Kawhi vs. Vince: Who’s the Bigger Raptors Legend?

[ImmortalD24]

May I be so bold as to reframe the discussion as follows?

Bigger Toronto legend? Vince.

Bigger Raptors legend? Kawhi.

(This is very dumb, but I also think it’s kind of correct)

Yup. Kawhi is pretty much a 1 year George Mikan. Grand scheme of things he'll be in the shadows if the Raptors win more rings. But Vince will be looked at like say an Elgin Baylor. More celebrated by fans given his popularity and style even though he contributed to zero championships as a player.

[YogurtProducer]

Either way you yourself mentioned the players who were impacted by Vince, again all those players mentioned & listed echoed those sentiments, they aren't just mine

Sure, but they were most likely equally, if not more effected, by the simple fact there was a Canadian NBA team. If not Vince - it would have been someone else who was our "star".

It is just insane to suggest in 5-10 years the championship run, and Kawhi, wont be propped up as an important part of Raptors lore If anything, the championship is going to sink Vince's history with the team. No longer is our apex a guy who did cool dunks. We have an actual championship with guys who actually accomplished something.

Kids growing up now will look to that. Not to Vince **** Carter.

[YogurtProducer]

I mentioned it in my first post, but I think it’s a good test:

When you think of the Toronto Raptors, who do you think of first?

When you think of Vince Carter, which team do you think of first?

When you think of Kawhi Leonard, which team do you think of first?

Lowry / Raptors / Raptors... But that is because I am a Raptors fan

But thinking of the Raptors first when you think of Carter really doesn't mean much. It just means he accomplished nothing in his career. I also think of the Raptors when I think of Derozan, or Valanciunas, or FVV, or Siakam.. but they are certainly not bigger Toronto legends.

[CPT]

I mentioned it in my first post, but I think it’s a good test:

When you think of the Toronto Raptors, who do you think of first?

When you think of Vince Carter, which team do you think of first?

When you think of Kawhi Leonard, which team do you think of first?

Lowry / Raptors / Raptors... But that is because I am a Raptors fan

But thinking of the Raptors first when you think of Carter really doesn't mean much. It just means he accomplished nothing in his career. I also think of the Raptors when I think of Derozan, or Valanciunas, or FVV, or Siakam.. but they are certainly not bigger Toronto legends.

You have to do both, lol.

Raptors? Carter. Carter? Raptors.

The first one is most important, and the second one is a check. It could be used to establish the strongest connection of a player who played on a few teams, but you’re right that in isolation it doesn’t mean much.

The second might not be necessary, as I can’t think of too many players who would fail at that level (Orlando? Shaq. Shaq? Lakers?), but it may have a few applications if you really go down the list.

[RonaldArtest]

I voted VC just for taking the organization on a relevancy level another step in its infant stages, but can’t fault anyone who says Kawhi. That performance vs the 76ers, when the rest of the team was terrified to shoot the ball, was something I’ve honestly never seen before.

[SaveTheHens]

A championship for the raps is lucky if you get it once in your lifetime.. esp with the doom n gloom media n sometimes fans surrounding it all.. nice to see the team break through towards something lasting.
Vince? Like nice start to the franchise n cool superstar player but left nothing lasting. Kawhi played like prime jordan that playoffs n im glad we got to utilize it. Greed n games n influences sours things after but he got the job done like no other.

[YogurtProducer]

I mentioned it in my first post, but I think it’s a good test:

When you think of the Toronto Raptors, who do you think of first?

When you think of Vince Carter, which team do you think of first?

When you think of Kawhi Leonard, which team do you think of first?

Lowry / Raptors / Raptors... But that is because I am a Raptors fan

But thinking of the Raptors first when you think of Carter really doesn't mean much. It just means he accomplished nothing in his career. I also think of the Raptors when I think of Derozan, or Valanciunas, or FVV, or Siakam.. but they are certainly not bigger Toronto legends.

You have to do both, lol.

Raptors? Carter. Carter? Raptors.

The first one is most important, and the second one is a check. It could be used to establish the strongest connection of a player who played on a few teams, but you’re right that in isolation it doesn’t mean much.

The second might not be necessary, as I can’t think of too many players who would fail at that level (Orlando? Shaq. Shaq? Lakers?), but it may have a few applications if you really go down the list.

I guess I don’t think VC is the first player that comes to mind anymore for Raptors. I’d argue Lowry / Demar both get thought of first, but recency bias is strong there.

I feel like every year that passes VC comes less relevant. Winning the ship cemented that he wasn’t as important anymore. We had actual accomplishments to be proud of. Not a fancy player who won a round and never even 50 games.

[Tacoma]

Lowry / Raptors / Raptors... But that is because I am a Raptors fan

But thinking of the Raptors first when you think of Carter really doesn't mean much. It just means he accomplished nothing in his career. I also think of the Raptors when I think of Derozan, or Valanciunas, or FVV, or Siakam.. but they are certainly not bigger Toronto legends.

You have to do both, lol.

Raptors? Carter. Carter? Raptors.

The first one is most important, and the second one is a check. It could be used to establish the strongest connection of a player who played on a few teams, but you’re right that in isolation it doesn’t mean much.

The second might not be necessary, as I can’t think of too many players who would fail at that level (Orlando? Shaq. Shaq? Lakers?), but it may have a few applications if you really go down the list.

I guess I don’t think VC is the first player that comes to mind anymore for Raptors. I’d argue Lowry / Demar both get thought of first, but recency bias is strong there.

I feel like every year that passes VC comes less relevant. Winning the ship cemented that he wasn’t as important anymore. We had actual accomplishments to be proud of. Not a fancy player who won a round and never even 50 games.

That’s why, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. But a legend should be timeless. To use a silly example, Genghis Khan is still a legend some 800 years later.

Vince led a bad team to its first playoff series win against the hated Knicks and to within a Game 7 buzzer beater shot of making the ECP. That team without Vince would be a lottery team.

Kawhi led us to a ring with a great team that won 53 wins a year later without him. They are both Raptors legends in their own right but I would give Vince the nod if these are the only 2 choices. Someone who never wanted to play for the Raptors and took the first train out here using the Raptors as leverage to scheme his way to LA should not be the greatest Toronto Raptors legend.

[asuran]

Bigger Raptors Legend
Undoubtedly, Vince Carter.

Anywhere in the world when talking about Raptors, the 1st name that pops up is and always will be Vince Carter.

Anyone that says otherwise, has never spend time outside of Canada and talked sports with the locals.

---

However when it comes to greatest achievement, then yes, Kawhi Leonard for bringing us the Championship, no doubt.

[rapz101]

I get it. Vince put the Raptors on the map. Brought the love of basketball to a generation of basketball players we are enjoying in the NBA today (shoutout team Canada). I personally prefer the number 15 be retired for Amir Johnson before VC. So in short, I am choosing the guy who brought our first chip to Canada, even if he did leave the year after.

My self respect won’t allow me to choose a guy who quit on us despite all the BS he dealt with the organization. Not to rehash the whole VC-Raptors saga, but I can’t get over how he quit on us. I can’t, not now, not ever. I want to celebrate winners and people who wanted to be here, and VC did not. So no, VC isn’t the correct choice.

[Mikistan]

You have to do both, lol.

Raptors? Carter. Carter? Raptors.

The first one is most important, and the second one is a check. It could be used to establish the strongest connection of a player who played on a few teams, but you’re right that in isolation it doesn’t mean much.

The second might not be necessary, as I can’t think of too many players who would fail at that level (Orlando? Shaq. Shaq? Lakers?), but it may have a few applications if you really go down the list.

I guess I don’t think VC is the first player that comes to mind anymore for Raptors. I’d argue Lowry / Demar both get thought of first, but recency bias is strong there.

I feel like every year that passes VC comes less relevant. Winning the ship cemented that he wasn’t as important anymore. We had actual accomplishments to be proud of. Not a fancy player who won a round and never even 50 games.

That’s why, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. But a legend should be timeless. To use a silly example, Genghis Khan is still a legend some 800 years later.

Vince led a bad team to its first playoff series win against the hated Knicks and to within a Game 7 buzzer beater shot of making the ECP. That team without Vince would be a lottery team.

Kawhi led us to a ring with a great team that won 53 wins a year later without him. They are both Raptors legends in their own right but I would give Vince the nod if these are the only 2 choices. Someone who never wanted to play for the Raptors and took the first train out here using the Raptors as leverage to scheme his way to LA should not be the greatest Toronto Raptors legend.

Vince didnt take the first train out, instead he salted the earth on his way out demanding trades and tanking his own value with his uninspired play. Funny how you don't type that when comparing above. Oh he missed a game 7 buzzer beater shot???? And what did Kawhi do? Oh right.

[YogurtProducer]

You have to do both, lol.

Raptors? Carter. Carter? Raptors.

The first one is most important, and the second one is a check. It could be used to establish the strongest connection of a player who played on a few teams, but you’re right that in isolation it doesn’t mean much.

The second might not be necessary, as I can’t think of too many players who would fail at that level (Orlando? Shaq. Shaq? Lakers?), but it may have a few applications if you really go down the list.

I guess I don’t think VC is the first player that comes to mind anymore for Raptors. I’d argue Lowry / Demar both get thought of first, but recency bias is strong there.

I feel like every year that passes VC comes less relevant. Winning the ship cemented that he wasn’t as important anymore. We had actual accomplishments to be proud of. Not a fancy player who won a round and never even 50 games.

That’s why, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. But a legend should be timeless. To use a silly example, Genghis Khan is still a legend some 800 years later.

Vince led a bad team to its first playoff series win against the hated Knicks and to within a Game 7 buzzer beater shot of making the ECP. That team without Vince would be a lottery team.

Kawhi led us to a ring with a great team that won 53 wins a year later without him. They are both Raptors legends in their own right but I would give Vince the nod if these are the only 2 choices. Someone who never wanted to play for the Raptors and took the first train out here using the Raptors as leverage to scheme his way to LA should not be the greatest Toronto Raptors legend.

So a missed game 7 buzzer beater, and forcing a trade > a made game 7 buzzer beater and leaving in free agency?

Make it make sense.

[asuran]

I guess I don’t think VC is the first player that comes to mind anymore for Raptors. I’d argue Lowry / Demar both get thought of first, but recency bias is strong there.

I feel like every year that passes VC comes less relevant. Winning the ship cemented that he wasn’t as important anymore. We had actual accomplishments to be proud of. Not a fancy player who won a round and never even 50 games.

That’s why, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. But a legend should be timeless. To use a silly example, Genghis Khan is still a legend some 800 years later.

Vince led a bad team to its first playoff series win against the hated Knicks and to within a Game 7 buzzer beater shot of making the ECP. That team without Vince would be a lottery team.

Kawhi led us to a ring with a great team that won 53 wins a year later without him. They are both Raptors legends in their own right but I would give Vince the nod if these are the only 2 choices. Someone who never wanted to play for the Raptors and took the first train out here using the Raptors as leverage to scheme his way to LA should not be the greatest Toronto Raptors legend.

So a missed game 7 buzzer beater, and forcing a trade > a made game 7 buzzer beater and leaving in free agency?

Make it make sense.

Longevity as a Raptor and synonymous with the name Raptors.
Question of the thread is, who is bigger Raptors "Legend"

If question was greatest achievement as a Raptor then it is Kawhi until the our next superstar that takes us all the way.

[Mikistan]

That’s why, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. But a legend should be timeless. To use a silly example, Genghis Khan is still a legend some 800 years later.

Vince led a bad team to its first playoff series win against the hated Knicks and to within a Game 7 buzzer beater shot of making the ECP. That team without Vince would be a lottery team.

Kawhi led us to a ring with a great team that won 53 wins a year later without him. They are both Raptors legends in their own right but I would give Vince the nod if these are the only 2 choices. Someone who never wanted to play for the Raptors and took the first train out here using the Raptors as leverage to scheme his way to LA should not be the greatest Toronto Raptors legend.

So a missed game 7 buzzer beater, and forcing a trade > a made game 7 buzzer beater and leaving in free agency?

Make it make sense.

Longevity as a Raptor and synonymous with the name Raptors.
Question of the thread is, who is bigger Raptors "Legend"

If question was greatest achievement as a Raptor then it is Kawhi until the our next superstar that takes us all the way.

Vince is the answer to the question: Who is the most legendary quitter in raptors history?

[YogurtProducer]

That’s why, as the saying goes, time heals all wounds. But a legend should be timeless. To use a silly example, Genghis Khan is still a legend some 800 years later.

Vince led a bad team to its first playoff series win against the hated Knicks and to within a Game 7 buzzer beater shot of making the ECP. That team without Vince would be a lottery team.

Kawhi led us to a ring with a great team that won 53 wins a year later without him. They are both Raptors legends in their own right but I would give Vince the nod if these are the only 2 choices. Someone who never wanted to play for the Raptors and took the first train out here using the Raptors as leverage to scheme his way to LA should not be the greatest Toronto Raptors legend.

So a missed game 7 buzzer beater, and forcing a trade > a made game 7 buzzer beater and leaving in free agency?

Make it make sense.

Longevity as a Raptor and synonymous with the name Raptors.
Question of the thread is, who is bigger Raptors "Legend"

If question was greatest achievement as a Raptor then it is Kawhi until the our next superstar that takes us all the way.

Okay, then it’s Lowry.

Carter won a dunk contest lol

[Soldier]

Vince put the sport of basketball on the map here. He was in Toronto for 6 seasons, so he had enough time to display his talent, eventually people would have noticed him anyway, and of course they did during the entire Vinsanity/ACC= Air Canada Carter Era.

Kawhi finally put the Raptors on top. He was only here for one season. But what a year it was!

Vince brought attention and visibility to the Raptors. But Kawhi brought the franchise credibility, respect and unforgettable moments to the fanbase.

Vince was spectacular, talented, and physically gifted. He was a box-office player who was very fun to watch. But he was inconsistent, immature, unprofessional, injury-prone, unpredictable, and selfish .

Kawhi was not as spectacular, but he was as exciting and talented as Vince.

He was also a much more complete player than him, unlike Vince he actually played defense and was great at it. I know he was often injured in LA but in Toronto he was healthy for the entirety of the playoffs. He was a model of consistency and professionalism when he played here, I don’t care if he left in free agency that summer. He was a much better playoff performer than Vince for sure.

Both players made their own mark on Raptors history. They both made an impact here, they both left a legacy here. Both players helped to make basketball more popular. Both players brought new fans to the sport and to the team. Both players were legends here for different reasons.

As for Vince, I guess time heals all wounds and forgives all sins. All is forgiven but not forgotten. I hated him at the time for his attitude and defection from the team. But after the championship, I let old grudges go.

As for Kawhi, to people who still view him as a greedy/selfish mercenary…read this below


It's a common theme in which sports fans in Canada unconsciously compare hockey players to basketball, football, soccer and baseball players. Baseball, football, soccer and basketball players are "lazy, entitled, greedy and selfish mercenaries " while hockey players are "good Canadian kids" who are humble, unselfish, and motivated by things other than money. It's mostly bull. As David Mamet wrote in Heist , "everybody needs money. That's why they call it money." That’s right, everyone needs and wants money and will do everything to get more of it. Let’s not be hypocrites.

There is also an unspoken but subtle racial aspect to this comparison that, roughly translated, comes out to "black players = greedy, self-centered. white players = virtuous, humble". That permeates the narratives of sports culture in Canada because hockey is still our national sport and the most popular sport here . It’s also the sport most dominated by white, Canadian born players.

At the end of the day, we need to stop pretending that a player's top priority is winning. They all want to win and they'd all like to win but first and foremost this is a job and a temporary one at that. When you play sports for a living your first, last and only priority is to get paid as much as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can because even a long career is only about a decade long and the prime earning years are about half that. You need to max out in your prime because for most of your life you won't be a pro athlete. You will sacrifice many future opportunities while pursuing the dream of being a pro athlete so if you achieve that dream you need to make up for lost time. Once your playing days are over you will still be relatively young and will probably need to figure out the rest of your life in terms of how you're going to earn a living with next to no relevant work skills unless you managed to make major bank during that playing career. That’s why I’m not mad when Kawhi made sure he got his money and also wanted to get more money outside basketball. Whatever. He got us a chip, so I gave him a pass for it. He can’t do wrong in my eyes after that.

Fans are the only ones who can never understand why a player even wants to get paid because they project themselves into the situation. Because we fans are not and never will be pro players, of course money doesn't matter to us. In fact, we would gladly pay the team for the privilege of realizing our dream. But the reality is that if you do make it to the show, you aren't a star struck fan anymore. You're a businessman. An independent contractor. And your job is to max out and get as much money you can.

Professional sports Owners in all leagues bend us over on the price of tickets, parking, concessions and merchandise, and we hardly bat an eye but we all get outraged and furious when a player/athlete won't take a hometown discount for our teams. And we never consider the fact that while any sports team owner could own and make money off their franchises for the rest of their life, an athlete or a player's ability to earn a living in professional sports is short and finite and could end at any time.

[Bank Shot]

Hmm, the guy who delivered us a championship vs. a guy who won a total of one playoff series with us (and who didn't even play very well in that one series win). Tough decision.

[LascelleL]

It's Vince, 1000000% Kawhi may have been the guy that got us over the hump but we still exalted Kyle Lowry from the championship.

[SharoneWright]

Vince all sizzle no steak. Legendary crybaby.

Kawhi all steak no sizzle. Legendary narcissist.

Neither are great legends tbh. But winning controls the choice.

It's too bad we didn't get the #1 overall pick in any other year than 2006. Because it could have been that guy.

[deck]

Vince put the sport of basketball on the map here. He was in Toronto for 6 seasons, so he had enough time to display his talent, eventually people would have noticed him anyway, and of course they did during the entire Vinsanity/ACC= Air Canada Carter Era.

Kawhi finally put the Raptors on top. He was only here for one season. But what a year it was!

Vince brought attention and visibility to the Raptors. But Kawhi brought the franchise credibility, respect and unforgettable moments to the fanbase.

Vince was spectacular, talented, and physically gifted. He was a box-office player who was very fun to watch. But he was inconsistent, immature, unprofessional, injury-prone, unpredictable, and selfish .

Kawhi was not as spectacular, but he was as exciting and talented as Vince.

He was also a much more complete player than him, unlike Vince he actually played defense and was great at it. I know he was often injured in LA but in Toronto he was healthy for the entirety of the playoffs. He was a model of consistency and professionalism when he played here, I don’t care if he left in free agency that summer. He was a much better playoff performer than Vince for sure.

Both players made their own mark on Raptors history. They both made an impact here, they both left a legacy here. Both players helped to make basketball more popular. Both players brought new fans to the sport and to the team. Both players were legends here for different reasons.

As for Vince, I guess time heals all wounds and forgives all sins. All is forgiven but not forgotten. I hated him at the time for his attitude and defection from the team. But after the championship, I let old grudges go.

As for Kawhi, to people who still view him as a greedy/selfish mercenary…read this below


It's a common theme in which sports fans in Canada unconsciously compare hockey players to basketball, football, soccer and baseball players. Baseball, football, soccer and basketball players are "lazy, entitled, greedy and selfish mercenaries " while hockey players are "good Canadian kids" who are humble, unselfish, and motivated by things other than money. It's mostly bull. As David Mamet wrote in Heist , "everybody needs money. That's why they call it money." That’s right, everyone needs and wants money and will do everything to get more of it. Let’s not be hypocrites.

There is also an unspoken but subtle racial aspect to this comparison that, roughly translated, comes out to "black players = greedy, self-centered. white players = virtuous, humble". That permeates the narratives of sports culture in Canada because hockey is still our national sport and the most popular sport here . It’s also the sport most dominated by white, Canadian born players.

At the end of the day, we need to stop pretending that a player's top priority is winning. They all want to win and they'd all like to win but first and foremost this is a job and a temporary one at that. When you play sports for a living your first, last and only priority is to get paid as much as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can because even a long career is only about a decade long and the prime earning years are about half that. You need to max out in your prime because for most of your life you won't be a pro athlete. You will sacrifice many future opportunities while pursuing the dream of being a pro athlete so if you achieve that dream you need to make up for lost time. Once your playing days are over you will still be relatively young and will probably need to figure out the rest of your life in terms of how you're going to earn a living with next to no relevant work skills unless you managed to make major bank during that playing career. That’s why I’m not mad when Kawhi made sure he got his money and also wanted to get more money outside basketball. Whatever. He got us a chip, so I gave him a pass for it. He can’t do wrong in my eyes after that.

Fans are the only ones who can never understand why a player even wants to get paid because they project themselves into the situation. Because we fans are not and never will be pro players, of course money doesn't matter to us. In fact, we would gladly pay the team for the privilege of realizing our dream. But the reality is that if you do make it to the show, you aren't a star struck fan anymore. You're a businessman. An independent contractor. And your job is to max out and get as much money you can.

Professional sports Owners in all leagues bend us over on the price of tickets, parking, concessions and merchandise, and we hardly bat an eye but we all get outraged and furious when a player/athlete won't take a hometown discount for our teams. And we never consider the fact that while any sports team owner could own and make money off their franchises for the rest of their life, an athlete or a player's ability to earn a living in professional sports is short and finite and could end at any time.

Kawhi being viewed as a mercenary has nothing to do with race or greed. It has to do with the fact that we could only keep him here for a short duration because he didn't want to be here long term. To suggest his decision to go back to LA is viewed in a negative light because he is black is not substantiated by anything you have posted here.