2001 Lakers V 1996 Bulls but with Peak Kobe

[HomoSapien]

96 shaq was not 01 shaq.

96 shaq put up 27 and 11 though.

Meanwhile D. Scott and Anderson shot 6 for 34 on threes and the team shot 24%.

Stop with your nonsense. ‘96 Shaq averaged two fewer points and just as many rebounds as ‘01 Shaq. In fact, 2 of his 3 best scoring average years came in his 2nd and 3rd seasons. 2001 was his 9th season. Just because he won his first title in 2001 doesn’t mean it was the best version of Shaq - it was just the best team he was on up to that point.

reality is nonsense, got it. The jordan cult is so strange.

I don't get the point of dragging down a discussion with disenguity. 2001 Shaq was the better, wiser Shaq. But 96 Shaq wasn't far behind, was still an MVP-caliber player, a year removed from a finals run, and was at his athletic peak. I always roll my eyes when posters bring up the argument that the Bulls didn't go through elite centers. In the entire history of the NBA, there isn't exactly a giant list of centers better than Shaq on the Magic. He was downright terrifying and dominant. Ewing is a top 50 player, and frankly, Alonzo Mourning gets overlooked too.

[HomoSapien]

Pippen to me is a non factor if he's guarding Kobe in the NBA Finals. Jordan would be on Kobe anyways.

Why would Pippen be a non-factor? In 2000, an old post-back surgery Pippen averaged 15 ppg, 9rpg, 4 apg, 2.6 spg, and a block in the WCF. Kobe averaged 20, 5, and 5 on 44% shooting. Kobe averaged 8.5 points below his season average in that series, whereas Pippen outdid his regular-season numbers.

The previous season with the Rockets, Pippen averaged 18.3 ppg, 12 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg, and 0.8 bpg against Kobe and the Lakers in the playoffs. Kobe averaged 18.3 ppg on 41% shooting. Again, Kobe's scoring was down from his regular season (this time 4 ppg) and Pippen's was up.

There's no evidence of him being a non-factor against Kobe. If anything, it's quite the opposite

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Showtime 80]

Share the same sentiment

I absolutely do this in 2k games where you can add players from older dynasty teams and stuff, just to enjoy a little of what it might have been like.

C: Shaq, Campbell
PF: Horry, Blount
SF: Fox, Bryant
SG: Jones, Barry
PG: Magic, Fisher

Right? And Magic was well capable of hitting the 3 at that point, so he had his own contemporary spacing, the ability to play the 4 (and indeed, that was defensively the more appropriate position for him at that stage). Probably couldn't have given you more than 30 mpg or so prior to the playoffs, but man... ooooh. Imagine the shooters feasting off of Magic, and the way Shaq and Eddie would have thrived... And Magic himself, wheeling and dealing in the post.

Too sweet, man.

I got one better, Magic on the fast break with Eddie and Kobe on the wings

Like you mentioned people forget the unreal vision Magic had in the half court sets specially during a time with crowded paints where his ability to thread the needle to others for easy layups/dunks was even more impressive. For this ability the player that suffered the most from his premature retirement in my opinion was Elden Campbell, go watch some of his highlights in the 1990-91 season up to the McDonald’s championship in the summer time and you can see Magic slowly unlocking him for the easiest looks down low and Elden tearing the rim down with a lot of sweet back door lobs too as he had great hands and a great feel around the rim. I have no doubt he would’ve been an all star/all nba player had Magic never retired and played for 5/6 more seasons.

The 1998 Finals is the most watched basketball series of all time with the Bulls against the Jazz, can you imagine the numbers a Bulls/Lakers MJ/Magic Finals would’ve gotten?

[Showtime 80]

Kobe had problems with bigger guards when he was younger. But peak Kobe (2003-2008) got stronger and was able to handle the bigger guards who could post up. He wouldn't have problems guarding Mike, espeically 96 Mike who was step slower then early 90s Mike. MJ would still get his since he is MJ. But it isn't one of those situations where Kobe would be helpless.

As for Scottie, Kobe is going to win that matchup more often then not.

No, he’s not. Again, against far worse defenders he’s shot under 41% in 4/7 finals he’s been. Kobe is the furthest thing from an efficient player and you out him up against Pippen’s length and the Bulls gladly take Kobe shooting an abysmal percentage which he did quite often in the finals. Shaq was always going to be the bigger issue in that hypothetical matchup.

Don’t forget about the 2004 Finals against Detroit where Kobe shot a horrific 38% from the field.

To me that 2004 Finals is the biggest indictment against Kobe’s legacy, it was as if he said to himself “If we don’t win by me winning the Finals MVP I don’t give a **** what happens” and boy it was a debacle, some of the lowest IQ and least self aware basketball I’ve ever seen from a supposed star player, James Harden/Russell Westbrick type basketball!

In my opinion this is where coming straight from high school hurt Kobe throughout his whole career in that he always kept that gunslinger/knucklehead side of him which could creep up at any time and by default dumbed down a lot of his game at certain moments thus becoming easier to neutralize and giving him some horrific stat lines at numerous times in crucial games.

He had the tools to be better than he has but he stuck too much to the “swing big, miss big” attitude which was entertaining but frustrating at the same time.

[CodeBreaker]

2001 Lakers. Peak Shaq and Peak Kobe would just be too much

[HMFFL]

Prime Pippen was on par as a defender with Kahwi's best years if not better. MJ was not far off his level. Not sure what you're on about Pip being overhyped. Him and MJ paired are probably the best all time perimiter defensive duo in their peak years.

I said "can be overhyped" which you seem to be doing. Pippen had mental lapse at time when it mattered. Jordan had to manage the roster just as much as Phil did.

Pippen to me is a non factor if he's guarding Kobe in the NBA Finals. Jordan would be on Kobe anyways.

The irony in you calling a player overhyped and acting like Kobe is the most unstoppable force in NBA History.

Kobe had MORE THAN HALF of his finals appearances shooting a pathetic sub 41% but yes, he would “eat Pippen alive” just wtf man good lord

I never said Kobe was all of that, you did, but word it as you want. Your brain seems to be playing mind games with you.

Speaking of the mind and mental state of players.

Yeah, give me Kobe. Much more talented than Scottie, more mentally tough, and Kobe has a better IQ for the game.

[tsherkin]

I got one better, Magic on the fast break with Eddie and Kobe on the wings

Indeed. Full easy mode.

The 1998 Finals is the most watched basketball series of all time with the Bulls against the Jazz, can you imagine the numbers a Bulls/Lakers MJ/Magic Finals would’ve gotten?

Would have been absolutely bonkers, for sure.

Old Man Magic pulling chicanery on everyone while the young guns got out there and blazed? And then to have that many nasty halfcourt weapons? Man, that would have been titanic; LEGENDARY.

[Showtime 80]

I got one better, Magic on the fast break with Eddie and Kobe on the wings

Indeed. Full easy mode.

The 1998 Finals is the most watched basketball series of all time with the Bulls against the Jazz, can you imagine the numbers a Bulls/Lakers MJ/Magic Finals would’ve gotten?

Would have been absolutely bonkers, for sure.

Old Man Magic pulling chicanery on everyone while the young guns got out there and blazed? And then to have that many nasty halfcourt weapons? Man, that would have been titanic; LEGENDARY.

Don’t even get me started man, he left two “magical” seasons with two possible Finals on the table for sure!

What do you think happened to Magic? He seemed genuinely pumped for the 1997 season and really excited about the prospect of getting Shaq in the summer of 96’. Do you think the bad reception/resentment he experienced from some of the younger guys like Van Exel and Ceballos coupled with the way they went out to the Rockets in the playoffs soured him on continuing?

Magic never wanted to be a negative distraction and that in large part is what caused the retirement in 91 and again during the 1993 preseason (both the 92’ and 93’ teams would’ve made some noise with him) but darn I truly thought the competitor in him, his love for the game and the chance of playing with Shaq in the middle would’ve just been too much to pass up

I think he felt out of touch with the way the younger guys approached the game ever since his brief coaching stint at the end of 94’ where a few tense situations happened and the generation gap was in full display.

Man looking at Magic’s stats from his brief 96’ season playing just 29 mpg after being out 5 years and the man still put up 15 ppg, 7 asst and 6 rbs After having a full training camp for 97 and taking over the full time starting PG spot I’m certain he ups his averages to around 17/18 ppg, 9/10 asst and 8/9 rbs, basically a walking triple double threat with great efficiency. He would’ve played very similar to his early 80’s version when he shared PG duties with Norm Nixon and Kareem was still the center piece of the offense.

[tsherkin]

What do you think happened to Magic? He seemed genuinely pumped for the 1997 season and really excited about the prospect of getting Shaq in the summer of 96’. Do you think the bad reception/resentment he experienced from some of the younger guys like Van Exel and Ceballos coupled with the way they went out to the Rockets in the playoffs soured him on continuing?

All of the clapback from guys who were worried about his HIV was probably a larger issue than the team-related stuff, though surely that contributed significantly as well. Ignorance about HIV in general was a big deal at the time. It still is, for that matter. Less so than in the 90s, of course, but like, you have to imagine there were hints of homophobia in there because of understanding of HIV in-era, coupled to worry over transmission and on and on and on, right?

Massive shame, though. NBA life would have been far, far cooler if Magic had enjoyed a full career, or at least had been able to author a few years of comeback with Shaq and Kobe to launch their journey. And I still think that if LA re-tooled, Magic might have found a way to steal one from MJ. And yeah, that 97 or 98 type window would have been a KEY time for it.

[Showtime 80]

What do you think happened to Magic? He seemed genuinely pumped for the 1997 season and really excited about the prospect of getting Shaq in the summer of 96’. Do you think the bad reception/resentment he experienced from some of the younger guys like Van Exel and Ceballos coupled with the way they went out to the Rockets in the playoffs soured him on continuing?

All of the clapback from guys who were worried about his HIV was probably a larger issue than the team-related stuff, though surely that contributed significantly as well. Ignorance about HIV in general was a big deal at the time. It still is, for that matter. Less so than in the 90s, of course, but like, you have to imagine there were hints of homophobia in there because of understanding of HIV in-era, coupled to worry over transmission and on and on and on, right?

Massive shame, though. NBA life would have been far, far cooler if Magic had enjoyed a full career, or at least had been able to author a few years of comeback with Shaq and Kobe to launch their journey. And I still think that if LA re-tooled, Magic might have found a way to steal one from MJ. And yeah, that 97 or 98 type window would have been a KEY time for it.

Yeah I love Magic (my favorite player) but in his later years he had a tendency to pick up and get out when he felt things going downhill like Bush Sr’s special AIDS committee back in 92’, his coaching stint, his TV show, the Lakers front office position etc…

Like you mentioned the whole HIV episode had some shame attached to it because of the rumors and allegations surrounding it and also the players reactions that it probably made him a more sensitive individual and in turn extinguishing his desire to overexpose himself and fight against unfavorable situations. You would’ve had to forcefully drag Magic out of a basketball court in the 80’s

Even if they lost to the Bulls both years I would’ve thoroughly enjoyed him getting the best of Karl Malone and the Jazz on his way to the Finals as he was the loudest voice against Magic when he was attempting his comebacks.

[tsherkin]

Yeah I love Magic (my favorite player) but in his later years he had a tendency to pick up and get out when he felt things going downhill like Bush Sr’s special AIDS committee back in 92’, his coaching stint, his TV show, the Lakers front office position etc…

Also my favorite player. I do, however, largely try to stay away from what entertainers do away from their medium of entertainment, because it invariably leads to disappointment in so many cases.

Like you mentioned the whole HIV episode had some shame attached to it because of the rumors and allegations surrounding it and also the players reactions that it probably made more sensitive and not expose himself to unfavorable situations. You would’ve had to forcefully drag Magic out of a basketball court in the 80’s

Sure, but that changes things. Remember, 30 years ago, understanding of the mechanism of infection for HIV wasn't where it is now. Like, many people were still worried it could transmit through saliva. Or mere incidental contact with blood. No one was really talking about "viral load" and how it affects transmission (and Magic was, and if memory serves continues to, churning through medications to suppress the infection. So like, shy of him getting a cut and playing blood-brothers with another player, or bleeding into their mouth or something, the risk was negligible... but most people didn't understand that. Access to information was very different in the earlier years of the Internet, for example, and the early phases of the 24-hour news cycle.

[Rust_Cohle]

I said "can be overhyped" which you seem to be doing. Pippen had mental lapse at time when it mattered. Jordan had to manage the roster just as much as Phil did.

Pippen to me is a non factor if he's guarding Kobe in the NBA Finals. Jordan would be on Kobe anyways.

The irony in you calling a player overhyped and acting like Kobe is the most unstoppable force in NBA History.

Kobe had MORE THAN HALF of his finals appearances shooting a pathetic sub 41% but yes, he would “eat Pippen alive” just wtf man good lord

I never said Kobe was all of that, you did, but word it as you want. Your brain seems to be playing mind games with you.

Speaking of the mind and mental state of players.

Yeah, give me Kobe. Much more talented than Scottie, more mentally tough, and Kobe has a better IQ for the game.

Nah, your brain is envisioning Kobe into something he absolutely wasn’t. Mamba mentality is the biggest crock of crap in NBA history. If quitting on your team for an entire game like he did in 2006 elimination game like Phoenix is elite mentality then oh boy, you really need to do a lot more research.

Pippen absolutely had his horrible playoff moments, but defensively he absolutely would’ve caused Kobe a lot of issues. For the hundredth time, Kobe was an inefficient chucker and shot a horrific sub 41% in more than half his finals. Put Pippen on him and Kobe would be asking for a trade or looking for an elite big man to bail him out by halftime.

[Hair Jordan]

Pippen to me is a non factor if he's guarding Kobe in the NBA Finals. Jordan would be on Kobe anyways.

Why would Pippen be a non-factor? In 2000, an old post-back surgery Pippen averaged 15 ppg, 9rpg, 4 apg, 2.6 spg, and a block in the WCF. Kobe averaged 20, 5, and 5 on 44% shooting. Kobe averaged 8.5 points below his season average in that series, whereas Pippen outdid his regular-season numbers.

The previous season with the Rockets, Pippen averaged 18.3 ppg, 12 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg, and 0.8 bpg against Kobe and the Lakers in the playoffs. Kobe averaged 18.3 ppg on 41% shooting. Again, Kobe's scoring was down from his regular season (this time 4 ppg) and Pippen's was up.

There's no evidence of him being a non-factor against Kobe. If anything, it's quite the opposite

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

People are stupid and can’t remember what happened last week vs details of playoff series from 25+ years ago. Prime Kobe was 2005-2007 when he was getting bounced in the first round and blowing 3-1 leads to Phoenix.

[druggas]

The irony in you calling a player overhyped and acting like Kobe is the most unstoppable force in NBA History.

Kobe had MORE THAN HALF of his finals appearances shooting a pathetic sub 41% but yes, he would “eat Pippen alive” just wtf man good lord

I never said Kobe was all of that, you did, but word it as you want. Your brain seems to be playing mind games with you.

Speaking of the mind and mental state of players.

Yeah, give me Kobe. Much more talented than Scottie, more mentally tough, and Kobe has a better IQ for the game.

Nah, your brain is envisioning Kobe into something he absolutely wasn’t. Mamba mentality is the biggest crock of crap in NBA history. If quitting on your team for an entire game like he did in 2006 elimination game like Phoenix is elite mentality then oh boy, you really need to do a lot more research.

Pippen absolutely had his horrible playoff moments, but defensively he absolutely would’ve caused Kobe a lot of issues. For the hundredth time, Kobe was an inefficient chucker and shot a horrific sub 41% in more than half his finals. Put Pippen on him and Kobe would be asking for a trade or looking for an elite big man to bail him out by halftime.

Robinson and Duncan say otherwise.

[Showtime 80]

Yeah I love Magic (my favorite player) but in his later years he had a tendency to pick up and get out when he felt things going downhill like Bush Sr’s special AIDS committee back in 92’, his coaching stint, his TV show, the Lakers front office position etc…

Also my favorite player. I do, however, largely try to stay away from what entertainers do away from their medium of entertainment, because it invariably leads to disappointment in so many cases.

Like you mentioned the whole HIV episode had some shame attached to it because of the rumors and allegations surrounding it and also the players reactions that it probably made more sensitive and not expose himself to unfavorable situations. You would’ve had to forcefully drag Magic out of a basketball court in the 80’s

Sure, but that changes things. Remember, 30 years ago, understanding of the mechanism of infection for HIV wasn't where it is now. Like, many people were still worried it could transmit through saliva. Or mere incidental contact with blood. No one was really talking about "viral load" and how it affects transmission (and Magic was, and if memory serves continues to, churning through medications to suppress the infection. So like, shy of him getting a cut and playing blood-brothers with another player, or bleeding into their mouth or something, the risk was negligible... but most people didn't understand that. Access to information was very different in the earlier years of the Internet, for example, and the early phases of the 24-hour news cycle.

Great breakdown of the general ignorance of the time regarding AIDS/HIV in general.

I guess we were all in the same boat as a society and even though I would’ve selfishly loved for Magic to have just kept on playing we shouldn’t judge too harshly the backlash from guys like Malone because it was just a common fear during that period of time and Magic being one the great ambassadors of the game wasn’t going to let his illness take away from the competitive spirit of the sport.

[tsherkin]

Great breakdown of the general ignorance of the time regarding AIDS/HIV in general.

I guess we were all in the same boat as a society and even though I would’ve selfishly loved for Magic to have just kept on playing we shouldn’t judge too harshly the backlash from guys like Malone because it was just a common fear during that period of time and Magic being one the great ambassadors of the game wasn’t going to let his illness take away from the competitive spirit of the sport.

I'm a little closer to the issue than most, I guess, given my profession and stuff, but yeah. It must have been very hard for everyone.

Malone, I think, the issue is more that he played on the Dream Team with Magic and didn't say a word, then made his comments publicly when Magic was trying to come back and all that. So it was a shade two-faced, you know? The opinion wasn't unreasonable, although he didn't know the difference between HIV and AIDS, the sentiment wasn't wrong. His delivery wasn't awesome, though.

[PistolPeteJR]

2001 Kobe (Frobe) is Peak athleticism but 06 is when his mentality caught up with everything else. I think the Lakers are deadlier with a wiser Kobe

Honestly, I think peak mentality is actually 09 Kobe. 06, he was just bombing from everywhere because he had little to work with.

Agreed. '06 Kobe was definitely not peak mentality Kobe. At that point, he was in his, "score at all costs" mode and that wasn't the best version of himself. After that loss in '08, that's where he was at his best. I don't know if I'd pick '09 or '10, but one of those. I haven't looked at the data, I confess.

[tsherkin]

2001 Kobe (Frobe) is Peak athleticism but 06 is when his mentality caught up with everything else. I think the Lakers are deadlier with a wiser Kobe

Honestly, I think peak mentality is actually 09 Kobe. 06, he was just bombing from everywhere because he had little to work with.

Agreed. '06 Kobe was definitely not peak mentality Kobe. At that point, he was in his, "score at all costs" mode and that wasn't the best version of himself. After that loss in '08, that's where he was at his best. I don't know if I'd pick '09 or '10, but one of those. I haven't looked at the data, I confess.

09, for sure, if the alt option is 2010. He'd tailed off a bit, which isn't surprising with so many deep playoff runs. Not a huge difference in mentality between the two seasons, but a noticeable athleticism erosion and a weaker cast in terms of replacing Ariza with Artest, etc.

[HMFFL]

The irony in you calling a player overhyped and acting like Kobe is the most unstoppable force in NBA History.

Kobe had MORE THAN HALF of his finals appearances shooting a pathetic sub 41% but yes, he would “eat Pippen alive” just wtf man good lord

I never said Kobe was all of that, you did, but word it as you want. Your brain seems to be playing mind games with you.

Speaking of the mind and mental state of players.

Yeah, give me Kobe. Much more talented than Scottie, more mentally tough, and Kobe has a better IQ for the game.

Nah, your brain is envisioning Kobe into something he absolutely wasn’t. Mamba mentality is the biggest crock of crap in NBA history. If quitting on your team for an entire game like he did in 2006 elimination game like Phoenix is elite mentality then oh boy, you really need to do a lot more research.

Pippen absolutely had his horrible playoff moments, but defensively he absolutely would’ve caused Kobe a lot of issues. For the hundredth time, Kobe was an inefficient chucker and shot a horrific sub 41% in more than half his finals. Put Pippen on him and Kobe would be asking for a trade or looking for an elite big man to bail him out by halftime.

I watched both of their careers.

I respect your opinion but there is no way I'm taking Pippen over Kobe. Especially Pippen without Jordan who had to constantly uplift Scottie. Mental meltdowns!

Look how Scottie can't hold a job in tv now? Nobody wants to work with him.

Scottie lost to Kobe so many times in the playoffs without Jordan. By all means, refresh your memory.

[tsherkin]

For the hundredth time, Kobe was an inefficient chucker

And for the thousandth time, that isn't actually factually accurate.

I do agree that Pippen would give him as hard a time as any individual could, and that the Chicago team defense would be problematic for him, though.