Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[GLF]

I think its kinda unfair how RJ's production is looked at when a lot of the time he was playing with rookies and g-leaguers and given grenades on offence to try to create with no spacing. It was RJ and Dick trying to solo teams with IQ and Barnes in and out of the lineup. Or it would be RJ and Barnes and Barnes would just defer to RJ and leave him on an island to create out of nothing.

The fact that RJ can have the same level of offensive efficiency as someone like Franz Wagner (maxed out, highly touted) yet gets crapped on is funny. Franz is for sure the better defender and is physically larger, but if I can get Franz scoring and better passing with my 4th option I'm pretty satisfied. Pretty sure Franz is making a lot more than RJ is and will be as well.

RJ only played 16 games with IQ and Scottie all suited up in the same game all season last year. He was forced to play above his intended role and now gets crapped on for being forced to do it because everyone was injured around him. Remember how amazing he looked right before we traded Pascal 2 years ago?

In those 7 games he played with IQ/Scottie/Pascal, he averaged 19/7/3 on 55/39/76 (64%TS). With this new version that damn near doubled his AST% this past year, I think we can get similar offensive efficiency and more assists as well. If he can stay in the mid 70s as a FT shooter, that TS% will be spooky.

His path to becoming a clear positive player is clear and not unobtainable. Wouldn't be shocked one bit if by the deadline we have teams trying to trade FOR him

Agreed with pretty much all of this. I would just say that Franz has better offensive efficiency over his career than RJ. Where are you seeing them being similar? Now I’ll admit I’m only looking at TS%, but from what I saw Franz was more efficient. Other than those 32 games in 2023-2024 that RJ played with us he hasn’t really been that close to Franz efficiency wise. He’s not extremely far off but not very close either.

[HumbleRen]

RJ’s a really polarizing player it seems. I don’t quite understand it as I feel he’s been much better than expected from the Knicks where he was considerably pretty bad. If anything I’m pretty neutral, not bullish on keeping or trading him. We don’t have any home run picks waiting to take his spot at this time, but I’m not adverse to trading him either.

He’ll always be polarizing because of how much you have to augment your starting lineup to shield his defensive woes.

It’s just really hard to be a SG and be a bad defender on good to great teams in the NBA right now.
Celtics had Holiday/White.
Knicks got Mikal or OG playing the 2.
Pacers has Nembhard.
OKC has basically great defenders at the 2 at every position.
Nuggets got Braun.
Rockets had Amen Thompson and Brooks.
Clippers had Dunn.
Orlando had Black and Suggs.
Hawks got Dyson Daniels.


You just don’t really see great teams employ one way offensive players who score at a mid level efficiency rate unless they’re like an extremely efficient 3 way level advantage creator.

You can live with your PG or lead ball handler being a weak defender but your SG? That’s a tough pill to swallow.

[mihaic]

RJ’s a really polarizing player it seems. I don’t quite understand it as I feel he’s been much better than expected from the Knicks where he was considerably pretty bad. If anything I’m pretty neutral, not bullish on keeping or trading him. We don’t have any home run picks waiting to take his spot at this time, but I’m not adverse to trading him either.

He’ll always be polarizing because of how much you have to augment your starting lineup to shield his defensive woes.

It’s just really hard to be a SG and be a bad defender on good to great teams in the NBA right now.
Celtics had Holiday/White.
Knicks got Mikal or OG playing the 2.
Pacers has Nembhard.
OKC has basically great defenders at the 2 at every position.
Nuggets got Braun.
Rockets had Amen Thompson and Brooks.
Clippers had Dunn.
Orlando had Black and Suggs.
Hawks got Dyson Daniels.


You just don’t really see great teams employ one way offensive players who score at a mid level efficiency rate unless they’re like an extremely efficient 3 way level advantage creator.

You can live with your PG or lead ball handler being a weak defender but your SG? That’s a tough pill to swallow.

It depends, if the pg defends well they can exchange roles. Rj in second unit w⁰ith Shead, Mogbo could be very good.

[HumbleRen]

RJ’s a really polarizing player it seems. I don’t quite understand it as I feel he’s been much better than expected from the Knicks where he was considerably pretty bad. If anything I’m pretty neutral, not bullish on keeping or trading him. We don’t have any home run picks waiting to take his spot at this time, but I’m not adverse to trading him either.

He’ll always be polarizing because of how much you have to augment your starting lineup to shield his defensive woes.

It’s just really hard to be a SG and be a bad defender on good to great teams in the NBA right now.
Celtics had Holiday/White.
Knicks got Mikal or OG playing the 2.
Pacers has Nembhard.
OKC has basically great defenders at the 2 at every position.
Nuggets got Braun.
Rockets had Amen Thompson and Brooks.
Clippers had Dunn.
Orlando had Black and Suggs.
Hawks got Dyson Daniels.


You just don’t really see great teams employ one way offensive players who score at a mid level efficiency rate unless they’re like an extremely efficient 3 way level advantage creator.

You can live with your PG or lead ball handler being a weak defender but your SG? That’s a tough pill to swallow.

It depends, if the pg defends well they can exchange roles. Rj in second unit w⁰ith Shead, Mogbo could be very good.

It’s pretty hard finding starting caliber PG’s who are great on defence. That’s why most SG’s play the defensive role.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

He’ll always be polarizing because of how much you have to augment your starting lineup to shield his defensive woes.

It’s just really hard to be a SG and be a bad defender on good to great teams in the NBA right now.
Celtics had Holiday/White.
Knicks got Mikal or OG playing the 2.
Pacers has Nembhard.
OKC has basically great defenders at the 2 at every position.
Nuggets got Braun.
Rockets had Amen Thompson and Brooks.
Clippers had Dunn.
Orlando had Black and Suggs.
Hawks got Dyson Daniels.


You just don’t really see great teams employ one way offensive players who score at a mid level efficiency rate unless they’re like an extremely efficient 3 way level advantage creator.

You can live with your PG or lead ball handler being a weak defender but your SG? That’s a tough pill to swallow.

It depends, if the pg defends well they can exchange roles. Rj in second unit w⁰ith Shead, Mogbo could be very good.

It’s pretty hard finding starting caliber PG’s who are great on defence. That’s why most SG’s play the defensive role.

Probably should guard wings and rely on his strength. Too slow for guards imo

[HumbleRen]

It depends, if the pg defends well they can exchange roles. Rj in second unit w⁰ith Shead, Mogbo could be very good.

It’s pretty hard finding starting caliber PG’s who are great on defence. That’s why most SG’s play the defensive role.

Probably should guard wings and rely on his strength. Too slow for guards imo

He’ll probably guard the 4’s.

BI will be hidden on the opposite team’s worst offensive player, Scottie will be the primary wing defender. This is kinda what I mean by why he’s polarizing because you have to account for his defensive issues despite him not being a great surplus in impact.

Scottie should be playing off ball roaming defence but because RJ and BI are both poor defenders, we have to put him on primary wing stars.

[TGM]

I think its kinda unfair how RJ's production is looked at when a lot of the time he was playing with rookies and g-leaguers and given grenades on offence to try to create with no spacing. It was RJ and Dick trying to solo teams with IQ and Barnes in and out of the lineup. Or it would be RJ and Barnes and Barnes would just defer to RJ and leave him on an island to create out of nothing.

The fact that RJ can have the same level of offensive efficiency as someone like Franz Wagner (maxed out, highly touted) yet gets crapped on is funny. Franz is for sure the better defender and is physically larger, but if I can get Franz scoring and better passing with my 4th option I'm pretty satisfied. Pretty sure Franz is making a lot more than RJ is and will be as well.

RJ only played 16 games with IQ and Scottie all suited up in the same game all season last year. He was forced to play above his intended role and now gets crapped on for being forced to do it because everyone was injured around him. Remember how amazing he looked right before we traded Pascal 2 years ago?

In those 7 games he played with IQ/Scottie/Pascal, he averaged 19/7/3 on 55/39/76 (64%TS). With this new version that damn near doubled his AST% this past year, I think we can get similar offensive efficiency and more assists as well. If he can stay in the mid 70s as a FT shooter, that TS% will be spooky.

His path to becoming a clear positive player is clear and not unobtainable. Wouldn't be shocked one bit if by the deadline we have teams trying to trade FOR him

I like RJ, but just worry more about fit. If RJs FT was better he would fit the team a lot better. I can even accept the inconsistent 3PT shooting. However, he is hard to play on the floor with Barnes and Jakob when those guys can’t be relied on hitting two FTs when the game is on the line

[tsherkin]

I think its kinda unfair how RJ's production is looked at when a lot of the time he was playing with rookies and g-leaguers and given grenades on offence to try to create with no spacing. It was RJ and Dick trying to solo teams with IQ and Barnes in and out of the lineup. Or it would be RJ and Barnes and Barnes would just defer to RJ and leave him on an island to create out of nothing.

The problem is how much effort needs to go into making him a viable player in the way we need to use him for him to be worth our time, you know? It significantly impacts his overall utility because of how exacting and specific the environment needs for him not to be violently inefficient, particularly when a lot of that stems from his own inadequacy. In most players, that would just be written off as "he isn't worth it in this role," as is often said of him.

Here, we don't really have that luxury, and there is any path at all to us being able to use him somewhat effectively, so we're trying to milk every last bit of value out of what we have. That leaves an opportunity for him, but it's hard to ignore that he isn't really a particularly good scorer due to his deficient FT shooting and weak finishing around the basket. I think most people have at least acknowledged that if we can lower his volume and arrange his shot profile in a more advantageous way, he could be a solid 3rd option or an acceptable second option in an ideal-performance type of scenario.

I don't think anyone cares about a 7-game sample, because those are about as worthless as they come. We do know that he played about 35 games with us right after the trade doing almost nothing but shooting inside 10 feet and taking 3s, and that worked out well for us. And we know that he can move well off-ball, he can hit from the corners and that he's about the only real rim pressure we have. Those are things we can work with, but if we're expecting 64% TS out of him, then we're just deluding ourselves. If we can get him to league-average efficiency, that would be a coup for us. If he's doing that at like 17+ ppg, then we are getting good value from him.

And it's definitely reasonable to expect that he should look at least a little better with BI and Quick on the floor, especially at reduced volume. He isn't a good 3pt shooter and he has absolutely no middle game, but if we can get him to like 16-17 points per game on 12 FGA/g or so, then we're in good shape. And that isn't an unreasonable hope. He might be a little better than that if literally everything goes super well, but that's asking a lot from a guy who has serially proven that he can't really hack it at 14-17 FGA/g, you know?

[DreamTeam09]

For what it's worth, Orlando fans are complaining & hoping for Wagner's 3ball to turn around too, so I guess it's not just our fan base

[tsherkin]

For what it's worth, Orlando fans are complaining & hoping for Wagner's 3ball to turn around too, so I guess it's not just our fan base

Wagner has his issues as well. The inability he and Banchero have been displaying as far as efficient scoring has significantly limited their team offense. He's always been inconsistent past the foul line, but his regression from 3 is at least a little surprising these past two seasons.

[JB7]

For what it's worth, Orlando fans are complaining & hoping for Wagner's 3ball to turn around too, so I guess it's not just our fan base

Wagner has his issues as well. The inability he and Banchero have been displaying as far as efficient scoring has significantly limited their team offense. He's always been inconsistent past the foul line, but his regression from 3 is at least a little surprising these past two seasons.

Orlando is going to still have a lot of issues on O. 3 of their 4 core players are inefficient from 3, and have TS% in the mid .500's or lower.

Bane is not solving all of those issues, and I worry his numbers could plummet as well, if defenses are able to focus on him more, since he doesn't have a lot of support beyond the 3pt line.

Orlando is being set up for a season of significant disappointment, as most have them penciled in as the 3rd best team in the East.

[tsherkin]

Orlando is going to still have a lot of issues on O. 3 of their 4 core players are inefficient from 3, and have TS% in the mid .500's or lower.

Yep. Unless they see significant improvement from at least one of their top 2 guys, they'll have some issues. Bane will help, especially with spacing and stuff, but Banchero needs to actually hit shots and Wagner needs to hit his 3s.

Orlando is being set up for a season of significant disappointment, as most have them penciled in as the 3rd best team in the East.

They'll be fine. They improved. They may not be exceptional, but they addressed a core weakness and there are two teams missing from the East who were relevant last year. Orlando will likely be in the second round or later this year.

[YogurtProducer]

They'll be fine. They improved. They may not be exceptional, but they addressed a core weakness and there are two teams missing from the East who were relevant last year. Orlando will likely be in the second round or later this year.

They really didn't, though.

Bane for his career has been a 41% from 3 on 6.3 3's a night. Likely closer to 7 due to his rookie year but immaterial.

Magic gave up KCP and Cole Anthony. Those guys were 1st, and 5th, on their team in 3PA and 3PM last year, and were 1st/2nd on their team in 3P% amongst rotation guys.

So they got rid of their top 2 shooters, replaced them with 1 better shooter, and still have a roster of primarily non-shooters. Is Bane better than KCP? ABSOLUTELY. Is Bane soooo much better than KCP in that role that we can lock them into some major improvement? eh....

Teams are gonna load up on Bane when he is the only shooter, and force the rest of the inefficient shooters to try and score. There is a reason why KCP saw his %'s fall in ORL and a big reason why is because teams can more easily defend a single shooter, than a team that has 3+ shooters. When the ball is swinging, and you see in front of you Bane, Suggs, and Paolo.. I know which shooter I am running out to.

They are projected to start Suggs/Bane/Paolo/Franz/WCJ - aka, one above average shooter
Their bench is Jones/Richardson/Black/Silva/Issaac/Wagner - aka, one above average shooter

I just don't think it's gonna be pretty. A great defence, as the 2022-24 Raptors and 2024-25 Magic have proven, is a great floor raiser. It is not a great ceiling raiser, and they're gonna struggle offensively, again.

[tsherkin]

So they got rid of their top 2 shooters, replaced them with 1 better shooter, and still have a roster of primarily non-shooters. Is Bane better than KCP? ABSOLUTELY. Is Bane soooo much better than KCP in that role that we can lock them into some major improvement? eh....

"Major improvement" is likely an exaggeration, I agree.

But Bane IS a 20 ppg scorer type of guy. That draws more attention than someone who is nothing except a C+S threat. It means they can likely ease some volume off of Banchero and Wagner, which should be a positive thing as well. Don't forget, Bane can iso and run PnR a little bit, enough that he isn't JUST a shooter.

[YogurtProducer]

So they got rid of their top 2 shooters, replaced them with 1 better shooter, and still have a roster of primarily non-shooters. Is Bane better than KCP? ABSOLUTELY. Is Bane soooo much better than KCP in that role that we can lock them into some major improvement? eh....

"Major improvement" is likely an exaggeration, I agree.

But Bane IS a 20 ppg scorer type of guy. That draws more attention than someone who is nothing except a C+S threat. It means they can likely ease some volume off of Banchero and Wagner, which should be a positive thing as well. Don't forget, Bane can iso and run PnR a little bit, enough that he isn't JUST a shooter.

Sure, but to me a serious team is not having Bane running iso or PnR, especially when teams can LOAD up on that when he has 0 shooting threats around him.

I just don't think Orlando is ever going to be a serious team unless Franz/Paolo/Suggs become plus shooters themselves. IT is very similar to the OG/Siakam/Barnes thing. I understand why both teams do/did it, but the long-term goal for either of those franchises is to trade one of those pieces for an upgrade.

51.5 wins for ORL just feels like a smash under.

[tsherkin]

Sure, but to me a serious team is not having Bane running iso or PnR, especially when teams can LOAD up on that when he has 0 shooting threats around him.

A serious team wouldn't spam him in that set, for sure, but a serious team would also take advantage of his ability to do more than roam and C+S.

I just don't think Orlando is ever going to be a serious team unless Franz/Paolo/Suggs become plus shooters themselves.

They will remain beneath contention level until/unless one of them takes the leap, that's certainly true enough.

[Badonkadonk]

I think its kinda unfair how RJ's production is looked at when a lot of the time he was playing with rookies and g-leaguers and given grenades on offence to try to create with no spacing. It was RJ and Dick trying to solo teams with IQ and Barnes in and out of the lineup. Or it would be RJ and Barnes and Barnes would just defer to RJ and leave him on an island to create out of nothing.

The fact that RJ can have the same level of offensive efficiency as someone like Franz Wagner (maxed out, highly touted) yet gets crapped on is funny. Franz is for sure the better defender and is physically larger, but if I can get Franz scoring and better passing with my 4th option I'm pretty satisfied. Pretty sure Franz is making a lot more than RJ is and will be as well.

RJ only played 16 games with IQ and Scottie all suited up in the same game all season last year. He was forced to play above his intended role and now gets crapped on for being forced to do it because everyone was injured around him. Remember how amazing he looked right before we traded Pascal 2 years ago?

In those 7 games he played with IQ/Scottie/Pascal, he averaged 19/7/3 on 55/39/76 (64%TS). With this new version that damn near doubled his AST% this past year, I think we can get similar offensive efficiency and more assists as well. If he can stay in the mid 70s as a FT shooter, that TS% will be spooky.

His path to becoming a clear positive player is clear and not unobtainable. Wouldn't be shocked one bit if by the deadline we have teams trying to trade FOR him

Agreed with pretty much all of this. I would just say that Franz has better offensive efficiency over his career than RJ. Where are you seeing them being similar? Now I’ll admit I’m only looking at TS%, but from what I saw Franz was more efficient. Other than those 32 games in 2023-2024 that RJ played with us he hasn’t really been that close to Franz efficiency wise. He’s not extremely far off but not very close either.

Also RJ is just 1 year older than Franz, which is wild to me given how long he's been in the league already.

While not as good as Franz's, RJ's D improved significantly over the course of the year as well. Really interested to see if he can keep that trajectory up this year.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I think its kinda unfair how RJ's production is looked at when a lot of the time he was playing with rookies and g-leaguers and given grenades on offence to try to create with no spacing. It was RJ and Dick trying to solo teams with IQ and Barnes in and out of the lineup. Or it would be RJ and Barnes and Barnes would just defer to RJ and leave him on an island to create out of nothing.

The fact that RJ can have the same level of offensive efficiency as someone like Franz Wagner (maxed out, highly touted) yet gets crapped on is funny. Franz is for sure the better defender and is physically larger, but if I can get Franz scoring and better passing with my 4th option I'm pretty satisfied. Pretty sure Franz is making a lot more than RJ is and will be as well.

RJ only played 16 games with IQ and Scottie all suited up in the same game all season last year. He was forced to play above his intended role and now gets crapped on for being forced to do it because everyone was injured around him. Remember how amazing he looked right before we traded Pascal 2 years ago?

In those 7 games he played with IQ/Scottie/Pascal, he averaged 19/7/3 on 55/39/76 (64%TS). With this new version that damn near doubled his AST% this past year, I think we can get similar offensive efficiency and more assists as well. If he can stay in the mid 70s as a FT shooter, that TS% will be spooky.

His path to becoming a clear positive player is clear and not unobtainable. Wouldn't be shocked one bit if by the deadline we have teams trying to trade FOR him

Agreed with pretty much all of this. I would just say that Franz has better offensive efficiency over his career than RJ. Where are you seeing them being similar? Now I’ll admit I’m only looking at TS%, but from what I saw Franz was more efficient. Other than those 32 games in 2023-2024 that RJ played with us he hasn’t really been that close to Franz efficiency wise. He’s not extremely far off but not very close either.

Last season's averages

[WiggOuts]

The one thing i will give RJ that gives him a good shot to last here is hes a hard worker and not a finished product. He gives me Derozan vibes in terms of working on his game and hes definitely trended upward since he got here. I dont think he wants to leave and as a player how could he not be excited for this upcoming season where they can actually make the POs.

He still has untapped potential and is young enough to realize it. Hes one of those guys where it really doesnt make sense to trade him because whatever you get probably wont be as good of an asset as he could be.

[Spida888]

RJ is extension eligible on Oct 1. It'll be interesting to see if any news come out of that.

Given the new CBA, if he re-signs at a lower AAV say low 20s, it'd be more palatable to keep him around due to our tax situation. It may increase his trade value as well.

If no extension can be done, he's probably a goner.