Minor quibble, but Gay has spent a ton of time at PF this season. He doesn't really play SG at all for Memphis.
My bad, I was going off the word of what others have said. I don't actually watch the Grizzlies much at all.
I'd say an even larger portion is based on instincts. One of the reasons Tyrus was so highly regarded coming out were his incredible defensive instincts. The learning curve in being an exceptional shotblocker or ball thief definitely is not small, and the same goes for being a good rebounder.
I would also agree that it's very instinctual. I don't think the learning curve to being an exceptional shot blocker or ball thief is large. I think it's non existent. If you do not have the athletic gifts / instincts necessary, it seems virtually impossible to gain them later.
I'm not trying to bash Tyrus at all with my comments that I feel his game is raw. He excels in most of the things that can't be taught. His skill level in other areas certainly isn't zero, but it has an absolute ton of room for refinement.
Yeah, I guess we're largely just approaching the issue differently. You seem to be saying "Yeah, he's an above average dribbler for his position but he needs to be (or needs to be a great ball handler for his position) so that he can someday be an above average scorer."
No, this isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying he's average for a PF, if you set the PF expectation level to 0 (which you seem to have done). Tyrus can not dribble the ball well in traffic without getting stripped. I don't see him regularly (or pretty much ever) use dribble moves to evade people. Granted, the amount of time we get to see Tyrus try these things is limited. In just a few games you saw that I didn't or vice versa we could easily have very different views on the subject based on the limited opportunities and small sample sizes.
That sounds pretty explicitly like the tweener argument. First of all, there's no way Tyrus is 6'8 220. He measured at 6'8.25 in the combines and it often appears he's grown taller. He weighed in at 217 and he looks to weigh at least 15 pounds more than that right now. Also, standing reach is possibly the most important measurement of height and Tyrus fares well there. The fact that Gay is oversized for his position doesn't mean that Tyrus is undersized.
I've never seen it reported that he grew taller except from people on this forum who looked at photos at weird angles and just said he looks taller. If he has grown taller, that would be interesting. Given his age, it's unlikely (though not impossible). I recall it being reported that he added muscle. I thought it was initially reported that it was 12 lbs, and hten someone came back the next day and said it was 7 lbs. I thought he was 214 at the combine, but I had it wrong and he was 217.
Also, Tyrus is not 6'8 220. Come on, Doug, usually those stats get mentioned by folks who have a grudge against Tyrus, whereas I know that you do not. Tyrus measured 6'7 1/4" in bare feet at the pre-draft combine, which comes out to 6'8 3/4" when you factor in the average shoe height (1.5 inches).
I don't want to get into semantics too much over it. He measured at 6'8.25 in shoes at the combine. By NBA standards, he's the shortest 6'9 you can be, but fair enough, I should have still called him 6'9 since everyone in the NBA cheats their measurements.
Maybe I am being a bit unfair about what level of ball handling I think he could have. However, I don't see how you could watch his game and say ball handling is a strength. Do you see him cross anyone over? Go behind his back to get past someone? Fake someone out with spin moves (while dribbling and not his spin move he always uses where he picks up the ball and shoots)?
Do you disagree with the premise that a good ball handler would have little trouble taking a bigger slower defender off the dribble?
I hope that's true but if that's the case, I still don't think I'll look back and think his dribbling was raw at any point in time. I will believe his dribbling went from good to great.
Do you have an example of Tyrus ever displaying good ball handling? I don't know, as I said, maybe I just have selective memory on the subject. or am just hit by limited sample size. I just remember him getting stripped frequently when he tries to dribble through traffic. I don't recall him using dribble moves to get around people (pretty much at all).
Your benchmark seems to be comparing him to people who also do not do these things, and then saying "See look, he's not worse than zero". I can see calling him average for his position, but that's a large qualifier given his position. I don't think it means he has refined ball handling ability.
