#44. LA Lakers @ Detroit Pistons. 4:30 tip, 5:30 tv delay

[milesfides]

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That's because if your point guard is too short or too slow and gets beat too easily, it forces Odom to leave his man to help at distances longer than he can recover.

No, for several reasons:

1. It was a 2-point game; priority should be preventing three-pointers

2. When it's a 2-man game on one side of the court, as it was in that play, Odom should never leave his man. The help comes from the other side, the weak side. Why? Because of what we saw. It leads to a wide open shot. It's impossible to recover if Odom even takes a step away from the spot-up shooter on the strong side.

[kno]

Great point and i agree 100%, but Kukoc, Kerr and Paxon were more trusted to take the shot out of a double team with 5 seconds remaning in the game.

The same should have happened tonight

By "the same shoulve happened tonight", do you mean Lamar being trusted in crunch time by teammates like Kukoc, Kerr, and Paxon were?

Why? Because they are identical with the game on the line? Or because giving the ball to them from beyond the arch was one of the best options the respective teams had?

[milesfides]

i was gone for most of the live action in this thread but just incase it hasn't been mentioned, lamar didn't make the all-star team this year.

That's cold.

[Lakers05]

I disagree with Odom not being a good team defender. To quote JVG, Odom can switch on all 5 positions. That is the very definition of a good team defender.

Now the thing about Odom is that when he makes a switch on a point and forces a stop, people don't pay any attention. But make no mistake, without him, Fish's D would look a lot worse than it is.

All you have to do is look at our defense without Bynum and compare it to last year(while it's true that Bynum was healthy last year, his impact was negligible). Even without Bynum, we're much healthier than last year, yet our defense is arguably worse.

To me, Fish is an upgrade offensively over Smush, but defensively, he's worse. When he plays with Bynum, he's better than Smush, yet you can't say for sure that he's better than Smush, because Smush never got to play with THIS year's Bynum.

[milesfides]

what?

[LLcoleJ]

Odom is a horrible team defender.

[Kobay]

dude were you watching Lamar guard Dirk? He got blown past by Dirk... here is lamar's defense. hands up stand still im not going to foul you. Interestingly, that kwame's defense as well adn look how great our post defense is.

[dockingsched]

I disagree with Odom not being a good team defender. To quote JVG, Odom can switch on all 5 positions. That is the very definition of a good team defender.

Now the thing about Odom is that when he makes a switch on a point and forces a stop, people don't pay any attention. But make no mistake, without him, Fish's D would look a lot worse than it is.

lamar rarely forces a point to stop. he steps up, sticks his hip out, turns his back, and runs back to his man thinking his job is done. its smush parker esk, which not surprisingly u reference later in your post.

[Lakers05]

Odom is a horrible team defender.

If Odom's a horrible team defender, then what's your definition of Fish?

In that last defensive stand, you can't honestly tell me that Odom is the guy that you cringe at and not Fish.

Also, tell me how you would have defended that last play better(and no, conceding the two is not good defense.)

[DoctaJ]

If Odom's a horrible team defender, then what's your definition of Fish?

In that last defensive stand, you can't honestly tell me that Odom is the guy that you cringe at and not Fish.

Also, tell me how you would have defended that last play better(and no, conceding the two is not good defense.)

I can honestly tell you I cringed at Lamar and not Fisher. I knew the shot was going in as soon as Lamar moved off his man.

In that situation you have to prevent the 3.

[Lakers05]

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lamar rarely forces a point to stop. he steps up, sticks his hip out, turns his back, and runs back to his man thinking his job is done. its smush parker esk, which not surprisingly u reference later in your post.

What exactly do you expect him to do? There is only a certain amount of separation that you can give to your man before you jeopardize the entire defense. Instead of asking for Odom, why not ask Fish to not get beat so easily. The more and deeper your point guard gets beat, the more you have to sag and thus harder to rotate back. It's that simple.

It's hilarious because I used to make this argument regarding Bynum vs Fish also. Considering that Fish is the common denominator, I guess Bynum and Odom are the weak links

Ever wonder why Bynum has more trouble with Perkins than Howard? An uncouth observer would say that Perkins owns Bynum, and that Bynum played Howard equal, when in fact, Howard won that battle slightly(the reason is that Bynum needed more help than Howard.) Often times, how good a big looks has a lot to do with the guard plays.

[LLcoleJ]

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If Odom's a horrible team defender, then what's your definition of Fish?

In that last defensive stand, you can't honestly tell me that Odom is the guy that you cringe at and not Fish.

Also, tell me how you would have defended that last play better(and no, conceding the two is not good defense.)

great response when talking about Odom...bring up Fish.

[That Nicka]

i was gone for most of the live action in this thread but just incase it hasn't been mentioned, lamar didn't make the all-star team this year.

[That Nicka]

(and no, conceding the two is not good defense.)

It's better than conceding a three

[Lakers05]

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I can honestly tell you I cringed at Lamar and not Fisher. I knew the shot was going in as soon as Lamar moved off his man.

In that situation you have to prevent the 3.

I meant, before the play unfolded. Phil's substitution didn't work because he left a weak link out there. You can clearly tell that we did not impose our will on either sequences of the last possession. We were just lucky that Sheed is weak-minded. However, what happens when you leave an open shot? That's right, an offensive rebound even if the shooter misses.
Number one rule when trying to rebound: you have to impose your will, i.e force him to shoot a contested shot, on the offensive player first.

Also, remember the GS game when Bynum "gave" up the rebound because he has to overhedge on Baron Davis?

Perhaps it's time we stop blaming the guys who are actually trying to help out(to the point of jeopardizing themselves because they have to try to travel long distances) and look at who the real weak link is.

[LLcoleJ]

Perhaps it's time we stop blaming the guys who are actually trying to help out(to the point of jeopardizing themselves because they have to try to travel long distances) and look at who the real weak link is

cant wait for this one.....?

[milesfides]

I really don't get it, it's basic defense that will be taught in junior high school basketball camps.

Don't leave the spot up shooter on the strong side. In fact, Odom shouldn't even be looking at Billups, he should be facing Tayshaun Prince with his hands out and mirroring Prince's to discourage the pass.

If Odom even turns his head to look what's happening on the court, that could allow Prince to make a backdoor cut for a layup.

That's why it's absolutely VITAL that Odom stays on Prince at all times. At that point, it should be a 4 on 4 game; Odom should have taken Prince out of the play.

Again, this is just basic, basic fundamental basketball, and that's why it's disheartening when Odom commits these mistakes.

[Lakers05]

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It's better than conceding a three

Not necessarily, as long as you are able to contest it somewhat. However, in this case, I would agree that Odom shouldn't have helped, since there was no way he could have recovered in time.

However, the question is, why SHOULD we have to concede anything? It was clear that there was only one guy the Pistons could go to. Too bad we left a weak link for them to exploit.

I mean, basically, you're saying that we should be expected to lose(or at least be at a disadvantage), every time we're up by 2.

[That Nicka]

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Not necessarily, as long as you are able to contest it somewhat. However, in this case, I would agree that Odom shouldn't have helped, since there was no way he could have recovered in time.

However, the question is, why SHOULD we have to concede anything? It was clear that there was only one guy the Pistons could go to. Too bad we left a weak link for them to exploit.

I mean, basically, you're saying that we should be expected to lose(or at least be at a disadvantage), every time we're up by 2.

wtf are you talking about? The fact is Odom didnt "contest it somewhat" and Billups driving to the basket is still better than a wide open 3 in a 2 point game... No one is going to play perfect every game, but that doesnt mean that you shouldnt play smart

[Lakers05]

I really don't get it, it's basic defense that will be taught in junior high school basketball camps.

Don't leave the spot up shooter on the strong side. In fact, Odom shouldn't even be looking at Billups, he should be facing Tayshaun Prince with his hands out and mirroring Prince's to discourage the pass.

If Odom even turns his head to look what's happening on the court, that could allow Prince to make a backdoor cut for a layup.

That's why it's absolutely VITAL that Odom stays on Prince at all times. At that point, it should be a 4 on 4 game; Odom should have taken Prince out of the play.

Again, this is just basic, basic fundamental basketball, and that's why it's disheartening when Odom commits these mistakes.

Let's say that Odom shouldn't have left Prince(which I agree that he shouldn't, there was just no way he could have recovered in time, we had no choice but to take our chances with OT, considering that Prince had a 90% chance of making that shot), when you're an underdog on the road, overtime doesn't guarantee anything.