Update: It is time to trade Scottie Barnes before it's too late!

[Appostis]

To be fair it took the whole last season plus the 2 games. And he's now on a max contract and he should and will be judged accordingly, so he needs to turn it up. Media will be on his case too, with Masai out.

I expected him to be better at this stage, given his rookie year. For example Chris Bosh was better at the same stage of his career IIRC.

It's preseason..
"We're talking about preseason. Not a regular season game. Not a regular season game. Not a regular season game. We're talking about preseason."

Not sure I understand your post. Were u not reading what I wrote? See the item in bold font. I was simply saying that most people judge him based on the last season, plus the two pre-season games he played in the same mild and pattern. Scottie is a good player, just not yet at max contract level.
Read the post!

PS Don't be too angry, for your own sanity; it's just a discussion forum. Cheers!

Talking about preseason.

Take the L.. we're talking about preseason.

If you don't understand the famous quote that inspired my post.. that's two Ls

[dTox]

If he shows up looking like the same player, yet again, then yes, and you do it before the trade deadline.

[dballislife]

it sucks that approaching 5 years, scottie is forced into being a jump shooter on offense because he cant consistently dribble by anyone, doesn't post up, not good at cutting to basket, doesn't draw a lot of fouls, and of course can't spread the floor as off ball guy and hit the 3

[Troubadour]

In retrospect, the time to trade Scottie Barnes was in the summer of 2022 and for Kevin Durant.

A lineup of VanVleet / Anunoby / Durant / Siakam would have been an instant contender in the East.

[LoveMyRaps]

it sucks that approaching 5 years, scottie is forced into being a jump shooter on offense because he cant consistently dribble by anyone, doesn't post up, not good at cutting to basket, doesn't draw a lot of fouls, and of course can't spread the floor as off ball guy and hit the 3

And that's the frustrating part with Scottie. He's capable of doing those things (that I bolded) but he doesn't. Those should be his strengths.

For example:

Read on Twitter

In the video above, he has a 40 year old Middleton (sorry Kris) in front of him but he chooses to stop on a dime and settle for a short jumper.
TAKE IT TO HIS CHEST, BE MORE AGGRESSIVE AND ASSERTIVE. Middleton isn't even attempting to take a charge in this possession. He's literally at a massive disadvantage but Scottie bails him out instead of finishing at the rim or drawing a foul.

Scottie still doesn't realize how strong he is. Or chances are he does, but he's just a low IQ offensive player who chooses to play like the guard despite lacking the skillset needed to be one.

Annoys me when I see him floating around the 3pt line. He should be much closer to the paint.
Coaching staff needs to hold him accountable for his poor shot selection and inability to operate like a 3/4 on the offensive end.

[mihaic]

It's preseason..
"We're talking about preseason. Not a regular season game. Not a regular season game. Not a regular season game. We're talking about preseason."

Not sure I understand your post. Were u not reading what I wrote? See the item in bold font. I was simply saying that most people judge him based on the last season, plus the two pre-season games he played in the same mild and pattern. Scottie is a good player, just not yet at max contract level.
Read the post!

PS Don't be too angry, for your own sanity; it's just a discussion forum. Cheers!

Talking about preseason.

Take the L.. we're talking about preseason.

If you don't understand the famous quote that inspired my post.. that's two Ls

Enlighten me what's that famous quote and by who regarding preseason. I have no clue.

I know a similar one by Iverson but that's about practice not preseason. Lol if that's the one it's not obvious at all Cheers!

[Thaddy]

it sucks that approaching 5 years, scottie is forced into being a jump shooter on offense because he cant consistently dribble by anyone, doesn't post up, not good at cutting to basket, doesn't draw a lot of fouls, and of course can't spread the floor as off ball guy and hit the 3

And that's the frustrating part with Scottie. He's capable of doing those things (that I bolded) but he doesn't. Those should be his strengths.

For example:

Read on Twitter

In the video above, he has a 40 year old Middleton (sorry Kris) in front of him but he chooses to stop on a dime and settle for a short jumper.
TAKE IT TO HIS CHEST, BE MORE AGGRESSIVE AND ASSERTIVE. Middleton isn't even attempting to take a charge in this possession. He's literally at a massive disadvantage but Scottie bails him out instead of finishing at the rim or drawing a foul.

Scottie still doesn't realize how strong he is. Or chances are he does, but he's just a low IQ offensive player who chooses to play like the guard despite lacking the skillset needed to be one.

Annoys me when I see him floating around the 3pt line. He should be much closer to the paint.
Coaching staff needs to hold him accountable for his poor shot selection and inability to operate like a 3/4 on the offensive end.

Scottie has a knee injury he sat out a game for it and isn't even dunking in warm ups. I would give it more time. Preseason is a good time to get his mid range and shooting going. I'm all for that but don't drive hard and risk getting injured or aggravating an existing injury. He is doing pretty good despite that too, he's having a clear impact if you look at BPM.

[basketballto]

In retrospect, the time to trade Scottie Barnes was in the summer of 2022 and for Kevin Durant.

A lineup of VanVleet / Anunoby / Durant / Siakam would have been an instant contender in the East.

That short term move would have worked out terribly that playoff season then later in the off season where you end up paying 40 million for VanVleet and OG followed by a 5 year Siakam max. You have no depth paying the second cliff tax and getting bumped out of the playoffs first or second round. This year would have been bleak.

Glad we moved on from that core. Scotty is putting up stats no one else is. True Shooting is 52% slight below average but everything else is above average. Not all stars need to be one of the best shooters in the league to be a star. If he keeps being a quad-triple double machine he is doing more for this team to win than if he was putting up 27/3/3 with an above average TS%. This team doesn't need someone to take 10 more shots a game and score 10% more often than he is because we have better people already shooting 10% higher which ends up being 2 shots a game (4p). Scotty blocking two baskets a game already evens that advantage.

[Appostis]

Not sure I understand your post. Were u not reading what I wrote? See the item in bold font. I was simply saying that most people judge him based on the last season, plus the two pre-season games he played in the same mild and pattern. Scottie is a good player, just not yet at max contract level.
Read the post!

PS Don't be too angry, for your own sanity; it's just a discussion forum. Cheers!

Talking about preseason.

Take the L.. we're talking about preseason.

If you don't understand the famous quote that inspired my post.. that's two Ls

Enlighten me what's that famous quote and by who regarding preseason. I have no clue.

I know a similar one by Iverson but that's about practice not preseason. Lol if that's the one it's not obvious at all Cheers!

Very good!
Now...stop overreacting to preseason because... We're talking about preseason.

[mihaic]

Talking about preseason.

Take the L.. we're talking about preseason.

If you don't understand the famous quote that inspired my post.. that's two Ls

Enlighten me what's that famous quote and by who regarding preseason. I have no clue.

I know a similar one by Iverson but that's about practice not preseason. Lol if that's the one it's not obvious at all Cheers!

Very good!
Now...stop overreacting to preseason because... We're talking about preseason.

I am not overreacting and I don't care about preseason. Simply saying he needs to have a better season than the last one.

[Thaddy]

In retrospect, the time to trade Scottie Barnes was in the summer of 2022 and for Kevin Durant.

A lineup of VanVleet / Anunoby / Durant / Siakam would have been an instant contender in the East.

That short term move would have worked out terribly that playoff season then later in the off season where you end up paying 40 million for VanVleet and OG followed by a 5 year Siakam max. You have no depth paying the second cliff tax and getting bumped out of the playoffs first or second round. This year would have been bleak.

Glad we moved on from that core. Scotty is putting up stats no one else is. True Shooting is 52% slight below average but everything else is above average. Not all stars need to be one of the best shooters in the league to be a star. If he keeps being a quad-triple double machine he is doing more for this team to win than if he was putting up 27/3/3 with an above average TS%. This team doesn't need someone to take 10 more shots a game and score 10% more often than he is because we have better people already shooting 10% higher which ends up being 2 shots a game (4p). Scotty blocking two baskets a game already evens that advantage.

They should have sold much sooner than they did. If we got an all star level return for Fred, as we should have. Then we'd have enough to bring in a star. I'd guess we'd turn him into at least a prospect and a good first round pick.

Scottie is good and still our best player. He's grab and go, versatile defense, and developing a bag at a steady rate. Preseason is the time to try things and catch rhythm. During the season he'll likely be more aggressive for contact.

He will put up 18/8/7/1.5/1.5 and be All Defense level on 57% TS. That's my prediction.

[Appostis]

Enlighten me what's that famous quote and by who regarding preseason. I have no clue.

I know a similar one by Iverson but that's about practice not preseason. Lol if that's the one it's not obvious at all Cheers!

Very good!
Now...stop overreacting to preseason because... We're talking about preseason.

I am not overreacting and I don't care about preseason. Simply saying he needs to have a better season than the last one.

Last season was a tanking season with injuries throwing off any flow this roster might of had. It comes with a grain of salt.

Pre season is preseason.. *shrug*. Come December if he's still having the offensive impact we're seeing so far...then we can talk.

Not having JP in the lineup spoils and real sample.

[CPT]

In retrospect, the time to trade Scottie Barnes was in the summer of 2022 and for Kevin Durant.

A lineup of VanVleet / Anunoby / Durant / Siakam would have been an instant contender in the East.

I’m guessing this opinion won’t be popular, but it seems pretty clearly correct.

We would have been winning 50+ games a year, maybe some pretty deep playoff runs, outside chance at a championship. The horror.

You could even argue we’d still be in a better position right now, or at least in a better position to pivot to an actual rebuild.

[tsherkin]

The empty calories thing does not hold up either. Nineteen point nine points, eight rebounds, six assists, one and a half blocks, and over one steal per game at 22 years old is rare. His BPM was 3.9 and his defensive EPM was top ten among forwards. That is all impact, not hollow production.

He was the worst scorer in the league posting 19+ ppg last year. Don't waste key strokes trying to defend that. He was putrid. Absolutely awful. He was a terrible, TERRIBLE scorer last year. That's not something you're going to wash over with raw box score numbers.

The true shooting number is not ideal but context matters. He was initiating offense on a roster with poor spacing and no reliable secondary creator. You are treating him like a finisher when in reality he was asked to run the entire offense.

No. Context doesn't matter in this case. He sucked flaming ass body shots of terribleness as a scorer last year. He should suck less ass this year with better spacing, but at no point in his NBA career, or before, has he ever been a good scorer. He was never projected to be a good scorer. And he isn't. This is pretty straightforward and obvious.

He has other strengths and value, but scoring is absolutely the worst aspect of his game. He is not a guy you want shooting in any sort of meaningful volume. This is his SECOND season at such profoundly incompetent scoring efficiency, and the first one was as a tertiary type option. He just lacks too many tools and skills to ever be a scorer we want to lean on.

So, that's a bunch of angry vitriol, mostly in response to a really, really weak attempt to justify how incredibly dogcrap Scottie has been as a scorer (and without the excuse of significant volume responsibility, no less).

The flip side of this is that his defense is a strong point. He's a good rebounder. He moves the ball well in transition, which is nice. He is good at keying the break with defensive rebounding and pushing the ball. Those are traits we can leverage, so long as we have him give it up once we get into the halfcourt environment. That's a player we can work with, someone we can integrate into our broader plan, we just have to stop looking at him as a competent option in the halfcourt.

[tsherkin]

It's kind of funny that people can't see how good Scottie actually is. I think his dynamic style of play throws them off. He's like a futuristic player.

This is mostly because you're wrong. And it's been evident for a long time.

Scottie's a solid roleplayer who contributes well on D and as a transition playmaker, but he's too poor a scorer to merit the sort of fanaticism you devote toward him, which creates frustrating conversations. He isn't "like a futuristic player;" he's like a guy who can rebound well and make a decent basic pass in transition with some size who can't score well at all, and thus struggles to handle the level of responsibility our franchise keeps trying to force on him. We know he can't shoot reliably, we know he doesn't have elite quickness, we know he generally has a limited overall scoring skillset and we know that he hasn't really exhibited any serious improvement in most of his areas of weakness over his first four seasons. All of which matches his pre-draft scouting report.

Willful denial is the only way to really look at Scottie and say "hey, this guy is actually a perennial All-Star waiting to happen, we just aren't positioning him correctly, and that's why he was so profoundly useless as a scoring threat for his entire career to date." Actual quality scorers do better than this, even under adverse conditions.

We also know that if we could just put him into an appropriate role, he could be a very valuable supporting cast type player, and haven't really had the team do that the past several seasons because we've had a dearth of sufficient talent. We have overextended his role, paid him too much money and doubled down on how we want to use him, and that's all fairly stupid stuff born out of desperation on the part of our franchise. It's quite frustrating, but we haven't really had a better choice until this season with Ingram.

So I'm hoping we'll see BI stay relatively healthy, and then Scottie sliding into a role more appropriate to his skillset, because he's got some tools which are hella useful on D and as a support guy.

[6ixpessant]

Scottie doesn't seem to have the same energy that he did year 1 and 2. Body language is different, and he's not improving in areas that any player can improve on. It's a bummer.

[Shakril]

It's kind of funny that people can't see how good Scottie actually is. I think his dynamic style of play throws them off. He's like a futuristic player.

This is mostly because you're wrong. And it's been evident for a long time.

Scottie's a solid roleplayer who contributes well on D and as a transition playmaker, but he's too poor a scorer to merit the sort of fanaticism you devote toward him, which creates frustrating conversations. He isn't "like a futuristic player;" he's like a guy who can rebound well and make a decent basic pass in transition with some size who can't score well at all, and thus struggles to handle the level of responsibility our franchise keeps trying to force on him. We know he can't shoot reliably, we know he doesn't have elite quickness, we know he generally has a limited overall scoring skillset and we know that he hasn't really exhibited any serious improvement in most of his areas of weakness over his first four seasons. All of which matches his pre-draft scouting report.

Willful denial is the only way to really look at Scottie and say "hey, this guy is actually a perennial All-Star waiting to happen, we just aren't positioning him correctly, and that's why he was so profoundly useless as a scoring threat for his entire career to date." Actual quality scorers do better than this, even under adverse conditions.

We also know that if we could just put him into an appropriate role, he could be a very valuable supporting cast type player, and haven't really had the team do that the past several seasons because we've had a dearth of sufficient talent. We have overextended his role, paid him too much money and doubled down on how we want to use him, and that's all fairly stupid stuff born out of desperation on the part of our franchise. It's quite frustrating, but we haven't really had a better choice until this season with Ingram.

So I'm hoping we'll see BI stay relatively healthy, and then Scottie sliding into a role more appropriate to his skillset, because he's got some tools which are hella useful on D and as a support guy.

Well said, but to say he is a solid roleplayer is also not true. In my opinion he is a borderline All-Star player, but not one that can lead a team to success by himself. Thats why Ingram was brought in, and thats why so much of this years success relies on Poeltl. If those three mesh well together, everything else falls into place. Ingram and Poeltl both have shown they do what they are supposed to do, which is not true for Barnes.

Thats why this discussions are so frustrating, cause some are defending Barnes with a zeal, that is not healthy. Nobody is saying he is trash, only that he doesnt meet the expectations many had just 2 years ago.

[mihaic]

It's kind of funny that people can't see how good Scottie actually is. I think his dynamic style of play throws them off. He's like a futuristic player.

This is mostly because you're wrong. And it's been evident for a long time.

Scottie's a solid roleplayer who contributes well on D and as a transition playmaker, but he's too poor a scorer to merit the sort of fanaticism you devote toward him, which creates frustrating conversations. He isn't "like a futuristic player;" he's like a guy who can rebound well and make a decent basic pass in transition with some size who can't score well at all, and thus struggles to handle the level of responsibility our franchise keeps trying to force on him. We know he can't shoot reliably, we know he doesn't have elite quickness, we know he generally has a limited overall scoring skillset and we know that he hasn't really exhibited any serious improvement in most of his areas of weakness over his first four seasons. All of which matches his pre-draft scouting report.

Willful denial is the only way to really look at Scottie and say "hey, this guy is actually a perennial All-Star waiting to happen, we just aren't positioning him correctly, and that's why he was so profoundly useless as a scoring threat for his entire career to date." Actual quality scorers do better than this, even under adverse conditions.

We also know that if we could just put him into an appropriate role, he could be a very valuable supporting cast type player, and haven't really had the team do that the past several seasons because we've had a dearth of sufficient talent. We have overextended his role, paid him too much money and doubled down on how we want to use him, and that's all fairly stupid stuff born out of desperation on the part of our franchise. It's quite frustrating, but we haven't really had a better choice until this season with Ingram.

So I'm hoping we'll see BI stay relatively healthy, and then Scottie sliding into a role more appropriate to his skillset, because he's got some tools which are hella useful on D and as a support guy.

Well said, but to say he is a solid roleplayer is also not true. In my opinion he is a borderline All-Star player, but not one that can lead a team to success by himself. Thats why Ingram was brought in, and thats why so much of this years success relies on Poeltl. If those three mesh well together, everything else falls into place. Ingram and Poeltl both have shown they do what they are supposed to do, which is not true for Barnes.

Thats why this discussions are so frustrating, cause some are defending Barnes with a zeal, that is not healthy. Nobody is saying he is trash, only that he doesnt meet the expectations many had just 2 years ago.

I agree. He is the type of player that can be invaluable in certain teams, like Jarret Allen to give an example, but does not move the needle on his own. I remember a whole championship team full of those, the Pistons. Ben Wallace, Hamilton, etc.

[Tacoma]

It's kind of funny that people can't see how good Scottie actually is. I think his dynamic style of play throws them off. He's like a futuristic player.

This is mostly because you're wrong. And it's been evident for a long time.

Scottie's a solid roleplayer who contributes well on D and as a transition playmaker, but he's too poor a scorer to merit the sort of fanaticism you devote toward him, which creates frustrating conversations. He isn't "like a futuristic player;" he's like a guy who can rebound well and make a decent basic pass in transition with some size who can't score well at all, and thus struggles to handle the level of responsibility our franchise keeps trying to force on him. We know he can't shoot reliably, we know he doesn't have elite quickness, we know he generally has a limited overall scoring skillset and we know that he hasn't really exhibited any serious improvement in most of his areas of weakness over his first four seasons. All of which matches his pre-draft scouting report.

Willful denial is the only way to really look at Scottie and say "hey, this guy is actually a perennial All-Star waiting to happen, we just aren't positioning him correctly, and that's why he was so profoundly useless as a scoring threat for his entire career to date." Actual quality scorers do better than this, even under adverse conditions.

We also know that if we could just put him into an appropriate role, he could be a very valuable supporting cast type player, and haven't really had the team do that the past several seasons because we've had a dearth of sufficient talent. We have overextended his role, paid him too much money and doubled down on how we want to use him, and that's all fairly stupid stuff born out of desperation on the part of our franchise. It's quite frustrating, but we haven't really had a better choice until this season with Ingram.

So I'm hoping we'll see BI stay relatively healthy, and then Scottie sliding into a role more appropriate to his skillset, because he's got some tools which are hella useful on D and as a support guy.

Well said, but to say he is a solid roleplayer is also not true. In my opinion he is a borderline All-Star player, but not one that can lead a team to success by himself. Thats why Ingram was brought in, and thats why so much of this years success relies on Poeltl. If those three mesh well together, everything else falls into place. Ingram and Poeltl both have shown they do what they are supposed to do, which is not true for Barnes.

Thats why this discussions are so frustrating, cause some are defending Barnes with a zeal, that is not healthy. Nobody is saying he is trash, only that he doesnt meet the expectations many had just 2 years ago.

The debate comes down to this: if you're either a star player or a role player supporting the star player(s), which is it for Barnes?

A star can be defined as a player who can carry or at least significantly impact his team, especially on scoring. As tsherkin noted, Barnes' scoring is a liability, so his impact in other areas has to be very elite - like top 5 - to overcome this liability.

Scottie is good at defense but he's not elite, not really improved since his rookie year. I don't think he's better than OG who's a solid role player. In terms of potential (which is a dubious term to apply to a 5th year player), it may be that CMB will become a better defender than Barnes overall.

Scottie is good at passing/playmaking, but again, is he elite? If he plays PG, he's average among them. And if you can't create your own shot and already have a PG to bring up the ball then you're probably an off-ball guy, in which case how much impact does his playmaking matter?

Overall, one who contributes as a specialist, like on defense and occasional playmaking, but not elite, is the definition of a role player. This opinion will change if he breaks out this year (i.e., better shooting). It's only pre-season (bolded for emphasis) but so far, Barnes' shot looks no better.

[anotherhomer]

Scottie doesn't seem to have the same energy that he did year 1 and 2. Body language is different, and he's not improving in areas that any player can improve on. It's a bummer.

ya it is what it is....

Cooper Flagg at 18 and in his first year, is doing things, that we could only hope Scottie at 23 can do.

I'm not saying trade Scottie but don't be afraid to trade him if the right opportunity presents itself