RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[bledredwine]

The sig:

Read on Twitter

Let’s start fact checking before we copy and paste anything more in to this thread from partisan fan made youtube shorts.

Nice! You cherry picked and eliminated all the misses. My stat was specifically for 5 seconds left, to win or tie the game.
So good!

Here's a legit video, finals only.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=SE8F9E48jjs&embeds_widget_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fundisputedgoat.medium.com%2F&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.embedly.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.embedly.com&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY[/youtube]

Lebron really sucks when it comes to game winning/tying shots in the final moments. Hell, otherwise we'd be talking about his game winning shots way more often.
I don't even remember the last one.
I love that you're getting upset over it But you're not his fan, right?

When it comes to that career stat (5 seconds left, tie or win), Kobe's a lot more clutch.
I mean, for a portion of his career, Lebron had no 4th quarter, or so was the running joke.

Durant had 3x the clutch points when he flamed him in the finals too

lol this was on basketball reference way back in the day well before it was updated and was just as bad. YOU need to fact check.

Oh, and Lebron's 16 missed game winning 3's in a row? That was ESPN who first reported that gem.


NOW, let's enjoy some stats between him and Jordan! This is about 5 years old. But I imagine it looks worse now.

Playoff game-winners/tyers with 25 seconds or less
Jordan 10/19 (53%)
LeBron 10/27 (37%)
Playoff game-winners/tyers with 24 seconds or less
Jordan 9/18 (50%)
LeBron 10/27 (37%)
Playoff game-winners/tyers with 10 seconds or less
Jordan 7/15 (47%)
LeBron 9/22 (41%)
Playoff game-winners/tyers with 5 seconds or less
Jordan 5/11 (45%)
LeBron 7/17 (41%)
Finals game-winners/tyers with 25 seconds or less
Jordan 4/8 (50%)
LeBron 0/7 (0%)
Career buzzer beaters
Jordan 9
LeBron 7
Playoff series ending buzzer beaters
Jordan 2
LeBron 0
It should come as no surprise that the all-time buzzer-beater king is Jordan. His shots were all jumpers, ranging from 14 feet (’95 in Atlanta) to 26 feet (’92 vs. Detroit). 6 were in the regular season (trailing only Kobe and Johnson), and 3 were in the playoffs (trailing only LeBron). 2 of those 3 even ended the series. 7 were unassisted, which is tied for the most with Johnson. Jordan also averaged 34.4 points per game in the 9 games he won at the horn, which is the highest average among the 11 players with 5+ buzzer-beaters (beating LeBron by a fraction).
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SUPPORTING CAST
Post-1954 Finals Teams with sub-60 ppg supporting casts
’74 Bucks — 59.4 ppg
’94 Rockets — 59.3 ppg
’07 Cavs — 58.5 ppg
’01 Sixers — 58.2 ppg
’06 Heat — 58.2 ppg
’15 Cavs — 57.7 ppg
’99 Spurs — 57.4 ppg
’97 Bulls — 55.5 ppg
’04 Lakers — 55.2 ppg
’98 Jazz — 55.2 ppg
’98 Bulls — 54.5 ppg
’99 Knicks — 53.8 ppg
Post-1954 Championship Teams with sub-60 ppg supporting casts
’94 Rockets — 59.3 ppg
’06 Heat — 58.2 ppg
’99 Spurs — 57.4 ppg
’97 Bulls — 55.5 ppg
’98 Bulls — 54.5 ppg
None of LeBron’s teams in the Finals have produced as little offensivly as Jordan’s Bulls did in ’97 and ’98, yet Jordan still won back to back titles under those circumstances, and at age 34 and 35 no less.
Title teams with sub-70 PPG supporting casts for the overall playoffs
Post-1954 (Shot-Clock Era)
12. 2002 Lakers — 69.4 PPG
11. 2000 Lakers — 69.0 PPG
10. 1994 Rockets — 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat — 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls — 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat — 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls — 66.7 PPG
Title teams with sub-66 PPG supporting casts for the overall playoffs
Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)
5. 1992 Bulls — 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons — 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs — 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls — 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls — 60.8 PPG
In the shot-clock era, Jordan has
5 of the 8 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams
4 of the 6 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams
3 of the 5 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams
The 2 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams- Jordan is the only player to lead multiple top 10 lowest-scoring playoff supporting casts among title teams
The only player to lead a lesser scoring supporting cast to the NBA Finals than the ’97 or ’98 Bulls is Allen Iverson on the ’01 Sixers. The ’01 Sixers’ teammates outside of Iverson scored 60.3 PPG in the 22 playoff games Iverson played. Game 3 against the Bucks in which Iverson did not play is excluded from this calculation.


All from this site, and I have yet to find a wrong stat.
https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/jordan-in-the-clutch-30f6e7ed4c43

And I am the upset one. Look at you throwing a tantrum, running back to copy paste another brick wall that no one’s is going to read. I already corrected you multiple times on your sources and stats like Game 6 of the 2010 ECSF, when you claimed Lebron scored 17, was it?

Another brick wall of drivel, which is probably again littered with cherry-picking or incorrect numbers, isn’t going to bury your “special behaviour” here.

I know. You have no reply to all of the stats that show how dumb the debate is.

How ironic it was to see you try to explain the word partisan when you are one of the biggest champions of false information and propaganda here.
Propaganda is information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view, by the way.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Spoiler:

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable/favoured, outmatched and experienced team.

Interesting.

Because basketball reference says that Jordan shot .436 and .417 respectively. That first one being his rookie season, by the way
You must be desperate.

Care to link me to the sources you got those percentages from?
Reality says completely otherwise.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

This, of course, is pertaining to Lebron having multiple series where he shot terribly or even disappeared and Jordan lacking so, just to refresh your memory.

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

Yes, I’m the one spreading propaganda here, while you’re still sporting that hilarious sig of yours.
How and why are you lecturing others on the english language, when you’re this inept at reading comprehension.
And you wonder why I’ve stopped having a debate with you and your partisan fan club sources.

And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

I even used your choice of words. And once again, no, Lebron had a 27 19 10 triple double. This just further proves you don’t fact check or even read your own copy and pasted propaganda. You can stop embarrassing yourself now. We are done here. At least I am.

Strike issued for baiting, insults, backseat moderating etc etc in these posts and others:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119443912#p119443912
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119444954#p119444954
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119445638#p119445638
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119452374#p119452374

Because this is you 4th strike on the GB, you are now suspended from posting for at least 60 days. -b

[jjgp111292]

Oh, and his god awful clutch shooting is a literal stat, and if you’re really trying to prop him up as a scorer against Jordan as the ten to one scoring titles don’t mean anything? Well…

The sig:

Read on Twitter

Let’s start fact checking before we copy and paste anything more in to this thread from partisan fan made youtube shorts.

Nice! You cherry picked and eliminated all the misses. My stat was specifically for 5 seconds left, to win or tie the game.
So good!

Here's a legit video, finals only.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=SE8F9E48jjs&embeds_widget_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fundisputedgoat.medium.com%2F&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.embedly.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.embedly.com&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY[/youtube]

Lebron really sucks when it comes to game winning/tying shots in the final moments. Hell, otherwise we'd be talking about his game winning shots way more often.
I don't even remember the last one.
I love that you're getting upset over it But you're not his fan, right?

When it comes to that career stat (5 seconds left, tie or win), Kobe's a lot more clutch.
I mean, for a portion of his career, Lebron had no 4th quarter, or so was the running joke.

Durant had 3x the clutch points when he flamed him in the finals too

lol this was on basketball reference way back in the day well before it was updated and was just as bad. YOU need to fact check.

Oh, and Lebron's 16 missed game winning 3's in a row? That was ESPN who first reported that gem.


NOW, let's enjoy some stats between him and Jordan! This is about 5 years old. But I imagine it looks worse now.

Playoff game-winners/tyers with 25 seconds or less
Jordan 10/19 (53%)
LeBron 10/27 (37%)
Playoff game-winners/tyers with 24 seconds or less
Jordan 9/18 (50%)
LeBron 10/27 (37%)
Playoff game-winners/tyers with 10 seconds or less
Jordan 7/15 (47%)
LeBron 9/22 (41%)
Playoff game-winners/tyers with 5 seconds or less
Jordan 5/11 (45%)
LeBron 7/17 (41%)
Finals game-winners/tyers with 25 seconds or less
Jordan 4/8 (50%)
LeBron 0/7 (0%)
Career buzzer beaters
Jordan 9
LeBron 7
Playoff series ending buzzer beaters
Jordan 2
LeBron 0
It should come as no surprise that the all-time buzzer-beater king is Jordan. His shots were all jumpers, ranging from 14 feet (’95 in Atlanta) to 26 feet (’92 vs. Detroit). 6 were in the regular season (trailing only Kobe and Johnson), and 3 were in the playoffs (trailing only LeBron). 2 of those 3 even ended the series. 7 were unassisted, which is tied for the most with Johnson. Jordan also averaged 34.4 points per game in the 9 games he won at the horn, which is the highest average among the 11 players with 5+ buzzer-beaters (beating LeBron by a fraction).
Zoom image will be displayed

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Zoom image will be displayed

SUPPORTING CAST
Post-1954 Finals Teams with sub-60 ppg supporting casts
’74 Bucks — 59.4 ppg
’94 Rockets — 59.3 ppg
’07 Cavs — 58.5 ppg
’01 Sixers — 58.2 ppg
’06 Heat — 58.2 ppg
’15 Cavs — 57.7 ppg
’99 Spurs — 57.4 ppg
’97 Bulls — 55.5 ppg
’04 Lakers — 55.2 ppg
’98 Jazz — 55.2 ppg
’98 Bulls — 54.5 ppg
’99 Knicks — 53.8 ppg
Post-1954 Championship Teams with sub-60 ppg supporting casts
’94 Rockets — 59.3 ppg
’06 Heat — 58.2 ppg
’99 Spurs — 57.4 ppg
’97 Bulls — 55.5 ppg
’98 Bulls — 54.5 ppg
None of LeBron’s teams in the Finals have produced as little offensivly as Jordan’s Bulls did in ’97 and ’98, yet Jordan still won back to back titles under those circumstances, and at age 34 and 35 no less.
Title teams with sub-70 PPG supporting casts for the overall playoffs
Post-1954 (Shot-Clock Era)
12. 2002 Lakers — 69.4 PPG
11. 2000 Lakers — 69.0 PPG
10. 1994 Rockets — 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat — 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls — 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat — 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls — 66.7 PPG
Title teams with sub-66 PPG supporting casts for the overall playoffs
Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)
5. 1992 Bulls — 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons — 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs — 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls — 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls — 60.8 PPG
In the shot-clock era, Jordan has
5 of the 8 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams
4 of the 6 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams
3 of the 5 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams
The 2 lowest scoring playoff supporting casts for title teams- Jordan is the only player to lead multiple top 10 lowest-scoring playoff supporting casts among title teams
The only player to lead a lesser scoring supporting cast to the NBA Finals than the ’97 or ’98 Bulls is Allen Iverson on the ’01 Sixers. The ’01 Sixers’ teammates outside of Iverson scored 60.3 PPG in the 22 playoff games Iverson played. Game 3 against the Bucks in which Iverson did not play is excluded from this calculation.


All from this site, and I have yet to find a wrong stat.
https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/jordan-in-the-clutch-30f6e7ed4c43

Supporting cast PPG sounds like a strong point in a vacuum, but really it means nothing when you consider era (notice how all of these top teams come in the 90s/2000s), along with quality/type lineups of opponents, since team's lineups, gameplans or simply player availability vary from series to series (game to game, even). For example, how do you define "supporting cast" for ensemble teams that aren't led by a volume scorer, a la the '13/14 Spurs , the Bad Boy Pistons, the '04 Pistons, Magic's Lakers, etc. Or what about a team whose offensive numbers got impacted by a particularly outlier defense on either end of the spectrum? But if we go by the more easily assessible, conventional measures:

'97 Jazz: 70.1
'98 Jazz: 62.7

2012 Thunder: 72.8 (vs. 67.5 for Miami)
2015 Warriors: 75.3 (vs. 69.1 for Cleveland...minus a combined 33 PPG, so 36.1 PPG if you wanna just talk raw numbers)
2016 Warriors: 81.9 (vs. 78.5 for Cleveland, and this is murky because Steph Curry, the leading scorer, missed 6 games)
2017 Warriors: 90.9 (vs. 83.4 for Cleveland)
2018 Warriors: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And you're using this supporting cast thing to imply LeBron had superior help, but if you use your rigid criteria of "PPG surrounding the leading scorer" then congratulations, LeBron was at a disadvantage against the '13 Spurs and '20 Heat


And of course, this supporting cast scoring quantification means nothing without considering defense, rebounding, etc. It's a very weird, arbitrarty criteria, and even on its face it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[MavsDirk41]

Ah got it, so dealing with MODERATELY changing parts is very impressive, but dealing with a complete part change is a "failure" this type of thinking is mindboggling. It's obvious you're just making this point based on what fits your narrative. It's a terrible point. By your logic, if a GOAT level player has a god tier front office that continuously puts the best supporting cast around him, it's a testament to the player if they keep winning. Let's ignore any context regarding the front office or the talent surrounding the player though. Because the front office put together the great team instead of the player.going to a great team, it's somehow a massive difference

But Bill Russell is the ultimate dynasty player. He kept winning with changing parts on the same team. He has the best dynasty in NBA history by far What happened? I thought that's what defined a GOAT?

I tried to make it clear originally that dynasty is a factor in ones legacy… really trying to reach there arent you? Changing teams and winning has its own challenges, though even kobe had it harder after shaq left and being patient until another allstar waa got. Lebron just jumped to two allstars. Its still overall a feat of its own to win with 3 diff teams, but he hasnt created a dynasty culture anywhere, not the biggest factor but still a stain on what hes been able to show/prove. 3 in miami or cleveland or even LA would of done it but he doesnt get that checkmark.

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

[ScrantonBulls]

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable/favoured, outmatched and experienced team.

Interesting.

Because basketball reference says that Jordan shot .436 and .417 respectively. That first one being his rookie season, by the way
You must be desperate.

Care to link me to the sources you got those percentages from?
Reality says completely otherwise.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

This, of course, is pertaining to Lebron having multiple series where he shot terribly or even disappeared and Jordan lacking so, just to refresh your memory.

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

Yes, I’m the one spreading propaganda here, while you’re still sporting that hilarious sig of yours.
How and why are you lecturing others on the english language, when you’re this inept at reading comprehension.
And you wonder why I’ve stopped having a debate with you and your partisan fan club sources.

And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

I even used your choice of words. And once again, no, Lebron had a 27 19 10 triple double. This just further proves you don’t fact check or even read your own copy and pasted propaganda. You can stop embarrassing yourself now. We are done here. At least I am.

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

[ScrantonBulls]

I tried to make it clear originally that dynasty is a factor in ones legacy… really trying to reach there arent you? Changing teams and winning has its own challenges, though even kobe had it harder after shaq left and being patient until another allstar waa got. Lebron just jumped to two allstars. Its still overall a feat of its own to win with 3 diff teams, but he hasnt created a dynasty culture anywhere, not the biggest factor but still a stain on what hes been able to show/prove. 3 in miami or cleveland or even LA would of done it but he doesnt get that checkmark.

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

Why not define what you believe is a dynasty instead of being snide? That doesn't lead to good discussion.

[jjgp111292]

I tried to make it clear originally that dynasty is a factor in ones legacy… really trying to reach there arent you? Changing teams and winning has its own challenges, though even kobe had it harder after shaq left and being patient until another allstar waa got. Lebron just jumped to two allstars. Its still overall a feat of its own to win with 3 diff teams, but he hasnt created a dynasty culture anywhere, not the biggest factor but still a stain on what hes been able to show/prove. 3 in miami or cleveland or even LA would of done it but he doesnt get that checkmark.

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

I mean if the shoe fits...

[twyzted]

You should really start fact checking your sources. I know that you self-admittedly get the majority of your regurgitated cherry-picked numbers and slander from youtubers but it’s an eye sore now.

Lebron has on multiple occasions in the Finals had much more efficient series while maintaining within Jordan’s scoring range.

28 ppg on 57%
34 on 56%
30 on 59%

Are all higher than Jordan’s most efficient Finals of
31 ppg on 55% in ‘91

So 2 of those are series where he won a grand total of 1 game.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Jordan has a grand total of 1 series for his entire career where he shot under 40%.

[One Last Shot]

I tried to make it clear originally that dynasty is a factor in ones legacy… really trying to reach there arent you? Changing teams and winning has its own challenges, though even kobe had it harder after shaq left and being patient until another allstar waa got. Lebron just jumped to two allstars. Its still overall a feat of its own to win with 3 diff teams, but he hasnt created a dynasty culture anywhere, not the biggest factor but still a stain on what hes been able to show/prove. 3 in miami or cleveland or even LA would of done it but he doesnt get that checkmark.

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

Are you sure he's the one who have no clue what a dynasty is? Didn't you said Blazers and Jazz in MJ's time are dynasty eventhough they won a grand total of zero NBA title? The simple definition of sports dynasty is dominance and winning multiple championships, those two teams didn't won anything. Anyway..

Read on Twitter

[ScrantonBulls]

I tried to make it clear originally that dynasty is a factor in ones legacy… really trying to reach there arent you? Changing teams and winning has its own challenges, though even kobe had it harder after shaq left and being patient until another allstar waa got. Lebron just jumped to two allstars. Its still overall a feat of its own to win with 3 diff teams, but he hasnt created a dynasty culture anywhere, not the biggest factor but still a stain on what hes been able to show/prove. 3 in miami or cleveland or even LA would of done it but he doesnt get that checkmark.

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

None of these teams were weak

Just for reference. But sure, HE has no clue what a dynasty is

[Kawaii Leonard]

You should really start fact checking your sources. I know that you self-admittedly get the majority of your regurgitated cherry-picked numbers and slander from youtubers but it’s an eye sore now.

Lebron has on multiple occasions in the Finals had much more efficient series while maintaining within Jordan’s scoring range.

28 ppg on 57%
34 on 56%
30 on 59%

Are all higher than Jordan’s most efficient Finals of
31 ppg on 55% in ‘91

So 2 of those are series where he won a grand total of 1 game.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Jordan has a grand total of 1 series for his entire career where he shot under 40%.

Why are you straw manning the results of the finals over a comparison of efficiency between two players? Mind you the poster I was replying to specifically cherry-picked Finals performances (specifically Lebron’s blunder in 2011—which no one refuted) while we were discussing efficiency and if Lebron can match Jordan’s while scoring as much. He exceeded multiple times. And are we comparing players or all-time teams here? Next, you’re going to tell me that Jordan would’ve bested the 2018 Durant Warriors with the help of Love, JR Smith, George Hill, and Tristan Thompson? Please apply some context if you’re gonna have an angle like that.

[jjgp111292]

Interesting.

Because basketball reference says that Jordan shot .436 and .417 respectively. That first one being his rookie season, by the way
You must be desperate.

Care to link me to the sources you got those percentages from?
Reality says completely otherwise.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

This, of course, is pertaining to Lebron having multiple series where he shot terribly or even disappeared and Jordan lacking so, just to refresh your memory.

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

Yes, I’m the one spreading propaganda here, while you’re still sporting that hilarious sig of yours.
How and why are you lecturing others on the english language, when you’re this inept at reading comprehension.
And you wonder why I’ve stopped having a debate with you and your partisan fan club sources.

And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

I even used your choice of words. And once again, no, Lebron had a 27 19 10 triple double. This just further proves you don’t fact check or even read your own copy and pasted propaganda. You can stop embarrassing yourself now. We are done here. At least I am.

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

I don't think he's lying about stats so much as he just straight up doesn't comprehend them.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Spoiler:

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

Yes, I’m the one spreading propaganda here, while you’re still sporting that hilarious sig of yours.
How and why are you lecturing others on the english language, when you’re this inept at reading comprehension.
And you wonder why I’ve stopped having a debate with you and your partisan fan club sources.




I even used your choice of words. And once again, no, Lebron had a 27 19 10 triple double. This just further proves you don’t fact check or even read your own copy and pasted propaganda. You can stop embarrassing yourself now. We are done here. At least I am.

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

I don't think he's lying about stats so much as he just straight up doesn't comprehend them.

It’s a mix of both when you ctrl c + ctrl v ‘content’ from blog pages on medium or fan made youtube rubbish. It makes sense that throughout a discourse, he goes off on tangents (and can’t make a proper counterpoint) because none of the posts he’s bookmarked are cohesive beyond slandering Lebron.

Strike issued for baiting, insults, backseat moderating etc etc in these posts and others:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119443912#p119443912
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119444954#p119444954
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119445638#p119445638
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119452374#p119452374

Because this is you 4th strike on the GB, you are now suspended from posting for at least 60 days. -b

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

Are you sure he's the one who have no clue what a dynasty is? Didn't you said Blazers and Jazz in MJ's time are dynasty eventhough they won a grand total of zero NBA title? The simple definition of sports dynasty is dominance and winning multiple championships, those two teams didn't won anything. Anyway..

Read on Twitter

Utah Jazz
For 13 seasons of their seasons together with a core of Stockton and Malone the Jazz had a record of 701-333

3 60 win seasons
8 50 win seasons
5 WCF appearances
2 NBA finals appearances


Portland Trail Blazers
For 8 of the seasons with a core of Drexler, Porer, and Kersey they had a record of 418-218

1 60 win season
4 50 win seasons
3 WCF appearances
2 NBA final appearances


Yea they didnt win a championship but i actually think its pretty cool seeing players playing on the same team for that long a period of time and being so successful. Dynasty or not its rare to see a core stick together for such a long period of time nowadays. I dont young guys like yourself dont though but whatever.

[Kawaii Leonard]

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

Are you sure he's the one who have no clue what a dynasty is? Didn't you said Blazers and Jazz in MJ's time are dynasty eventhough they won a grand total of zero NBA title? The simple definition of sports dynasty is dominance and winning multiple championships, those two teams didn't won anything. Anyway..

Read on Twitter

Utah Jazz
For 13 seasons of their seasons together with a core of Stockton and Malone the Jazz had a record of 701-333

3 60 win seasons
8 50 win seasons
5 WCF appearances
2 NBA finals appearances


Portland Trail Blazers
For 8 of the seasons with a core of Drexler, Porer, and Kersey they had a record of 418-218

1 60 win season
4 50 win seasons
3 WCF appearances
2 NBA final appearances


Yea they didnt win a championship but i actually think its pretty cool seeing players playing on the same team for that long a period of time and being so successful. Dynasty or not its rare to see a core stick together for such a long period of time nowadays. I dont young guys like yourself dont though but whatever.

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

[MavsDirk41]

Are you sure he's the one who have no clue what a dynasty is? Didn't you said Blazers and Jazz in MJ's time are dynasty eventhough they won a grand total of zero NBA title? The simple definition of sports dynasty is dominance and winning multiple championships, those two teams didn't won anything. Anyway..

Read on Twitter

Utah Jazz
For 13 seasons of their seasons together with a core of Stockton and Malone the Jazz had a record of 701-333

3 60 win seasons
8 50 win seasons
5 WCF appearances
2 NBA finals appearances


Portland Trail Blazers
For 8 of the seasons with a core of Drexler, Porer, and Kersey they had a record of 418-218

1 60 win season
4 50 win seasons
3 WCF appearances
2 NBA final appearances


Yea they didnt win a championship but i actually think its pretty cool seeing players playing on the same team for that long a period of time and being so successful. Dynasty or not its rare to see a core stick together for such a long period of time nowadays. I dont young guys like yourself dont though but whatever.

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Manu/Ginobli, Dirks Mavs, Birds Celtics, Magics Lakers, Bad Boy Pistons, Bills Celtics, Thompson, Curry, Green….you actually dont think it was cool seeing these teams win year over year with the same core?

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

Are you sure he's the one who have no clue what a dynasty is? Didn't you said Blazers and Jazz in MJ's time are dynasty eventhough they won a grand total of zero NBA title? The simple definition of sports dynasty is dominance and winning multiple championships, those two teams didn't won anything. Anyway..

Read on Twitter

Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5%
James playoff winning pct 63.0%

Jordan 60 win seasons 5
James 60 win seasons 3

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

We can all cherry pick stats and records

[Kawaii Leonard]

Utah Jazz
For 13 seasons of their seasons together with a core of Stockton and Malone the Jazz had a record of 701-333

3 60 win seasons
8 50 win seasons
5 WCF appearances
2 NBA finals appearances


Portland Trail Blazers
For 8 of the seasons with a core of Drexler, Porer, and Kersey they had a record of 418-218

1 60 win season
4 50 win seasons
3 WCF appearances
2 NBA final appearances


Yea they didnt win a championship but i actually think its pretty cool seeing players playing on the same team for that long a period of time and being so successful. Dynasty or not its rare to see a core stick together for such a long period of time nowadays. I dont young guys like yourself dont though but whatever.

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Manu/Ginobli, Dirks Mavs, Birds Celtics, Magics Lakers, Bad Boy Pistons, Bills Celtics, Thompson, Curry, Green….you actually dont think it was cool seeing these teams win year over year with the same core?

I believe we were discussing what a Dynasty means to you, and not if a team was “cool”. You’re naming off teams that completed the journey my friend (with the Jazz being the only exception), which is what we are pressing you about.

Edit: as for your post above, the fact that you have to cherry-pick (or worse for some other posters here), shows that the comparison is much closer than what the Jordan partisan fans incessantly try to pound into the sand. Some of them can’t even fathom that Lebron could be even in the conversation. That’s what grinds my gears as a fan of both, even though characters like michaelm can’t believe such an anomaly.

[ScrantonBulls]

Are you sure he's the one who have no clue what a dynasty is? Didn't you said Blazers and Jazz in MJ's time are dynasty eventhough they won a grand total of zero NBA title? The simple definition of sports dynasty is dominance and winning multiple championships, those two teams didn't won anything. Anyway..

Read on Twitter

Utah Jazz
For 13 seasons of their seasons together with a core of Stockton and Malone the Jazz had a record of 701-333

3 60 win seasons
8 50 win seasons
5 WCF appearances
2 NBA finals appearances


Portland Trail Blazers
For 8 of the seasons with a core of Drexler, Porer, and Kersey they had a record of 418-218

1 60 win season
4 50 win seasons
3 WCF appearances
2 NBA final appearances


Yea they didnt win a championship but i actually think its pretty cool seeing players playing on the same team for that long a period of time and being so successful. Dynasty or not its rare to see a core stick together for such a long period of time nowadays. I dont young guys like yourself dont though but whatever.

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

It's such a blatantly obvious attempt to upsell the teams MJ beat in order to him look better. "Look guys, MJ beat two dynasties! The Utah Jazz and the Blazers!" It's hilarious how disingenuous the claim is. In no world were the 80s/90s Jazz a dynasty. I've never heard anybody claim that.

[twyzted]

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Last time i checked SERIES do not imply a single game. then posts 2 games where Jordan shot under 40%

85 playoffs series vs bucks


87 playoffs series vs celtics