michaelm wrote:DimesandKnicks wrote:michaelm wrote:You launched into the Jordan stuff as is the wont of those of your ilk. I responded. At all times I have said LeBron had no option to win championships at the Cavs due to the quality of the organisation the first time around, and was justified in leaving.
And again, you try to make a negative out of Jordan retiring at the age of 35 in 1998, elderly at that time, after a feat unprecedented since the Bill Russell Celtics in the infancy of the sport of leading a second threepeat as the universally acclaimed best player in the NBA with no caveats and as the consensus GOAT. He didn't need to keep playing to pass Kareem's points record to have some further claim on greatness, no one at the time, rightly or wrongly, thought Kareem was better than him. As I said Bill Russell retired at age 35 himself, was this because a crystal ball told him Lebron would put him in the shade 41 years later by continuing after that age ?. Was Bill a coward for not trying for a 12th title ?. Utter nonsense. Jordan like Bill could retire any time he felt like it after all he had achieved, and if being pissed off at the Bulls owner whom he had made so much wealthier was among Jordan's reasons so what ?, perhaps he was early into the player empowerment thing. Again, list players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35, the answer as I said is zero including LeBron. And when I said contend I didn't mean get absolutely smashed whether or not by the eventual title winner before the finals, there was never any chance of those Lakers teams winning the title, many contend partly because old Lebron can't play out a whole regular season then through a whole play-off series. Even if Jordan retired because he didn't think he could continue to be the best player in the world and win titles if he kept going after the second threepeat, again so what ?, there comes a time for everyone. Lebron has generated some nice numbers since 2020 but no one is under any illusion he has been the best player in the NBA over that period.
And you make the same internally contradictory point as your fellow traveller, how is Jerry Krause making better decisions than Jordan would have made proof that Krause wasn't allowed to build the Bulls teams by Jordan ?. What does it matter if he accepted Krause's decisions grudgingly ?. Steph Curry by wide repute didn't want GSW to fire Mark Jackson either, but go on with things with a new coach with some success. Does this mean he and his teams didn't really win the 4 titles, which most GSW fans doubt would have occurred had GSW continued with Mark Jackson.
You’re arguing against a bunch of arguments I’m not making.
So you say when challenged as did another poster currently on vacation who argues similarly to you. As I have said it would appear Jordan fans are limited to being entirely specific while you can make general arguments as you actually posted in this thread that you and fellow travellers were doing.
I don't read every post in every thread that I post in so yes, I'm actually only interested in debating the arguments that I make. I did put in one of my post to you that "to be fair this might not be your argument". Why would I argue other people's points? I'm talking to you and the points that You're making.
Did you not make contentions about why Jordan retired at the age of 35, going so far as to attribute same to cowardice ?.
No. I did not. When I called Jordan a coward I was saying it facetiously implying that those who think Lebron is a coward for joining the heat or the cavs because he didn't believe they could compete for championships should have the same enegry for Jordan who went on record as retiring because he wasn't interested in playing for the Bulls unless they were interested in contending.
And did you not directly disagree that Jordan allowed Krause to construct the Bulls around him ?. Your argument for the latter continues to escape me, but you did list bad choices that were reputedly Jordan’s preference but were not actually made.
Idk what you mean by allowed. The implication is that he had any power to do otherwise..but allowed? No..Jordan didn't allow Krause to build around him as Krause saw fit...at all. He was actively trying to get him fired!!!:
Excerpts from Jordan Rules https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1991/12/24/bulls-owner-quieted-jordan-star-player-wanted-to-run-team/62507195007/
(After learning that NBA veteran and former North Carolina Tar Heel Walter Davis had been traded to Portland and not the Bulls, Jordan responded before a game against the Nets. "As soon as we get back, I'm calling (Jerry) Reinsdorf. Krause has messed everything up again. He can't do anything. " (Two days later before practice, Jordan took off after Krause again. "If I were general manager, we'd be a better team. ")
"I figured I'd try to put the pressure on him to do something about Krause," Jordan said about his first volley of remarks after the team returned from New Jersey in late January. His eyes were hard and cold as he spoke. "This thing isn't over. I'm gonna get that guy fired yet. "
"Well," Reinsdorf pointed out to Jordan, "you're not helping any. We're working on several deals, but every time you come out criticizing the general manager, it makes it look like Jerry has to do something and that makes it harder on us. People start thinking we're desperate and want to take advantage of us. "
A few years ago Jordan had come in to talk to him, upset about the team's play and demanding trades. He wanted Horace Grant out, among others.
Jordan was going to go public with his complaints.
"Imagine how this makes your teammates feel," Reinsdorf continued. "What are they supposed to think when their captain says we're not good enough? How are we supposed to get the most out of them? And then how are we supposed to make a deal when you're knocking the players? Are other teams going to want them when you say they're not good enough? "
They weren't going to make a deal, Jordan thought. Krause was too scared and Reinsdorf was too satisfied. Jordan called his agent, David Falk. Had he checked any further on whether he could get out of his contract for next year?
Is this what "allowing" Jerry Krause to build around Jordan looks like? If so we'll simply agree to disagree. He was actively trying to get Krause fired and trying to figure out how he could get out of his contract...and at the time, the Bulls were in first place this would be the year that they'd ultimately begin their first three-peat.
All of this tells me that if Jordan would have went to the Cav as Lebron did for his second stint, he absolutely lobbies for that 1st pick to be traded and probably along with a 22 year old Kyrie Irving.
) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.
