Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF

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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#61 » by Djoker » Mon Jul 7, 2025 3:14 pm

tsherkin wrote:Because we're talking about MJ and the playoffs...



Yea I watched this. It's interesting that Payton didn't do all that well guarding MJ at all. That was my impression watching the series as well. The Sonics as a team were good at closing off the paint and making MJ shoot jumpers and he was just off shooting those last three games.
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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#62 » by tsherkin » Mon Jul 7, 2025 3:30 pm

Djoker wrote:Yea I watched this. It's interesting that Payton didn't do all that well guarding MJ at all. That was my impression watching the series as well. The Sonics as a team were good at closing off the paint and making MJ shoot jumpers and he was just off shooting those last three games.


He was shorter and less athletic. Jordan could literally just jump over him for the clean look. They did shade him and close off the paint, and he didn't have the same quickness he did in his 20s, nor as much time spent in transition, so you could see the tail-off in his efficacy. Same same with the Knicks, same same with the Jazz. But man, he did put on a masterclass in screen use, guard post and the like.
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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#63 » by Djoker » Mon Jul 7, 2025 10:58 pm

There is this infamous photo from Thinking Basketball that has been circulating quite a bit on here as well as on social media.

Image

People post it to show how Jordan's 5-year peak isn't THAT good. The thing is... those 5-year stretches by Robinson, Shaq and Lebron are definitely not their peaks but simply their best ON-OFF stretches. Curry's 5-year peak is spot on but I don't know how Ben is getting above +12 ON court for 2015-19 Curry. I'm getting about +10.1... Might be filtering injured games or applying some kind of filter?!?

Anyways, I created a similar graph but the best 5-year stretches have to come within (at least arguable) peak years.

Image

And here is the raw data:

Spoiler:
Player ON Net OFF Net ON Min OFF Min ON/48 OFF/48 ON-OFF/48
1989-1993 Jordan 615 -110 3787 616 7.8 -8.6 16.4
2012-2016 Lebron 684 -77 4372 796 7.5 -4.6 12.2
2015-2019 Curry 725 58 3442 1633 10.1 1.7 8.4
1999-2003 Shaq 447 -137 3248 516 6.6 -12.7 19.4
2001-2005 Duncan 392 -104 3198 657 5.9 -7.6 13.5
2021-2025 Jokic 68 -90 2350 603 1.4 -7.2 8.6
2019-2023 Giannis 333 -79 2129 1021 7.5 -3.7 11.2
2006-2010 Kobe Bryant 250 -49 3256 561 3.7 -4.2 7.9
2014-2018 Kevin Durant 492 27 2881 749 8.2 1.7 6.5
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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#64 » by eminence » Wed Jul 9, 2025 2:14 pm

Djoker wrote:.


Hey Djoker, I was curious if you had Pippens '96 cumulative PO +/-. Wanted to add him to the list of +1000 full season guys since '94.

1. '17 Curry +1260
2. '16 Dray +1210
3. '96 MJ 1186
4. '25 SGA +1084
5. '15 Curry +1083
6. '16 Curry +1070
7. '17 Dray +1047
8. '15 Dray +1031

'96 Pippen +899 RS + ??? PO
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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#65 » by Djoker » Wed Jul 9, 2025 2:37 pm

eminence wrote:
Djoker wrote:.


Hey Djoker, I was curious if you had Pippens '96 cumulative PO +/-. Wanted to add him to the list of +1000 full season guys since '94.

1. '17 Curry +1260
2. '16 Dray +1210
3. '96 MJ 1186
4. '25 SGA +1084
5. '15 Curry +1083
6. '16 Curry +1070
7. '17 Dray +1047
8. '15 Dray +1031

'96 Pippen +899 RS + ??? PO


Unfortunately I don't have Pippen data for the playoffs.
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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#66 » by eminence » Wed Jul 9, 2025 2:48 pm

Djoker wrote:
eminence wrote:
Djoker wrote:.


Hey Djoker, I was curious if you had Pippens '96 cumulative PO +/-. Wanted to add him to the list of +1000 full season guys since '94.

1. '17 Curry +1260
2. '16 Dray +1210
3. '96 MJ 1186
4. '25 SGA +1084
5. '15 Curry +1083
6. '16 Curry +1070
7. '17 Dray +1047
8. '15 Dray +1031

'96 Pippen +899 RS + ??? PO


Unfortunately I don't have Pippen data for the playoffs.


Alas, he’ll have to stay the unranked unofficial 9th member (MJ is unofficial too).
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Re: Offensive GOAT - Michael Jordan Playoff ON-OFF 

Post#67 » by homecourtloss » Wed Jul 9, 2025 4:14 pm

Djoker wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Because we're talking about MJ and the playoffs...


Yea I watched this. It's interesting that Payton didn't do all that well guarding MJ at all. That was my impression watching the series as well. The Sonics as a team were good at closing off the paint and making MJ shoot jumpers and he was just off shooting those last three games.


Payton did a decent job defending him, especially in the post and a few others helped out in that regard, but it seemed to me like Jordan was still taking the shots that he wanted, i.e., rising up in the post or on the perimeter, even though they seemed a little bit hurried, and he seemed to lack the same type of conviction going into those shots. Mostly, it seemed like it was the Sonics and their good perimeter defense limiting anything easy. To be honest with you there were a lot of perimeter and away from the ball fouls, which I found quite true about a lot of of the 90s (and 80s), regardless of who was playing.

I tracked all the plays that got Jordan FTs and when you look at it, his scoring was boosted by a very, very generous whistle. It’s already meh shooting. Efficiency could have looked a lot a lot worse . The only game I didn’t track game five in which he only shot 5 FTs.

Game 1

[url][/url]

25:00 video, six minutes left in the 2nd, Hawkins put hands on Jordan and it's called foul on floor.
43:00 video, 7:35 reach in foul on perimeter on floor
55:00 Under 2:00, foul, 2 FTs off of a back screen rim run, Bill Walton talks about a push off
57:10 under 2:00 foul at the basket, 2fts
59:00 flagrant foul on Frank Brickowski on Rodman, then two technicals, Jordan takes 2 FTs.
1:01.15, 1:13 left in the second quarter,  touch foul called, Jordan takes 2 FTs 
1:06 discussion about Seattle’s zone defense, according to Phil Jackson
2:02,.10, 1 minute left in the game, weak foul on a paint jumper, 2 FTs 

Game 2 



31:40, 1:15 left in 1st quarter, bump out by three point line, sonics in penalty, 2 fts
34:20, 15 seconds left in 1st quarter, illegal defense, 1 FT
53:40, 4:30 left in 2nd qyarter, jordan makes baseline move, foul on floor, sonics over the limit, 2 FTs
1:18.40, 10 minutes left in 3rd, illegal defense, 1 ft 
1:20.20, 9 minutes left reach in foul on perimeter
1:22, 8:15 min left in third, post move towards basket grab, 2 fts
1:44, 10:30 left in 4th, Jordan with baseline line move, phantom foul, 2 fts
1:58.30, 3:58 left in the 4th, Jordan drive, looked like a good part of the ball by Kemp, 2 fts
2:05.58, 1:31 left in 4th, offensive rebound by Jordan, foul on Hawkins, 2 fts, hard to see as video cut out)
2:07.30, 30 seconds left in 4th, drive to basket, 2 fts

Game 3[

https://www.facebook.com/Michael.J0rdan/videos/1996-nba-finals-game-3-seattle-supersonics-vs-chicago-bulls/1668979053245025/

10:30, 5 minutes left in the first quarter, 15 foot fadeaway touch foul, 2fts
18:45, 10 minutes left in the second quarter, grabbing foul on Gary Payton, on the floor, no FTs 
30:30, 4:30 left in second quarter, drive to the basket, weak bump foul, 2 FTs 
31:50, 3:35 left in the second quarter, defensive rebound foul, sonics over the limit, two FTs
38:30, :50 left in the second quarter, long inbounds pass, bumped on the catch, 2fts
1:05.20, 11 minutes left in the fourth quarter, 20 foot pull up touch phantom foul, 1ft
1:13.30, 5:50 left in 4th, touch foul out on the perimeter, sonics in the penalty, 2 FTs

Game 4



10:26 perimeter touch foul on Pippen on Gary Payton

11:30, 5:00 left in first quarter Gary Payton touch foul on Jordan in the post away from the ball, 5 minutes left in the first quarter

13:38, 3:55 left in the first quarter Jordan attacked the basket from the post. Brickowski makes contact, but looks like he's going straight up and bump him, 2 free throws

32:26, 6:13 left in the second quarter, touch, foul on Gary Payton defending Jordan in the post away from the ball

33:51 under 5:50 in the quarter, offensive foul on Jordan looks like a push off, but not really much contact

41:46, under 24 seconds, absolute touch foul of minimal contact out on the perimeter

51:00, nine minutes left in the third-quarter, technical fell on Frank Bukowski after Dennis Rodman shenanigans, one free throw

53:20, 8:30+ left in the third quarter, technical foul on Detlef Schrempf, one free throw

1:02, 4:40 left in the third-quarter, Jordan gets an and-1 on a fast break, one free throw

1:05, 3:50 left in the third-quarter, reach in foul on the perimeter. Looks like all ball by David Wingate, two free throws.

1:09, 1:50 left in the third quarter, rtechnical foul on David winger , one free throw

1:09, 1:50 left in the third quarter, away from the ball foul in the post, two free throws

1:22, 8:30 left in the fourth quarter, touch, fell on the perimeter, called a pushing foul

1:23.36, 7:45left in the fourth, touch foul looks like a phantom foul in the post, an and-1, one free throw

1:29.2, 5 minutes left in the fourth quarter, Jordan gets an offensive rebound and there's a touch file called on Gary Payton, slight push in the back, 2 free throws

Game 6



18:00, 8:00 left in 1st, drive and bump, 2fts 
25:45, 3:25 left in 1st, 20 ft fadeaway touch foul, 2fts
35:40, 11:00 left in 2nd qtr, drive to basket, looked like Jordan jumped into defender, 2fts 
59:30, 5 seconds left in 2nd, touch foul on perimeter and Sonics in penalty, 2fts
1:07.30, 8:08 left in third, touch foul on perimeter jumper, 2fts 
1:27.45, 10 minutes left in 4th, attacks basket, 2fts 
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