Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[JM00n69]

Yes, KD was involved in a deck stacking endeavour which was actually successful. He subsequently didn’t prove very adept at repeating this though, because he can’t cover most if not all bases as LeBron can and needs pieces around him. Man’s got to know his limitations.

Why he apparently had an obligation to leave OKC only for a team LeBron could beat, or have any limitation on his choices given he was a free Agent the first time just as LeBron was for his moves I have never understood though.

It's pointless to argue with this person. LBJ/Wade/Bosh met multiple times before 'the decision' to form the Heatles and ALL OF THEM signed for significantly less than their max so they could play together. Trying to argue MIA wasn't organized. It was all over the sports media at the time. You're either too young or willfully ignorant.

Met multiple times beforehand to form the Heat? What part of your ass did you pull that one out of?

LeBron literally tried and failed to get Bosh to go to Cleveland that very off-season. He originally didn't want to go to Miami, only doing so when he felt like he had no choice. This is a well documented fact.

Sorry that I choose to follow facts and common sense.

ESPN a good enough source for you?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29375065/the-decision-high-stakes-maneuvers-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh

n 2006, agents for Bosh, Wade and James -- all of whom were represented by Creative Artists Agency -- had worked together so that all three players signed matching short-term extensions to allow for this possibility. As All-Star and USA Basketball teammates, the trio had conversations over the years about playing on the same NBA team, though nothing had been formalized.

Many around the league assumed the playing-together plan had been predetermined for months, if not years.

If not then hear it from DWade himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1gkkrf7/dwyane_wade_on_chris_bosh_joining_the_heat_we_had/

Like I said, you too young to remember this or willfully ignorant. Common sense aint so common these days either.

[DimesandKnicks]

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

Acquring Rodman turned out to be a great move by Krause but Rodman was 34 and only played 49 games the year prior in San Antonio because of multiple suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and a motorcycle accident while openly criticizing Pop and others in the organization while heading out the door.

When James recruited Love to Cleveland he was 25 and coming off a 26/13/4 season and was an all star and all nba team 2.

When James recruited Davis to LA he was 25 and coming off a 26/12/4 season and only played 56 games because he publicly requested a trade and New Orleans benched him. He was an all star and all nba player.

When James was gifted Luka he was 25 and averaged 28/8/8 coming off a season in which he led his team to the finals, was an all star, all nba team 1, mvp candidate.

One isnt like the others. And getting back to your response to me from Tuesday, i had no clue that Jordan wanted the Bulls to trade for Walter Davis. With BJ and Craig Hodges they didnt need him and he was way past his prime and old at that point in his career. I knew Jordan was the reason Stackhouse was traded to Washington for Rip Hamilton. Terrible trade that didnt work out. But James has recruited Love, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Lilllard, DeRozan, Durant, and of course was part of getting the superteam Heat together. An article i read said he has a “war room” at his house where he has met with players to strategize ways to get them on his team. So he is way better than Jordan at recruiting talent to play with.

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

[DimesandKnicks]

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

This is organized basketball, not 3x3

[JM00n69]

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

Acquring Rodman turned out to be a great move by Krause but Rodman was 34 and only played 49 games the year prior in San Antonio because of multiple suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and a motorcycle accident while openly criticizing Pop and others in the organization while heading out the door.

When James recruited Love to Cleveland he was 25 and coming off a 26/13/4 season and was an all star and all nba team 2.

When James recruited Davis to LA he was 25 and coming off a 26/12/4 season and only played 56 games because he publicly requested a trade and New Orleans benched him. He was an all star and all nba player.

When James was gifted Luka he was 25 and averaged 28/8/8 coming off a season in which he led his team to the finals, was an all star, all nba team 1, mvp candidate.

One isnt like the others. And getting back to your response to me from Tuesday, i had no clue that Jordan wanted the Bulls to trade for Walter Davis. With BJ and Craig Hodges they didnt need him and he was way past his prime and old at that point in his career. I knew Jordan was the reason Stackhouse was traded to Washington for Rip Hamilton. Terrible trade that didnt work out. But James has recruited Love, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Lilllard, DeRozan, Durant, and of course was part of getting the superteam Heat together. An article i read said he has a “war room” at his house where he has met with players to strategize ways to get them on his team. So he is way better than Jordan at recruiting talent to play with.

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Well MJ/Pippen/Rodman didn't play for different teams and conspire to sign together and take massive deals below market value, which is now not allowed in the CBA, btw. All that so they could play together.

Pippen was a draft day trade and signed a 7 year contract to secure a future for his family going against the advice from people close to him, which he tried to negotiate after he realised the mistake he'd made- unsuccessfully.. Rodman was aquired via trade.

So no is the pretty clear answer to your question.

[JM00n69]

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

This is organized basketball, not 3x3

Bosh went to MIA during his peak years and was much worse than he was in TOR. Later KLove after joining Cleveland with LBJ saw a major drop in his production. He was also in his prime years when he joined CLE.

[Slimjimzv]

As someone who grew up as a Jazz fan; specifically Stockton, Malone, and Sloan, I kindly ask that Stockton and Malone please stop.

[DimesandKnicks]

Acquring Rodman turned out to be a great move by Krause but Rodman was 34 and only played 49 games the year prior in San Antonio because of multiple suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and a motorcycle accident while openly criticizing Pop and others in the organization while heading out the door.

When James recruited Love to Cleveland he was 25 and coming off a 26/13/4 season and was an all star and all nba team 2.

When James recruited Davis to LA he was 25 and coming off a 26/12/4 season and only played 56 games because he publicly requested a trade and New Orleans benched him. He was an all star and all nba player.

When James was gifted Luka he was 25 and averaged 28/8/8 coming off a season in which he led his team to the finals, was an all star, all nba team 1, mvp candidate.

One isnt like the others. And getting back to your response to me from Tuesday, i had no clue that Jordan wanted the Bulls to trade for Walter Davis. With BJ and Craig Hodges they didnt need him and he was way past his prime and old at that point in his career. I knew Jordan was the reason Stackhouse was traded to Washington for Rip Hamilton. Terrible trade that didnt work out. But James has recruited Love, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Lilllard, DeRozan, Durant, and of course was part of getting the superteam Heat together. An article i read said he has a “war room” at his house where he has met with players to strategize ways to get them on his team. So he is way better than Jordan at recruiting talent to play with.

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Well MJ/Pippen/Rodman didn't play for different teams and conspire to sign together and take massive deals below market value, which is now not allowed in the CBA, btw. All that so they could play together.

Pippen was a draft day trade and signed a 7 year contract to secure a future for his family going against the advice from people close to him, which he tried to negotiate after he realised the mistake he'd made- unsuccessfully.. Rodman was aquired via trade.

So no is the pretty clear answer to your question.

Ahh so once more. If the organization is able to secure your rights under market value that’s okay with the basketball gods (Pippen 122nd ranked salary and Jordan 25th) but of the players willingly and without protest accept low salaries to build teams they’re organizations could not than bad?

Or is this just a you can’t leave your team thing?

Was it stacking the deck for no other reason than LeBron left the Heat in free agency? Because Kyrie was there than they acquired Love via trade?

Was Clyde Drexler and Hakeem “stacking the deck” when Clyde requested a trade from Portland with Hakeem lobbying for the move to be made?

Was Shaq stacking the deck when he joined a young 50 win Laker team?

Did the Sixers stack the deck when they sign and traded for Moses Malone the year after he won MVP (or is it different because it was an organizational move)

Did the Celtics “stacking the deck” when instead of just drafting Mchale with the first pick they traded it for Parish and the third pick which became Mchale or when they acquired Dennis Johnson?

I’m just curious as to what constitutes as “stacking the deck”?

Is it something you frown upon? (Or others, you’re more than welcome to lmk) and why?

Is it simply when a player plays the role of GM? Switches teams for better situation? Puts pressure on their organizations to make acquisitions?

Is what LeBron and KD did different in principle from what Clyde, Shaq, Barkley, Moses Malone, Wilt or Kobe did (either leaving or putting pressure on organizations)

Just curious as to what the threshold is in terms of what has to be done to be out of the basketball gods favor in yall opinion. Not be an ass, just genuinely curious

[DimesandKnicks]

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

This is organized basketball, not 3x3

Bosh went to MIA during his peak years and was much worse than he was in TOR. Later KLove after joining Cleveland with LBJ saw a major drop in his production. He was also in his prime years when he joined CLE.

That’s what happens when you go from being a No. 1 post option to a number three option in a league that was beginning to phase out post play.

[The4thHorseman]

It's pointless to argue with this person. LBJ/Wade/Bosh met multiple times before 'the decision' to form the Heatles and ALL OF THEM signed for significantly less than their max so they could play together. Trying to argue MIA wasn't organized. It was all over the sports media at the time. You're either too young or willfully ignorant.

Met multiple times beforehand to form the Heat? What part of your ass did you pull that one out of?

LeBron literally tried and failed to get Bosh to go to Cleveland that very off-season. He originally didn't want to go to Miami, only doing so when he felt like he had no choice. This is a well documented fact.

Sorry that I choose to follow facts and common sense.

ESPN a good enough source for you?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29375065/the-decision-high-stakes-maneuvers-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh

n 2006, agents for Bosh, Wade and James -- all of whom were represented by Creative Artists Agency -- had worked together so that all three players signed matching short-term extensions to allow for this possibility. As All-Star and USA Basketball teammates, the trio had conversations over the years about playing on the same NBA team, though nothing had been formalized.

Many around the league assumed the playing-together plan had been predetermined for months, if not years.

If not then hear it from DWade himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1gkkrf7/dwyane_wade_on_chris_bosh_joining_the_heat_we_had/

Like I said, you too young to remember this or willfully ignorant. Common sense aint so common these days either.

If it was already planned, then why was Toronto ready to do a sign and trade with Cleveland? Why did James want to stay there and play with Bosh?

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=5357607

[michaelm]

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

This is organized basketball, not 3x3

They can all do whatever they want as Free Agents as far as I am concerned. I can't see why all teams wouldn't try to be as stacked as possible within the rules, to my non-American eyes anyway.

Ball,takes has it right on the problem with your not many and varied arguments imo though. We know how KD played with Curry, and Pippen with Jordan. All you have is couldve's wouldve's shouldve's. I am fairly sure KD never wanted to play with LeBron for a start. We even have had assessments of how stacked OKC were in 2012. The final versions of the players in that team would have been incredibly stacked, if not necessarily a good fit, but they were all 22 and 23 back then, including KD who was 23.

[Onlytimewilltel]

44 pages

[Iwasawitness]

It's pointless to argue with this person. LBJ/Wade/Bosh met multiple times before 'the decision' to form the Heatles and ALL OF THEM signed for significantly less than their max so they could play together. Trying to argue MIA wasn't organized. It was all over the sports media at the time. You're either too young or willfully ignorant.

Met multiple times beforehand to form the Heat? What part of your ass did you pull that one out of?

LeBron literally tried and failed to get Bosh to go to Cleveland that very off-season. He originally didn't want to go to Miami, only doing so when he felt like he had no choice. This is a well documented fact.

Sorry that I choose to follow facts and common sense.

ESPN a good enough source for you?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29375065/the-decision-high-stakes-maneuvers-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh

n 2006, agents for Bosh, Wade and James -- all of whom were represented by Creative Artists Agency -- had worked together so that all three players signed matching short-term extensions to allow for this possibility. As All-Star and USA Basketball teammates, the trio had conversations over the years about playing on the same NBA team, though nothing had been formalized.

Many around the league assumed the playing-together plan had been predetermined for months, if not years.

If not then hear it from DWade himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1gkkrf7/dwyane_wade_on_chris_bosh_joining_the_heat_we_had/

Like I said, you too young to remember this or willfully ignorant. Common sense aint so common these days either.

You may want to read your own source. It literally states point blank that Bosh and Wade were unsure of what LeBron was going to do and that they were left in the dark days before he made his decision, and in fact that LeBron was still meeting with other teams even after Bosh already made his decision.

Hell, you want to go by what the players say, right?

Well, according to YOUR own source, all three players state that nothing was ever formalized until they had their phone call on July 4th. And even after that? LeBron still stopped returning their calls. And if you were actually around at the time, you would know that LeBron, even on the day of his announcement, was still on the fence about what to do, and it was his own mom who told him he needed to do what he thought was best for him and not worry about what others think. Hell, just weeks later he was crying to his friend because he wasn't sure if he made the right decision or not.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I lived through the entire experience and know exactly what went down. You want to paint a different picture. Reality says otherwise.

[ball_takes23]

Met multiple times beforehand to form the Heat? What part of your ass did you pull that one out of?

LeBron literally tried and failed to get Bosh to go to Cleveland that very off-season. He originally didn't want to go to Miami, only doing so when he felt like he had no choice. This is a well documented fact.

Sorry that I choose to follow facts and common sense.

ESPN a good enough source for you?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29375065/the-decision-high-stakes-maneuvers-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh

n 2006, agents for Bosh, Wade and James -- all of whom were represented by Creative Artists Agency -- had worked together so that all three players signed matching short-term extensions to allow for this possibility. As All-Star and USA Basketball teammates, the trio had conversations over the years about playing on the same NBA team, though nothing had been formalized.

Many around the league assumed the playing-together plan had been predetermined for months, if not years.

If not then hear it from DWade himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1gkkrf7/dwyane_wade_on_chris_bosh_joining_the_heat_we_had/

Like I said, you too young to remember this or willfully ignorant. Common sense aint so common these days either.

You may want to read your own source. It literally states point blank that Bosh and Wade were unsure of what LeBron was going to do and that they were left in the dark days before he made his decision, and in fact that LeBron was still meeting with other teams even after Bosh already made his decision.

Hell, you want to go by what the players say, right?

Well, according to YOUR own source, all three players state that nothing was ever formalized until they had their phone call on July 4th. And even after that? LeBron still stopped returning their calls. And if you were actually around at the time, you would know that LeBron, even on the day of his announcement, was still on the fence about what to do, and it was his own mom who told him he needed to do what he thought was best for him and not worry about what others think. Hell, just weeks later he was crying to his friend because he wasn't sure if he made the right decision or not.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I lived through the entire experience and know exactly what went down. You want reality to paint a different picture. Reality says otherwise.

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

[Iwasawitness]

ESPN a good enough source for you?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29375065/the-decision-high-stakes-maneuvers-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh



If not then hear it from DWade himself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1gkkrf7/dwyane_wade_on_chris_bosh_joining_the_heat_we_had/

Like I said, you too young to remember this or willfully ignorant. Common sense aint so common these days either.

You may want to read your own source. It literally states point blank that Bosh and Wade were unsure of what LeBron was going to do and that they were left in the dark days before he made his decision, and in fact that LeBron was still meeting with other teams even after Bosh already made his decision.

Hell, you want to go by what the players say, right?

Well, according to YOUR own source, all three players state that nothing was ever formalized until they had their phone call on July 4th. And even after that? LeBron still stopped returning their calls. And if you were actually around at the time, you would know that LeBron, even on the day of his announcement, was still on the fence about what to do, and it was his own mom who told him he needed to do what he thought was best for him and not worry about what others think. Hell, just weeks later he was crying to his friend because he wasn't sure if he made the right decision or not.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I lived through the entire experience and know exactly what went down. You want reality to paint a different picture. Reality says otherwise.

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

[ball_takes23]

You may want to read your own source. It literally states point blank that Bosh and Wade were unsure of what LeBron was going to do and that they were left in the dark days before he made his decision, and in fact that LeBron was still meeting with other teams even after Bosh already made his decision.

Hell, you want to go by what the players say, right?

Well, according to YOUR own source, all three players state that nothing was ever formalized until they had their phone call on July 4th. And even after that? LeBron still stopped returning their calls. And if you were actually around at the time, you would know that LeBron, even on the day of his announcement, was still on the fence about what to do, and it was his own mom who told him he needed to do what he thought was best for him and not worry about what others think. Hell, just weeks later he was crying to his friend because he wasn't sure if he made the right decision or not.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I lived through the entire experience and know exactly what went down. You want reality to paint a different picture. Reality says otherwise.

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

no that was not his point, that is you putting words in his mouth. The original quote which started the entire exchange is asking why LBJ gets a pass for organizing his teams

100% obv. Why does KD get so much flack for choosing the 'hardest road' in FA but LBJ gets a pass for oranising his own teams again and again and again? And lets not forget his failed attempt at LAL with Russ and Melo just because it didn't end in a ring. And who got the blame for it? You fanboys really twist the history for him than anyone ever has for any other player.

he never once says that LBJ always planned on going to join Wade and Bosh in Miami. And the fact is that he, along with Wade and Bosh, did help organize the team after their rookie contracts were up by agreeing to all sign the same post-rookie extensions which all expired at the same time. The fact that LBJ also considered going to a different team, one that he did not help organize, is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what actually happened, and what actually happened is that LBJ ended up going to a team that he helped organize, a team that would not have been able to form without the involvement of prior organization years prior from its 3 core members

[Cavsfansince84]

he never once says that LBJ always planned on going to join Wade and Bosh in Miami. And the fact is that he, along with Wade and Bosh, did help organize the team after their rookie contracts were up by agreeing to all sign the same post-rookie extensions which all expired at the same time. The fact that LBJ also considered going to a different team, one that he did not help organize, is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what actually happened, and what actually happened is that LBJ ended up going to a team that he helped organize, a team that would not have been able to form without the involvement of prior organization years prior from its 3 core members

You are connecting the wrong dots re their contracts all expiring at the same time. That is just a byproduct of them all coming from the same draft. The 3 year extensions at the time were just the best thing for them to do regardless because it allowed them to get bigger max contracts and become ufa's sooner. So it made sense for them to do that whether they were planning to leave or sign somewhere together anyhow. It's not proof of conspiring together to join up.

[AlexanderRight]

You may want to read your own source. It literally states point blank that Bosh and Wade were unsure of what LeBron was going to do and that they were left in the dark days before he made his decision, and in fact that LeBron was still meeting with other teams even after Bosh already made his decision.

Hell, you want to go by what the players say, right?

Well, according to YOUR own source, all three players state that nothing was ever formalized until they had their phone call on July 4th. And even after that? LeBron still stopped returning their calls. And if you were actually around at the time, you would know that LeBron, even on the day of his announcement, was still on the fence about what to do, and it was his own mom who told him he needed to do what he thought was best for him and not worry about what others think. Hell, just weeks later he was crying to his friend because he wasn't sure if he made the right decision or not.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I lived through the entire experience and know exactly what went down. You want reality to paint a different picture. Reality says otherwise.

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

[Iwasawitness]

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

no that was not his point, that is you putting words in his mouth. The original quote which started the entire exchange is asking why LBJ gets a pass for organizing his teams

100% obv. Why does KD get so much flack for choosing the 'hardest road' in FA but LBJ gets a pass for oranising his own teams again and again and again? And lets not forget his failed attempt at LAL with Russ and Melo just because it didn't end in a ring. And who got the blame for it? You fanboys really twist the history for him than anyone ever has for any other player.

he never once says that LBJ always planned on going to join Wade and Bosh in Miami. And the fact is that he, along with Wade and Bosh, did help organize the team after their rookie contracts were up by agreeing to all sign the same post-rookie extensions which all expired at the same time. The fact that LBJ also considered going to a different team, one that he did not help organize, is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what actually happened, and what actually happened is that LBJ ended up going to a team that he helped organize, a team that would not have been able to form without the involvement of prior organization years prior from its 3 core members

Dude.

Re read what you just quoted. You managed to help prove my point for me. Thanks again.

[DimesandKnicks]

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

The stuff some of yall are saying is like saying organizations should trade for players or draft all nba/all star level free agents. Work with the team you have, build through the draft and sign role players. Everything else is an easier route and should be considered when grading the best organizations.

[bushybrah_]

Says the guy with no titles