Giannis Thread - "The Finals are different, I hope to be back soon with the Bucks"

[jakecronus8]

I'll be that guy and ask, if Giannis had an identical career as a Laker or Knick, where do the "experts" put him all time?

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I'll be that guy and ask, if Giannis had an identical career as a Laker or Knick, where do the "experts" put him all time?

Identical career/resume, probably the same. Difference is he would have gotten a few more all-NBA side kicks. Pretty much all of the Top 15 guys had another top 25 guy. Giannis with 2 additional rings is a top 12 player for sure instead of 17-24 range.

Jordan/Pippen
Magic/Kareem
Lebron/Wade/AD/Ky
Curry/KD
Shaq/Wade/Kobe
Kobe/Shaq/Gasol
Russell (different league and I'm a bit of a Bill Russell-truther; what were there like 8 teams?)
Wilt/West
Duncan/Robinson
Bird/McHale

[PG Graveyard]

I'll be that guy and ask, if Giannis had an identical career as a Laker or Knick, where do the "experts" put him all time?

If he ever gets traded he will immediately move up 10 spots for reasons.

[emunney]

Yeah, we have a good 6-year, prime MVP level play type run of Giannis now to know that guys like KD, both Malones, Dirk, Barkley, and any of the offense-first guys outside of Magic/Jokic/Oscar (offensive GOAT tier) just don't have a serious case at being a better or more impactful player than a guy who's one of the greatest scorers ever combined with DPOTY defensive impact.

The KD stuff is absolutely baffling. It's like the media felt bad that he got so much **** for joining Golden State, that they've over corrected to an even more extreme and comical degree. His resume on paper (one MVP, two titles, 6x All-NBA 1st teams) isn't even worthy of Top-15 credentials, and that's before we even contextualize how he "earned" those two rings. Dude is tracking to be the most prolific, "unearned legacy credit" superstar of all-time, and that's saying something when guys like Pippen and Isaiah Thomas are Top-30 in both these lists...

I hate Isaiah Thomas with red hot passion. But he led two title teams and was a legit top 2 PG of his generation. Im not sure a lot of people over rate him in the sense I’ve never heard anyone put him in an all time top 30. I certainly don’t include him on any top 30 list. But he was the best PG in the east for a decade.

Pippen is an interesting discussion. I think he was a top ten in the league guy from 92-98, perhaps even as high as 4-5. He deserved mvp the first year MJ retired, but the media didn’t really know what to do with the team’s success without MJ. He was the best wing defender in his era, could score inside and out, and was an amazing passer. Six rings (but usually as the second best player on the court). I don’t consider him all time top 30. Id start thinking about him around 30, between 30 and 50 for sure, he was so versatile.

Another factor is those two are probably among the all time pricks in league history. So that doesn’t belp their causes.

I definitely agree Durant is not belonging in any top 30 all time list. I like his game, but he is a little Pippen-ish in that he was never the top player on a title team. And both are salty AF

I think Durant has a case for being the best player on his title teams. I'm not going to prosecute it even if I'm sympathetic to the argument. I think the fact that he joined a 73 win team as a free agent, though, definitely discounts those rings for him in a way that, oddly or not, it doesn't for Steph.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I think Durant has a case for being the best player on his title teams. I'm not going to prosecute it even if I'm sympathetic to the argument. I think the fact that he joined a 73 win team as a free agent, though, definitely discounts those rings for him in a way that, oddly or not, it doesn't for Steph.

I think you can discount the rings for Curry, as well. The difference is Curry has 2 other Rings as the best player and 2 MVPs. I really dont get why KD is usually above Steph in these rankings when the counting stats are close enough and Curry has been more impactful.

[Licensed to Il]

I realize this reply is not airtight logic, but I perceive most people would draft Steph over Durant, if given a rookie version of each, and knowing all we know. Which is telling in the sense that Durant has more physical tools.

They certainly are both among the top five shooters, and its hard to downgrade either in any offensive category.

[emunney]

I realize this reply is not airtight logic, but I perceive most people would draft Steph over Durant, if given a rookie version of each, and knowing all we know. Which is telling in the sense that Durant has more physical tools.

They certainly are both among the top five shooters, and its hard to downgrade either in any offensive category.

I think you're probably right, and I probably would too. It might not be fair, but in a draft knowing all we now know, one of the things we now know is that KD's about to lace 'em up for his 5th franchise.

[BigO]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

Hold up ..... Are you saying Oscar and Jerry are 2 of the Top 6 players of all time?

[Sigra]

Karl Malone > Giannis

Sorry

[AussieBuck]

Karl Malone > Giannis

Sorry

I'm sorry you're this lonely.

You know we're a community here, we can talk without you provoking it with something stupid right ?

[jakecronus8]

Karl Malone > Giannis

Sorry

You should be. This is embarrassing.

[AussieBuck]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

Hold up ..... Are you saying Oscar and Jerry are 2 of the Top 6 players of all time?

I reckon you can make a case that West is the best or near enough best guard ever. Top 6 can be done. Oscar I dunno.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

Hold up ..... Are you saying Oscar and Jerry are 2 of the Top 6 players of all time?

I reckon you can make a case that West is the best or near enough best guard ever. Top 6 can be done. Oscar I dunno.

Yeah, it becomes a math problem. I assume if you value Oscar and Jerry, I assume you also value Kareem, Russell, Wilt who were better in the same era? MJ, LBJ getting squeezed?

[BigO]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

Hold up ..... Are you saying Oscar and Jerry are 2 of the Top 6 players of all time?

Absolutely. Of all the players I have seen.

[paulpressey25]

These all-time lists are always great conversation fodder. And naturally recency bias comes into play.

You can only go up against the guys and teams of your era. The question is how much you excelled over your peers during said era.

In the case of Giannis, the guys ahead of him all played out their full careers (save for Jokic), so I'm assuming he'll climb the ranks in the years ahead.

[BigO]

Hold up ..... Are you saying Oscar and Jerry are 2 of the Top 6 players of all time?

I reckon you can make a case that West is the best or near enough best guard ever. Top 6 can be done. Oscar I dunno.

Yeah, it becomes a math problem. I assume if you value Oscar and Jerry, I assume you also value Kareem, Russell, Wilt who were better in the same era? MJ, LBJ getting squeezed?

Definitely tough to make a top 5. I value Kareem and Russell more than Wilt. It's hard to keep Lebron and Jordan off any list.

I love two way players who can shoot and for some reason I am biased against centers. Here's my 7:

Bird
Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Bill Walton- the healthy one who unfortunately was only healthy for a few years.
West
Robertson

If I have to cut down to 5, then I take off Walton and Bird.

Big O never had the teammates that the others had. I watched him in college and even a little in high school.

[Licensed to Il]

While I'm too young to have watched Jerry West, and I don't know how to get watchable copies of his games, I have heard enough former players and oldheads talk about him in reverential tones that I find it plausible he's a top ten all time NBA player. He certainly demonstrated a great basketball mind as an executive. The guys I've heard from said he was a fearless, icy killer as a player.

[Ron Swanson]

Giannis' career arc so far is basically "what if KG actually won in Minnesota?" The more years we see him drop these casual 30/11/6 stat lines while somehow getting snubbed from All-Defense teams (despite getting DPOTY votes every year), the more I'm becoming convinced that he might be the most under-appreciated/dis-respected superstar ever. PP's explanation is probably the right one though. His career isn't close to done yet so they feel the need to handicap him for the time being in these all-time lists. I'm just saying it's a stupid rationale if that's the case. It's about "who was the better/more dominant player?", not "who was a good/great player for the longest?"

[emunney]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/25223594-brs-top-100-nba-players-all-time-ranked (Giannis - 24)
https://hoopshype.com/lists/79-greatest-nba-players-ever-hoopshype-list/ (Giannis - 22; 2024 - 22, 2023 - 22, 2022 - 22, 2021 - 24)

As a homer, seems kind of low. Based on hardware, I think Giannis needs to be above Wade, Elgin, Dr. J (NBA only), and will pass Dirk, KG, West with longevity (He will be Top 40 scoring, Top 50 Rebounding after next year).

I think he is Top 20 right now, realistically ending 18-20 (assuming Jokic or Wemby passes him); but could pass Malone/Malone/Oscar with another ring for 15th AT as a ceiling.

Dirk is way too high.