76 wrote:He also thinks Kon is a much better prospect than Ace Bailey.


So he's correct. I should be listening to this guy's podcast.
User avatar
CPops57
RealGM
Posts: 15,408
And1: 103
Joined: Sep 04, 2001
Location: NYC

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#333 » by CPops57 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:00 pm

Redemption76 wrote: Yinzer.


Let's leave race out of it. They're people too.
Jailblazers7
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,387
And1: 6,156
Joined: Oct 23, 2017
     

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#334 » by Jailblazers7 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:02 pm

What if we pulled off something a little more interesting for a draft night trade:

Sixers get #2

Charlotte gets #3

Spurs get #4 + 2027 Dallas FRP top 2 protected (via CHA) + 2028 Sixers FRP top 5 protected

Something along those lines where we use Charlotte to sweeten the pot for a move up to 2 so we can keep the Clippers pick.

Sixers get Harper, Hornets get VJ, and Spurs get Tre, Kon, or Ace depending on their preference.
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 65,893
And1: 26,881
Joined: Jun 06, 2002

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#335 » by 76ciology » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:10 pm

Sam Vecenie on Tre Johnson



He wants to win. Like he is a he's a real like this guy is a crazy, crazy worker. Like, you know, one of the guys I've gotten in this class where it's like, no, like if you're going to bet on somebody to improve, bet on Tre Johnson because he's not going to quit working.

That's the other thing like, you know, I'm sure you guys watching the tape like Texas just didn't do anything for him off the ball. Like this dude is a lethal shooter. Like I watched him go through a workout in Santa Barbara and he sprinted off of actions for like an hour.

This dude did not get tired. He did not ever see like any sort of drop in terms of like the shot stopping falling. Like I told him after the workout, I was like, that was one of the most impressive workouts I've ever seen from a teenage shooter. This dude just goes and he goes hard and he is very well conditioned. And like he is all about hoops.

Like that's why I like when people bring up the defense, I'm like, yeah, like I think he is more focused on scoring right now. Like I think he wants to like maximize what he is as a scorer, it feels like to me.

But I think he'll figure it out. Like I think he wants to win so bad that like he'll eventually learn that like, OK, I can't just do this one way. Like I got to go both ways on this.
There’s never been a time in history when we look back and say that the people who were censoring free speech were the good guys.
Negrodamus
RealGM
Posts: 26,515
And1: 17,072
Joined: Aug 05, 2004

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#336 » by Negrodamus » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:13 pm

There are many differences between the two, but I do get vibes of Kawhi from SDSU from VJ in that he does all the little things to help the team. If you watch full games of him, he grabs play extending o-rebs and does a solid job of boxing out guys on d-rebs. He has stretches where he locks in and hounds guys on defense. Different positions but two guys who do the less talked about things in order to win.
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 65,893
And1: 26,881
Joined: Jun 06, 2002

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#337 » by 76ciology » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:26 pm

Negrodamus wrote:There are many differences between the two, but I do get vibes of Kawhi from SDSU from VJ in that he does all the little things to help the team. If you watch full games of him, he grabs play extending o-rebs and does a solid job of boxing out guys on d-rebs. He has stretches where he locks in and hounds guys on defense. Different positions but two guys who do the less talked about things in order to win.


Not hard

[x]
Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=bJcUtOCSwzTqqyZgysWpbQ[/x]
There’s never been a time in history when we look back and say that the people who were censoring free speech were the good guys.
User avatar
Stanford
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 53,606
And1: 18,856
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Location: Parts Unknown
   

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#338 » by Stanford » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:29 pm

76ciology wrote:Sam Vecenie on Tre Johnson



He wants to win. Like he is a he's a real like this guy is a crazy, crazy worker. Like, you know, one of the guys I've gotten in this class where it's like, no, like if you're going to bet on somebody to improve, bet on Tre Johnson because he's not going to quit working.

That's the other thing like, you know, I'm sure you guys watching the tape like Texas just didn't do anything for him off the ball. Like this dude is a lethal shooter. Like I watched him go through a workout in Santa Barbara and he sprinted off of actions for like an hour.

This dude did not get tired. He did not ever see like any sort of drop in terms of like the shot stopping falling. Like I told him after the workout, I was like, that was one of the most impressive workouts I've ever seen from a teenage shooter. This dude just goes and he goes hard and he is very well conditioned. And like he is all about hoops.

Like that's why I like when people bring up the defense, I'm like, yeah, like I think he is more focused on scoring right now. Like I think he wants to like maximize what he is as a scorer, it feels like to me.

But I think he'll figure it out. Like I think he wants to win so bad that like he'll eventually learn that like, OK, I can't just do this one way. Like I got to go both ways on this.


Sam Vecenie is the Ace Bailey of speakers.
Iverson Armband
Veteran
Posts: 2,927
And1: 2,465
Joined: Nov 26, 2020
 

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#339 » by Iverson Armband » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:36 pm

76ciology wrote:Sam Vecenie on Tre Johnson



He wants to win. Like he is a he's a real like this guy is a crazy, crazy worker. Like, you know, one of the guys I've gotten in this class where it's like, no, like if you're going to bet on somebody to improve, bet on Tre Johnson because he's not going to quit working.

That's the other thing like, you know, I'm sure you guys watching the tape like Texas just didn't do anything for him off the ball. Like this dude is a lethal shooter. Like I watched him go through a workout in Santa Barbara and he sprinted off of actions for like an hour.

This dude did not get tired. He did not ever see like any sort of drop in terms of like the shot stopping falling. Like I told him after the workout, I was like, that was one of the most impressive workouts I've ever seen from a teenage shooter. This dude just goes and he goes hard and he is very well conditioned. And like he is all about hoops.

Like that's why I like when people bring up the defense, I'm like, yeah, like I think he is more focused on scoring right now. Like I think he wants to like maximize what he is as a scorer, it feels like to me.

But I think he'll figure it out. Like I think he wants to win so bad that like he'll eventually learn that like, OK, I can't just do this one way. Like I got to go both ways on this.

Ok. Now I like Vecenie again.
always a jump shot away.
MVP1992
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,464
And1: 830
Joined: Dec 04, 2018

Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#340 » by MVP1992 » Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:43 pm

Stanford wrote:
76ciology wrote:Sam Vecenie on Tre Johnson



He wants to win. Like DAWG he is a he's a real like DAWG this guy is a crazy, crazy worker. Like DAWG, you know, one of the guys I've gotten in this class where it's like DAWG, no, like DAWG if you're going to bet on somebody to improve, bet on Tre Johnson because he's not going to quit working.

That's the other thing like DAWG, you know, I'm sure you guys watching the tape like Texas just didn't do anything for him off the ball. Like DAWG this dude is a lethal shooter. Like DAWG I watched him go through a workout in Santa Barbara and he sprinted off of actions for like an hour.

This dude did not get tired. He did not ever see like DAWG any sort of drop in terms of like DAWG the shot stopping falling. Like DAWG I told him after the workout, I was like DAWG, that was one of the most impressive workouts I've ever seen from a teenage shooter. This dude just goes and he goes hard and he is very well conditioned. And like DAWG he is all about hoops.

Like DAWG that's why I like when people bring up the defense, I'm like DAWG, yeah, like DAWG I think he is more focused on scoring right now. Like DAWG I think he wants to like DAWG maximize what he is as a scorer, it feels like to me.

But I think he'll figure it out. Like DAWG I think he wants to win so bad that like DAWG he'll eventually learn that like DAWG, OK, I can't just do this one way. Like DAWG I got to go both ways on this.


Sam Vecenie is the Ace Bailey of speakers.


Just put an Ace Bailey filter over it.

Return to Philadelphia 76ers