Top 25 peaks for 25 years periods - voting panel thread

[LA Bird]

My understanding from DoctorMJ’s post on this is that these accounts haven’t been banned because the assumption is that they are probably separate people and therefore could potentially become legitimate contributors absent OhayoKD’s influence/scripting.

No offense to the mods but this naivety is absurd. Imagine if the NBA rehired Tim Donaghy after he got out of prison because he could potentially become a legitimate ref absent any gambling. Just no. It doesn't matter if he is a changed man. Any game he ever refs will forever be tainted by suspicion because of his past. Same goes for these accounts that were posting scripted votes from the banned posters. This wasn't some minor error that could be chalked up to rookie mistakes by new posters. It was blatant manipulation. People only join a forum because they are interested in personally partaking in the discussion there. So why would they then give up their own vote and post the scripted vote of someone else? None of these scripted accounts should ever be allowed to vote in a project. It doesn't matter if they were direct alts or people voting on their behalf. And if anything, the latter scenario is even sadder. Can you imagine a friend urging you to make an account on an online forum because they need to rig an election through multiple fake accounts? And then you happily follow through with that plan instead of questioning their sanity?

I think people are getting sidetracked by this "substance" discussion for these posters. AEngima and OhayoKD weren't banned because they lacked substance in their posts. So why would any account posting scripted answers from them have that problem? The solution here is really simple - mods announce all the accounts that were confirmed to be posting scripted votes, they get blacklisted, and we move on. But instead this mess is getting dragged out because the mods want to give the scripted accounts the benefit of the doubt but all they have accomplished is spread the doubt to every new account whether guilty or innocent.

[Elpolo_14]

My understanding from DoctorMJ’s post on this is that these accounts haven’t been banned because the assumption is that they are probably separate people and therefore could potentially become legitimate contributors absent OhayoKD’s influence/scripting.

No offense to the mods but this naivety is absurd. Imagine if the NBA rehired Tim Donaghy after he got out of prison because he could potentially become a legitimate ref absent any gambling. Just no. It doesn't matter if he is a changed man. Any game he ever refs will forever be tainted by suspicion because of his past. Same goes for these accounts that were posting scripted votes from the banned posters. This wasn't some minor error that could be chalked up to rookie mistakes by new posters. It was blatant manipulation. People only join a forum because they are interested in personally partaking in the discussion there. So why would they then give up their own vote and post the scripted vote of someone else? None of these scripted accounts should ever be allowed to vote in a project. It doesn't matter if they were direct alts or people voting on their behalf. And if anything, the latter scenario is even sadder. Can you imagine a friend urging you to make an account on an online forum because they need to rig an election through multiple fake accounts? And then you happily follow through with that plan instead of questioning their sanity?

I think people are getting sidetracked by this "substance" discussion for these posters. AEngima and OhayoKD weren't banned because they lacked substance in their posts. So why would any account posting scripted answers from them have that problem? The solution here is really simple - mods announce all the accounts that were confirmed to be posting scripted votes, they get blacklisted, and we move on. But instead this mess is getting dragged out because the mods want to give the scripted accounts the benefit of the doubt but all they have accomplished is spread the doubt to every new account whether guilty or innocent.

Every Player I Voted for were My own Opinion and I Put my Own Reasoning behind each Player I list each time.
Every discussion in the project I had with 70sfan One and Done ETC.. were all me and my takes on the sports.

[LA Bird]

Every Player I Voted for were My own Opinion and I Put my Own Reasoning behind each Player I list each time.
Every discussion in the project I had with 70sfan One and Done ETC.. were all me and my takes on the sports.

An alt account would say the exact same thing too. It's not like they would admit to being fakes once questioned. And that's precisely the problem. By allowing the scripted accounts to continue to exist, the mods have created this environment where nobody can be certain which accounts are genuine or fake.

Just to be clear, I don't know if you are a scripted account or not. And it doesn't matter what I think. Anyone can suspect any account of being real or fake. But the mods have the list of scripted accounts and that's why it is up to them, and them alone, to take action and resolve this situation.

[Elpolo_14]

70sFan Just forget my request for participation. I don't wanna Vote anymore.

Maybe will come and go for discussion or to partake in some takes but I won't involve in the result of Project.

[TrueLAfan]

I'd like to participate as well. Gives me an excuse to visit the PC board more, which I don't often do anymore. Anyway, I'll join if it's okay and a spot is available. If so, I'll try and post fairly regularly.

btw--you have to include the ABA. Great discussion to be had there. And 70sfan's suggestion is a pretty good one. Most/all of the posters that were sockpuppeting were doing so for modern discussions. I think it's less likely, tho' not impossible, that someone would create fake accounts to talk about Connie Hawkins or someone from half a century ago. But I think it's (much) less likely. And I'd probably mention Hawk at some point anyway.

[lessthanjake]

Every Player I Voted for were My own Opinion and I Put my Own Reasoning behind each Player I list each time.
Every discussion in the project I had with 70sfan One and Done ETC.. were all me and my takes on the sports.

An alt account would say the exact same thing too. It's not like they would admit to being fakes once questioned. And that's precisely the problem. By allowing the scripted accounts to continue to exist, the mods have created this environment where nobody can be certain which accounts are genuine or fake.

Just to be clear, I don't know if you are a scripted account or not. And it doesn't matter what I think. Anyone can suspect any account of being real or fake. But the mods have the list of scripted accounts and that's why it is up to them, and them alone, to take action and resolve this situation.

Just want to note that we do know that Elpolo has had their posts scripted by OhayoKD. Couldn’t be clearer than this:



I will note that I’m not sure the mods have a list of scripted accounts. Haven’t seen the evidence on this, but the way I read DoctorMJ’s post was that OhayoKD had specifically referred to controlling 10 accounts, rather than that we had a definitive list of what those 10 accounts are. Elpolo and Top10alltime are definitely two of them though. I have no idea whether Verticality is.

[Peregrine01]

Can someone enlighten me on this scripted accounts thing? Some posters actually created burner accounts to swing votes on a basketball forum? That's crazy lmao.

[Owly]

Can someone enlighten me on this scripted accounts thing? Some posters actually created burner accounts to swing votes on a basketball forum? That's crazy lmao.

Very much not an expert.

There has been some discussion over how much is direct burner/sock puppets and how much is real people going along with it. Mileage may vary how much that matters.

Some here will know more from being on a Discord. Suggestion is mods know more than they presently need to share (which personally I don't know much about, have strong opinions on) but it was previously banned posters involved and or complicit in it. An (I think announcement) thread was up at the top there for a while - where there is now one for "Our Conversation about Projects (continued)" (I think), which is implicitly a continuation of that discussion, but more forward looking.

The thread is here viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2470670

[DraymondGold]

Can someone enlighten me on this scripted accounts thing? Some posters actually created burner accounts to swing votes on a basketball forum? That's crazy lmao.

See this thread here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2470670

In short, OhayoKD and AEnigma both turned out to be previously banned posters, who had made second accounts to avoid the ban. Then OhayoKD made a series of 10 alts and sock puppet accounts. It was organized on some private discord. Then the group, led by OhayoKD and AEnigma, attempted an organized coup/conspiracy with the goal of trying to skew the results of the recent cancelled RealGM Peaks project (and potentially in threads/projects before that) specifically to vote Jordan as low as possible (and presumably to skew the results to be lower on players they thought were similar to Jordan or would make Jordan look good, while being high on players they though would make good replacements for Jordan and would make Jordan look bad). This isn't just my speculating -- it's confirmed by a well trusted mod who's been with this forum for decades, and who has evidence from multiple sources.

The full list of the 10 alts/sock puppets who participated in the scandal hasn't been released, but like jake said, unfortunately Elpolo_14 and Top10alltime are confirmed members. OhayoKD admitted Elpolo_14 was one of the members (see screenshot above), and Top10alltime came forward themselves in post 21 of the Scandal thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119439244#p119439244).

It's hard to know whether they're truly alts or "just" sock puppet accounts who still participated in the scandal. LA Bird said above, an alt would surely continue to act like they weren't an alt to avoid getting banned... even if they were an alt. It's a big game of Secret Hitler or Mafia or Among Us... the very scenario makes it hard to trust what someone involved says, even if they are telling the truth. In the case they are other people, DoctorMJ thought it would be best to give them a second chance, and ask them to not try the scandal again.

But even if those two posters are separate people, by being involved in the scandal, they surely knew what was going on, surely knew that Ohayo and AEnigma were originally banned and were using alts, and surely knew the coup was against project/forum rules. So unless they happen to be double agents who admitted to DoctorMJ in secret what was going on, they still broke forum rules and participated in a scandal to skew the results specifically against Jordan in the previous cancelled greatest peaks project.

I am thinking about the in-between solution - maybe we should start the first era with the restricted one year activity rule and allow new posters to contribute without voting. Then in the next era, they could join if there's no reason to keep them away.

What do you think about this idea?

Sounds like a fair solution to me. Even if OhyaoKD is behind one or more accounts (directly or indirectly), you avoid the Jordan vs. LeBron or then vs. now discussions with this format. So I don't see much 'rigging' potential with this project.

I don't think it's a good idea to don't give them a vote until MJ is in like someone suggested, because it makes you vulnerable to accusations that the project was once again 'rigged' - but this time from the other side.

If one were trying to compromise, another option is to not let them vote in the first ~10/15 ranks of any of the eras. The goal was to make Jordan lower, but the coup did that by being higher on other all-time players across all eras, and also by trying to be lower on players they thought would make Jordan look worse (e.g. other off-ball hybrid scoring guards or lower on guard defense) or higher on players they thought would make LeBron look better (e.g. other on-ball heliocentric players), and those efforts persist across all eras. But it was primarily around Jordan, so waiting for Jordan to be voted in seems like a minimum requirement.

But again, with no offense to those accounts if they are indeed separate people (not alts), if someone did participate in a scandal to rig the previous realgm peaks project, it seems sensible to not give them a vote in the next peaks project, which had to be redone to avoid the scandal they participated in. Even if they're not alts, they still participated in the coup. The majority of the board wanted some sort of filter to make sure voting members had enough quality posts/time on the forum (even if the ideal threshold was debated) to avoid a situation like this, and I tend to agree with them.

But that's just me. In the possibility that they are separate people and not alts, I'm all for them participating in the discussion without voting.

[Peregrine01]

My God. Some people take themselves way too seriously.

[ZeppelinPage]

I am thinking about the in-between solution - maybe we should start the first era with the restricted one year activity rule and allow new posters to contribute without voting. Then in the next era, they could join if there's no reason to keep them away.

What do you think about this idea?

Great idea.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Can someone enlighten me on this scripted accounts thing? Some posters actually created burner accounts to swing votes on a basketball forum? That's crazy lmao.

See this thread here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2470670

In short, OhayoKD and AEnigma both turned out to be previously banned posters, who had made second accounts to avoid the ban. Then OhayoKD made a series of 10 alts and sock puppet accounts. It was organized on some private discord. Then the group, led by OhayoKD and AEnigma, attempted an organized coup/conspiracy with the goal of trying to skew the results of the recent cancelled RealGM Peaks project (and potentially in threads/projects before that) specifically to vote Jordan as low as possible (and presumably to skew the results to be lower on players they thought were similar to Jordan or would make Jordan look good, while being high on players they though would make good replacements for Jordan and would make Jordan look bad). This isn't just my speculating -- it's confirmed by a well trusted mod who's been with this forum for decades, and who has evidence from multiple sources.

The full list of the 10 alts/sock puppets who participated in the scandal hasn't been released, but like jake said, unfortunately Elpolo_14 and Top10alltime are confirmed members. OhayoKD admitted Elpolo_14 was one of the members (see screenshot above), and Top10alltime came forward themselves in post 21 of the Scandal thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119439244#p119439244).

It's hard to know whether they're truly alts or "just" sock puppet accounts who still participated in the scandal. LA Bird said above, an alt would surely continue to act like they weren't an alt to avoid getting banned... even if they were an alt. It's a big game of Secret Hitler or Mafia or Among Us... the very scenario makes it hard to trust what someone involved says, even if they are telling the truth. In the case they are other people, DoctorMJ thought it would be best to give them a second chance, and ask them to not try the scandal again.

But even if those two posters are separate people, by being involved in the scandal, they surely knew what was going on, surely knew that Ohayo and AEnigma were originally banned and were using alts, and surely knew the coup was against project/forum rules. So unless they happen to be double agents who admitted to DoctorMJ in secret what was going on, they still broke forum rules and participated in a scandal to skew the results specifically against Jordan in the previous cancelled greatest peaks project.

I am thinking about the in-between solution - maybe we should start the first era with the restricted one year activity rule and allow new posters to contribute without voting. Then in the next era, they could join if there's no reason to keep them away.

What do you think about this idea?

Sounds like a fair solution to me. Even if OhyaoKD is behind one or more accounts (directly or indirectly), you avoid the Jordan vs. LeBron or then vs. now discussions with this format. So I don't see much 'rigging' potential with this project.

I don't think it's a good idea to don't give them a vote until MJ is in like someone suggested, because it makes you vulnerable to accusations that the project was once again 'rigged' - but this time from the other side.

If one were trying to compromise, another option is to not let them vote in the first ~10/15 ranks of any of the eras. The goal was to make Jordan lower, but the coup did that by being higher on other all-time players across all eras, and also by trying to be lower on players they thought would make Jordan look worse (e.g. other off-ball hybrid scoring guards or lower on guard defense) or higher on players they thought would make LeBron look better (e.g. other on-ball heliocentric players), and those efforts persist across all eras. But it was primarily around Jordan, so waiting for Jordan to be voted in seems like a minimum requirement.

But again, with no offense to those accounts if they are indeed separate people (not alts), if someone did participate in a scandal to rig the previous realgm peaks project, it seems sensible to not give them a vote in the next peaks project, which had to be redone to avoid the scandal they participated in. Even if they're not alts, they still participated in the coup. The majority of the board wanted some sort of filter to make sure voting members had enough quality posts/time on the forum (even if the ideal threshold was debated) to avoid a situation like this, and I tend to agree with them.

But that's just me. In the possibility that they are separate people and not alts, I'm all for them participating in the discussion without voting.

Um the post you're saying was an admission from top10alltime and you linked is saying a scripted poster was just having their own talking points or whatever they said put together and I don't think it was even talking about themselves? I kind of already was thinking this when I saw a bunch of the guys being accused defend themselves and get ignored but now that you're literally sorta just lying I think at best this whole scripting scandal was exaggerated and at worst this alot of this was drummed way up so we could do this whole what's your voter count or sign up time since that's how I guess you measure your d--k on an internet website from guys I literally only see post in peaks or the retro to say other guys can't vote were trying to be misleading so they can basically do republican voter suppression bs lol.


Like if the whole thing is people giving talking points or suggesting stuff to say or even just giving you your own stuff I'm pretty sure that doesn't make someone a sock account and the dude in that post never even says they did that. C'mon dude.

[DraymondGold]

Can someone enlighten me on this scripted accounts thing? Some posters actually created burner accounts to swing votes on a basketball forum? That's crazy lmao.

See this thread here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2470670

In short, OhayoKD and AEnigma both turned out to be previously banned posters, who had made second accounts to avoid the ban. Then OhayoKD made a series of 10 alts and sock puppet accounts. It was organized on some private discord. Then the group, led by OhayoKD and AEnigma, attempted an organized coup/conspiracy with the goal of trying to skew the results of the recent cancelled RealGM Peaks project (and potentially in threads/projects before that) specifically to vote Jordan as low as possible (and presumably to skew the results to be lower on players they thought were similar to Jordan or would make Jordan look good, while being high on players they though would make good replacements for Jordan and would make Jordan look bad). This isn't just my speculating -- it's confirmed by a well trusted mod who's been with this forum for decades, and who has evidence from multiple sources.

The full list of the 10 alts/sock puppets who participated in the scandal hasn't been released, but like jake said, unfortunately Elpolo_14 and Top10alltime are confirmed members. OhayoKD admitted Elpolo_14 was one of the members (see screenshot above), and Top10alltime came forward themselves in post 21 of the Scandal thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119439244#p119439244).

It's hard to know whether they're truly alts or "just" sock puppet accounts who still participated in the scandal. LA Bird said above, an alt would surely continue to act like they weren't an alt to avoid getting banned... even if they were an alt. It's a big game of Secret Hitler or Mafia or Among Us... the very scenario makes it hard to trust what someone involved says, even if they are telling the truth. In the case they are other people, DoctorMJ thought it would be best to give them a second chance, and ask them to not try the scandal again.

But even if those two posters are separate people, by being involved in the scandal, they surely knew what was going on, surely knew that Ohayo and AEnigma were originally banned and were using alts, and surely knew the coup was against project/forum rules. So unless they happen to be double agents who admitted to DoctorMJ in secret what was going on, they still broke forum rules and participated in a scandal to skew the results specifically against Jordan in the previous cancelled greatest peaks project.

Sounds like a fair solution to me. Even if OhyaoKD is behind one or more accounts (directly or indirectly), you avoid the Jordan vs. LeBron or then vs. now discussions with this format. So I don't see much 'rigging' potential with this project.

I don't think it's a good idea to don't give them a vote until MJ is in like someone suggested, because it makes you vulnerable to accusations that the project was once again 'rigged' - but this time from the other side.

If one were trying to compromise, another option is to not let them vote in the first ~10/15 ranks of any of the eras. The goal was to make Jordan lower, but the coup did that by being higher on other all-time players across all eras, and also by trying to be lower on players they thought would make Jordan look worse (e.g. other off-ball hybrid scoring guards or lower on guard defense) or higher on players they thought would make LeBron look better (e.g. other on-ball heliocentric players), and those efforts persist across all eras. But it was primarily around Jordan, so waiting for Jordan to be voted in seems like a minimum requirement.

But again, with no offense to those accounts if they are indeed separate people (not alts), if someone did participate in a scandal to rig the previous realgm peaks project, it seems sensible to not give them a vote in the next peaks project, which had to be redone to avoid the scandal they participated in. Even if they're not alts, they still participated in the coup. The majority of the board wanted some sort of filter to make sure voting members had enough quality posts/time on the forum (even if the ideal threshold was debated) to avoid a situation like this, and I tend to agree with them.

But that's just me. In the possibility that they are separate people and not alts, I'm all for them participating in the discussion without voting.

Um the post you're saying was an admission from top10alltime and you linked is saying a scripted poster was just having their own talking points or whatever they said put together and I don't think it was even talking about themselves? I kind of already was thinking this when I saw a bunch of the guys being accused defend themselves and get ignored but now that you're literally sorta just lying I think at best this whole scripting scandal was exaggerated and at worst this alot of this was drummed way up so we could do this whole what's your voter count or sign up time since that's how I guess you measure your d--k on an internet website from guys I literally only see post in peaks or the retro to say other guys can't vote were trying to be misleading so they can basically do republican voter suppression bs lol.


Like if the whole thing is people giving talking points or suggesting stuff to say or even just giving you your own stuff I'm pretty sure that doesn't make someone a sock account and the dude in that post never even says they did that. C'mon dude.

DoctorMJ said he had multiple sources of evidence confirming the scandal, and saying the 10 accounts were either alts or sock puppet accounts. I trust a guy who's been here for decades, and has a well-known history of being a great moderator and a constructive member of the community. If you think DoctorMJ or his multiple sources are mistaken/lying, take it up with him -- I'm just the messenger believing the experts here.

If you don't see an issue with banned posters making alts to get around being banned, or if you don't see the issue with making a secret coup to skew results of a forum and community that's trying their best to be objective and learn about basketball... then I find that pretty strange personally, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it's pretty unambiguously against the rules of the forum and the project, so it really shouldn't be hard to get that there should be consequences for breaking the rules.

In the post I linked, Top10 says "What problems did new posters (such as myself) create", in reference to the 10 new posters who DoctorMJ confirmed were alts or sock puppet accounts. So yes, in the post I linked, they admit they're one of the posters in question.

Anyways, I've said my piece about what I think would be best for the next peaks project, and I doubt relitigating the scandal here will be be productive.

[70sFan]

I will wait for more contribution from the rest of voting panel, but I will make the decision tomorrow and I think we are ready to start!

About eras - I agree that 1976 naturally should be in the first era, so this is how all eras look now:

Pre-merger: 1950-76 NBA+ ABA seasons
Post-merger: 1977-00
21st century: 2001-25

We will start with the 21st century era, 4 votes per one ballot for the first 2 spots. I will count the votes using Kemeny model.

[Peregrine01]

See this thread here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2470670

In short, OhayoKD and AEnigma both turned out to be previously banned posters, who had made second accounts to avoid the ban. Then OhayoKD made a series of 10 alts and sock puppet accounts. It was organized on some private discord. Then the group, led by OhayoKD and AEnigma, attempted an organized coup/conspiracy with the goal of trying to skew the results of the recent cancelled RealGM Peaks project (and potentially in threads/projects before that) specifically to vote Jordan as low as possible (and presumably to skew the results to be lower on players they thought were similar to Jordan or would make Jordan look good, while being high on players they though would make good replacements for Jordan and would make Jordan look bad). This isn't just my speculating -- it's confirmed by a well trusted mod who's been with this forum for decades, and who has evidence from multiple sources.

The full list of the 10 alts/sock puppets who participated in the scandal hasn't been released, but like jake said, unfortunately Elpolo_14 and Top10alltime are confirmed members. OhayoKD admitted Elpolo_14 was one of the members (see screenshot above), and Top10alltime came forward themselves in post 21 of the Scandal thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119439244#p119439244).

It's hard to know whether they're truly alts or "just" sock puppet accounts who still participated in the scandal. LA Bird said above, an alt would surely continue to act like they weren't an alt to avoid getting banned... even if they were an alt. It's a big game of Secret Hitler or Mafia or Among Us... the very scenario makes it hard to trust what someone involved says, even if they are telling the truth. In the case they are other people, DoctorMJ thought it would be best to give them a second chance, and ask them to not try the scandal again.

But even if those two posters are separate people, by being involved in the scandal, they surely knew what was going on, surely knew that Ohayo and AEnigma were originally banned and were using alts, and surely knew the coup was against project/forum rules. So unless they happen to be double agents who admitted to DoctorMJ in secret what was going on, they still broke forum rules and participated in a scandal to skew the results specifically against Jordan in the previous cancelled greatest peaks project.

If one were trying to compromise, another option is to not let them vote in the first ~10/15 ranks of any of the eras. The goal was to make Jordan lower, but the coup did that by being higher on other all-time players across all eras, and also by trying to be lower on players they thought would make Jordan look worse (e.g. other off-ball hybrid scoring guards or lower on guard defense) or higher on players they thought would make LeBron look better (e.g. other on-ball heliocentric players), and those efforts persist across all eras. But it was primarily around Jordan, so waiting for Jordan to be voted in seems like a minimum requirement.

But again, with no offense to those accounts if they are indeed separate people (not alts), if someone did participate in a scandal to rig the previous realgm peaks project, it seems sensible to not give them a vote in the next peaks project, which had to be redone to avoid the scandal they participated in. Even if they're not alts, they still participated in the coup. The majority of the board wanted some sort of filter to make sure voting members had enough quality posts/time on the forum (even if the ideal threshold was debated) to avoid a situation like this, and I tend to agree with them.

But that's just me. In the possibility that they are separate people and not alts, I'm all for them participating in the discussion without voting.

Um the post you're saying was an admission from top10alltime and you linked is saying a scripted poster was just having their own talking points or whatever they said put together and I don't think it was even talking about themselves? I kind of already was thinking this when I saw a bunch of the guys being accused defend themselves and get ignored but now that you're literally sorta just lying I think at best this whole scripting scandal was exaggerated and at worst this alot of this was drummed way up so we could do this whole what's your voter count or sign up time since that's how I guess you measure your d--k on an internet website from guys I literally only see post in peaks or the retro to say other guys can't vote were trying to be misleading so they can basically do republican voter suppression bs lol.


Like if the whole thing is people giving talking points or suggesting stuff to say or even just giving you your own stuff I'm pretty sure that doesn't make someone a sock account and the dude in that post never even says they did that. C'mon dude.

DoctorMJ said he had multiple sources of evidence confirming the scandal, and saying the 10 accounts were either alts or sock puppet accounts. I trust a guy who's been here for decades, and has a well-known history of being a great moderator and a constructive member of the community. If you think DoctorMJ or his multiple sources are mistaken/lying, take it up with him -- I'm just the messenger believing the experts here.

If you don't see an issue with banned posters making alts to get around being banned, or if you don't see the issue with making a secret coup to skew results of a forum and community that's trying their best to be objective and learn about basketball... then I find that pretty strange personally, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it's pretty unambiguously against the rules of the forum and the project, so it really shouldn't be hard to get that there should be consequences for breaking the rules.

In the post I linked, Top10 says "What problems did new posters (such as myself) create", in reference to the 10 new posters who DoctorMJ confirmed were alts or sock puppet accounts. So yes, in the post I linked, they admit they're one of the posters in question.

Anyways, I've said my piece about what I think would be best for the next peaks project, and I doubt relitigating the scandal here will be be productive.

I would say that OhayoKD making burner accounts to and1 or agree with himself is entirely within character. Dude isn’t even really a Lebron nuthugger he’s a true believer of himself. He wasn’t on here to debate or to learn but to soapbox his own views and despite viewing anyone he disagreed with to be hopelessly irrational and biased it seemed like he was on a crusade to refute the heretics and just annoyed everyone into submission. I think he enjoyed doing this given the 100 posts a day. A troll in every sense of the word.

[lessthanjake]

See this thread here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2470670

In short, OhayoKD and AEnigma both turned out to be previously banned posters, who had made second accounts to avoid the ban. Then OhayoKD made a series of 10 alts and sock puppet accounts. It was organized on some private discord. Then the group, led by OhayoKD and AEnigma, attempted an organized coup/conspiracy with the goal of trying to skew the results of the recent cancelled RealGM Peaks project (and potentially in threads/projects before that) specifically to vote Jordan as low as possible (and presumably to skew the results to be lower on players they thought were similar to Jordan or would make Jordan look good, while being high on players they though would make good replacements for Jordan and would make Jordan look bad). This isn't just my speculating -- it's confirmed by a well trusted mod who's been with this forum for decades, and who has evidence from multiple sources.

The full list of the 10 alts/sock puppets who participated in the scandal hasn't been released, but like jake said, unfortunately Elpolo_14 and Top10alltime are confirmed members. OhayoKD admitted Elpolo_14 was one of the members (see screenshot above), and Top10alltime came forward themselves in post 21 of the Scandal thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=119439244#p119439244).

It's hard to know whether they're truly alts or "just" sock puppet accounts who still participated in the scandal. LA Bird said above, an alt would surely continue to act like they weren't an alt to avoid getting banned... even if they were an alt. It's a big game of Secret Hitler or Mafia or Among Us... the very scenario makes it hard to trust what someone involved says, even if they are telling the truth. In the case they are other people, DoctorMJ thought it would be best to give them a second chance, and ask them to not try the scandal again.

But even if those two posters are separate people, by being involved in the scandal, they surely knew what was going on, surely knew that Ohayo and AEnigma were originally banned and were using alts, and surely knew the coup was against project/forum rules. So unless they happen to be double agents who admitted to DoctorMJ in secret what was going on, they still broke forum rules and participated in a scandal to skew the results specifically against Jordan in the previous cancelled greatest peaks project.

If one were trying to compromise, another option is to not let them vote in the first ~10/15 ranks of any of the eras. The goal was to make Jordan lower, but the coup did that by being higher on other all-time players across all eras, and also by trying to be lower on players they thought would make Jordan look worse (e.g. other off-ball hybrid scoring guards or lower on guard defense) or higher on players they thought would make LeBron look better (e.g. other on-ball heliocentric players), and those efforts persist across all eras. But it was primarily around Jordan, so waiting for Jordan to be voted in seems like a minimum requirement.

But again, with no offense to those accounts if they are indeed separate people (not alts), if someone did participate in a scandal to rig the previous realgm peaks project, it seems sensible to not give them a vote in the next peaks project, which had to be redone to avoid the scandal they participated in. Even if they're not alts, they still participated in the coup. The majority of the board wanted some sort of filter to make sure voting members had enough quality posts/time on the forum (even if the ideal threshold was debated) to avoid a situation like this, and I tend to agree with them.

But that's just me. In the possibility that they are separate people and not alts, I'm all for them participating in the discussion without voting.

Um the post you're saying was an admission from top10alltime and you linked is saying a scripted poster was just having their own talking points or whatever they said put together and I don't think it was even talking about themselves? I kind of already was thinking this when I saw a bunch of the guys being accused defend themselves and get ignored but now that you're literally sorta just lying I think at best this whole scripting scandal was exaggerated and at worst this alot of this was drummed way up so we could do this whole what's your voter count or sign up time since that's how I guess you measure your d--k on an internet website from guys I literally only see post in peaks or the retro to say other guys can't vote were trying to be misleading so they can basically do republican voter suppression bs lol.


Like if the whole thing is people giving talking points or suggesting stuff to say or even just giving you your own stuff I'm pretty sure that doesn't make someone a sock account and the dude in that post never even says they did that. C'mon dude.

DoctorMJ said he had multiple sources of evidence confirming the scandal, and saying the 10 accounts were either alts or sock puppet accounts. I trust a guy who's been here for decades, and has a well-known history of being a great moderator and a constructive member of the community. If you think DoctorMJ or his multiple sources are mistaken/lying, take it up with him -- I'm just the messenger believing the experts here.

If you don't see an issue with banned posters making alts to get around being banned, or if you don't see the issue with making a secret coup to skew results of a forum and community that's trying their best to be objective and learn about basketball... then I find that pretty strange personally, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it's pretty unambiguously against the rules of the forum and the project, so it really shouldn't be hard to get that there should be consequences for breaking the rules.

In the post I linked, Top10 says "What problems did new posters (such as myself) create", in reference to the 10 new posters who DoctorMJ confirmed were alts or sock puppet accounts. So yes, in the post I linked, they admit they're one of the posters in question.

Anyways, I've said my piece about what I think would be best for the next peaks project, and I doubt relitigating the scandal here will be be productive.

I hate to say it, but I think you’re likely responding to one of the OhayoKD alt accounts. More long-standing than some of the other ones and I don’t have concrete evidence, but if I had to do a draft of likely-OhayoKD-alt-accounts, it’d be my second pick, behind ShaqAttac (which has to be the first choice because it is just so obvious). When we know there’s lots of OhayoKD alts, and a poster doesn’t post very much but somehow was up on all the OhayoKD talking points and frequently makes meta-commentary about how much better OhayoKD’s arguments are than others, I’d say easily the most likely explanation is that it’s one of OhayoKD’s many alt accounts. (Of course, the fact that I don’t have concrete evidence of this beyond common sense from having read this poster’s posts does go to LA Bird’s point that there’s unfortunately a real negative effect on the community from knowing there’s tons of OhayoKD alts but not knowing exactly who they all are).

[One_and_Done]

I continue to be amazed ShaqAttac is allowed to participate in projects, given the obviously unserious way in which they post. If they're not a burner they are surely a parody account.

[Jaivl]

Count me in, I'll try to stick until the end.

EDIT: oh!!! Good to know you've dealt with the... erm... special guys.

I continue to be amazed ShaqAttac is allowed to participate in projects, given the obviously unserious way in which they post. If they're not a burner they are surely a parody account.

They are a burner.

[Djoker]

Those scripted accounts not being permabanned is already a huge compromise to me. You're free to come post in the threads and share your knowledge.

[tsherkin]

So, before I respond to some of these posts, I will note that I will cheerily defer to whatever 70s wants to do.

That said...

The majority of the people in the recent projects discussion/scandal thread seemed to favor some sort of filtering of who voted in these projects, so I tend to favor the popular opinion here. There were debates on the best way to filter voters in that thread, but it did seem like most people favored some sort of voter threshold.

Yes. And?

Yeah, I genuinely don’t know either way about Verticality, but FWIW Elpolo and Top10alltime are definitely two of the accounts directly implicated in the OhayoKD/AEnigma peaks project scandal. If they actually want to generate good discussion, then they’re perfectly free to do that whether they vote or not, but I’m a bit hesitant about giving votes in this redo peaks project to accounts that were amongst the alt/sock-puppet accounts that just caused the last peaks project to be shut down. I don’t feel overly strongly about voting panels though, since I definitely value the discussion more than the actual voting results.

I will say this. You can say what you want about them and their relationship to Ohayo, but they are not alts. I have spoken to both of them simultaneously with Ohayo, so unless she is THAT dedicated AND types over 200 wpm, it isn't her posting for them.

Again, whatever 70s wants to do is fine, but let's at least be accurate in how we refer to these people.

I think people are getting sidetracked by this "substance" discussion for these posters. AEngima and OhayoKD weren't banned because they lacked substance in their posts. So why would any account posting scripted answers from them have that problem? The solution here is really simple - mods announce all the accounts that were confirmed to be posting scripted votes, they get blacklisted, and we move on. But instead this mess is getting dragged out because the mods want to give the scripted accounts the benefit of the doubt but all they have accomplished is spread the doubt to every new account whether guilty or innocent.

So, they weren't banned. They weren't blacklisted. And unless that happens, then at some point, they do need to be permitted to reintegrate into the community. Sure, a 1-year threshold (or whatever is decided) is fine and all that, but given that no action was taken against them, the presumption then is that they are to be permitted to participate in the forum as with anyone else, after all.