Jordan and Ewing vs Kobe and Hakeem

[tsherkin]

Well, you'd have to excuse me for believing the 69-13 Bulls would probably win a series against anyone else that year. Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Robinson whoever.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want, I simply happen to disagree with you. I think that the Bulls would have had a lot more trouble with the Rockets, especially the repeat Rockets, than they did with the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics and Jazz.

Yeah it is true Hakeem outplayed Ewing in the finals, but this isn't a two on two game. This is starting a team.

Agreed, but Hakeem was a lot better than Ewing. For starters, he was a better scorer and not as reliant on his jumpshot; he was a more significant defender, a WAY better rebounder, a better passer... He was pretty much better at every aspect of the game besides FT shooting and in his peak years, he was as good as Ewing ever was in that respect as well (actually, he had a couple seasons above Ewing's career high there as well).

Ewing was a fine center but Olajuwon was a lot better and Kobe Bryant has already proven that he can play well with a big, just like Olajuwon proved he could play with a scoring wing.... and Kobe's better than Drexler was at any point in his career. Not as good a rebounder, but better in most other ways.

Jordan was certainly a special player but I like the Hakeem/Bryant dynamic a lot more.

[wakkoman]

Well, you'd have to excuse me for believing the 69-13 Bulls would probably win a series against anyone else that year. Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Robinson whoever.

I think the Rockets could slow down Jordan a lot more effectively than the Bulls slow down Hakeem.

Vernon Maxwell AKA Mad Max was one of the better Jordan defenders of that time. Jordan respected him as a defender and Mad Max used to really step up for the games he had to defend him. They had several minor scuffles.

[Turisas]

I'll definitely take Kobe/Hakeem.

If they ran into Jordan/Ewing, Patrick would drop a brick... Hakeem locked him up so badly in the '94 Finals it was the most embarassing thing I'd ever seen, WAY worse than what he did to D-Rob. Robinson at least played a nice game on the offensive end but Ewing... man, he cost them that series far moreso than Starks in Game 7.

A bit of a double-standard here. Robinson played a nice game on the offensive end (25 ppg) but no mention of how he gave up 35 ppg on the defensive end. Ewing shot the ball terribly but Hakeem was averaging 8 points less than he was against the Admiral and Ewing outrebounded and blocked more shots than Hakeem did in that series.

[dingclancy]

Yeah that is what I thought. We really never know what the Rockets could do against the Bulls. Maybe Hakeem can steal a couple from Jordan.

[tsherkin]

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A bit of a double-standard here. Robinson played a nice game on the offensive end (25 ppg) but no mention of how he gave up 35 ppg on the defensive end. Ewing shot the ball terribly but Hakeem was averaging 8 points less than he was against the Admiral and Ewing outrebounded and blocked more shots than Hakeem did in that series.

It was implicit; remember, I'm arguing in favor of Hakeem here. My point was that at least Robinson didn't fall apart on O the way Ewing did against Dream's offense.

It's not a double-standard at all. Hakeem did well enough because he shot 50% and still scored 26.9 ppg. He crushed Ewing's face in, even though Ewing did outrebound him.

Ewing had 3 more blocks than Olajuwon, hardly a significant margin.

Anyway, the point is, Dream made Ewing so ineffectual on offense that Ewing lost the series for the Knicks.

[Heat3]

Jordan/Ewing. There is only one basketball, I'm giving it to MJ everytime.

[ClubLakers KB8]

The Dream was so much better than Ewing it makes it unfair.

Kobe and Hakeem, easily.

[Diaper Dandy]

One, if we're talking about the 96-97 team using a time machine and playing the 93-94 or 94-95 Rockets, then sure. They might have put up more of a fight. But, call me crazy, but I'm of the opinion that one of the greatest teams of all-time needs to face another one of the greatest teams of all-time to have a serious chance of being beaten. I'm just out there like that.

The 93-94 and 94-95 were not one of those teams. They were good. If the 96-97 Rockets made it past the Jazz, we could talk how they would compare to the team tied for the second most wins of all time, but they didn't. It might have "been more interesting", but I can't seriously imagine that squad winning more series against those Bulls than they'd lose.

[tsherkin]

One, if we're talking about the 96-97 team using a time machine and playing the 93-94 or 94-95 Rockets, then sure. They might have put up more of a fight. But, call me crazy, but I'm of the opinion that one of the greatest teams of all-time needs to face another one of the greatest teams of all-time to have a serious chance of being beaten. I'm just out there like that.

Histrionics aside, no one's telling you that you are incorrect or out of whack for having that opinion; it's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold that the dominant Bulls of the second three-peat era would have a significant chance of beating the Rockets. My point was merely that there is no guarantee that the Bulls beating the team that beat the Rockets is meaningful because the various teams match up differently.

The matchup issue of having to deal with Olajuwon would have been a significant problem for the Bulls because they defended post scorers with mostly scrub bigs and rotations from Jordan and Pippen, but Hakeem had been playing for over half a decade against triple teams and defenses of all different kinds. And there's a reason the Rockets were successful against the Bulls in the regular season, because that matchup was problematic for the Bulls' defense, they didn't have anyone (even Rodman) who could successfully contain Olajuwon.

but I can't seriously imagine that squad winning more series against those Bulls than they'd lose.

And that's certainly your prerogative, but I'm inclined to disagree. Not regarding the 93-94 Rockets, of course, I don't think they'd stand a snowflake's chance in Hell against the 97 Bulls, but I think the '95 and '97 Rockets would both stand a decent chance of taking the Bulls in a 7-game series.

[Retrolock]

I'd never go against MJ at his peak. Old man MJ was scoring 30-40 points against the rockets during the 2nd 3peat if i remember correctly. Barkley was there, and MJ just relishes battling with him.

MJ over Hakeem/Bryant. Lol I forgot about Ewing. j/k

[Mapelgleaf]

wow.... can't believe how many people are not going with MJ....

Do people ever learn?

[Jemini80]

wow.... can't believe how many people are not going with MJ....

Do people ever learn?

um Hakeem would still get picked before MJ if that draft happened today. Hence why people only complain about Sam Bowie being picked before MJ.

I take Hakeem and Kobe, but I'd rather take Hakeem and Ewing.

[Gervin]

wow.... can't believe how many people are not going with MJ....

Do people ever learn?

MJ was great and i know im biased, but i believe Kobe is a better player

and Hakeem....is....Hakeem

Kobe and Hakeem without even a second thought

[Original Baller]

wow.... can't believe how many people are not going with MJ....

Do people ever learn?

well were talking about Kobe here

difference between Hakeem and Ewing is much greater than between MJ and Kobe

at best MJ would slightly outplay Kobe while Hakeem would CRUSH Ewing...

[ThaRegul8r]

difference between Hakeem and Ewing is much greater than between MJ and Kobe

at best MJ would slightly outplay Kobe while Hakeem would CRUSH Ewing...

And in the case of the latter, we've actually seen it happen. It's not speculation or conjecture. Some people are not taking this into account, and think just having Jordan is enough for the other side and that he'll carry the slack for himself and Ewing.

[bobobolas1]

Hakeem the dream...

[JordansBulls]

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MJ was great and i know im biased, but i believe Kobe is a better player

and Hakeem....is....Hakeem

Kobe and Hakeem without even a second thought

Can you explain how a guy who has far less accolades and worse stats and hasn't had many great playoff games is better than one who was the greatest ever in the postseason?

Kobe has the talent to be as good as MJ, but he will fall short simply because he won't have the accolades that MJ has. Even if you were to say they were equal in talent, MJ will always have him beat because he would have him in all the important accolades and categories

MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 0 (right now)

Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option); Kobe = 3 (as the #2 Option)

Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 0 (right now)

DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0

Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2

Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 24.8

Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 23.3

Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 3053 (131 games)

FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far

Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 44% Career Thus Far

PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.57

Steals - Jordan = 2.35 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG

Blocks - Jordan = 0.83 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6

There is no argument here until Kobe can close the gap in the main categories. You can possibly say that Kobe has as much talent as MJ, but no where is he near to being as good or better.

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well were talking about Kobe here

difference between Hakeem and Ewing is much greater than between MJ and Kobe

at best MJ would slightly outplay Kobe while Hakeem would CRUSH Ewing...

I'm not so sure people actually read the thread title. It said starting a franchise not playing two on two or against one another. Hakeem won 2 rings and Kobe 3 rings. MJ won 6 rings.

MJ and Pippen were together and Ewing is equal to or greater than Pippen and they won 6 times.

Kobe and Shaq played together and won 3 rings and Hakeem and Shaq are considered virtually equal.

Also the difference between MJ and Kobe is greater than Hakeem and Ewing IMO.

Hakeem and Ewing are close statistically in the regular season, but Hakeem beats Ewing in the playoffs.
Hakeem#1 vs Ewing #7 - Playoffs

MJ#1 vs Kobe #10 - Playoffs

MJ and Kobe are not close statistically as shown above in the regular season and the difference is even greater in the playoffs between them.

Once again I think many are missing the premise of this thread. It is not about who would win between the two but who you would rather start a franchise with.

If you wanted to do it the other way, well MJ is better than Hakeem, not by much and Ewing and Kobe are a wash.

[Gervin]

-= original quote snipped =-



MJ was great and i know im biased, but i believe Kobe is a better player

and Hakeem....is....Hakeem

Kobe and Hakeem without even a second thought

Can you explain how a guy who has far less accolades and worse stats and hasn't had many great playoff games is better than one who was the greatest ever in the postseason?

Kobe has the talent to be as good as MJ, but he will fall short simply because he won't have the accolades that MJ has. Even if you were to say they were equal in talent, MJ will always have him beat because he would have him in all the important accolades and categories

MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 0 (right now)

Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option); Kobe = 3 (as the #2 Option)

Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 0 (right now)

DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0

Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2

Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 24.8

Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 23.3

Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 3053 (131 games)

FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far

Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 44% Career Thus Far

PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.57

Steals - Jordan = 2.35 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG

Blocks - Jordan = 0.83 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6

There is no argument here until Kobe can close the gap in the main categories. You can possibly say that Kobe has as much talent as MJ, but no where is he near to being as good or better.

-= original quote snipped =-



well were talking about Kobe here

difference between Hakeem and Ewing is much greater than between MJ and Kobe

at best MJ would slightly outplay Kobe while Hakeem would CRUSH Ewing...

I'm not so sure people actually read the thread title. It said starting a franchise not playing two on two or against one another. Hakeem won 2 rings and Kobe 3 rings. MJ won 6 rings.

MJ and Pippen were together and Ewing is equal to or greater than Pippen and they won 6 times.

Kobe and Shaq played together and won 3 rings and Hakeem and Shaq are considered virtually equal.

Also the difference between MJ and Kobe is greater than Hakeem and Ewing IMO.

Hakeem and Ewing are close statistically in the regular season, but Hakeem beats Ewing in the playoffs.
Hakeem#1 vs Ewing #7 - Playoffs

MJ#1 vs Kobe #10 - Playoffs

MJ and Kobe are not close statistically as shown above in the regular season and the difference is even greater in the playoffs between them.

Once again I think many are missing the premise of this thread. It is not about who would win between the two but who you would rather start a franchise with.

If you wanted to do it the other way, well MJ is better than Hakeem, not by much and Ewing and Kobe are a wash.

i undertand ur argument, but theres many factors that go into stats. I mean i may be wrong, but put MJ in Kobe's situation w/ Shaq, MJ IMO would also be the 2nd Option.

Looking back, correct me if im wrong, i dont see that much competition for Jordan at his position. But now the league is loaded w/ athletic periemeter players...


But as for the argument, while u cant go wrong w/ either team...i think the combo of Kobe and hakeem is way better..

[JordansBulls]

i undertand ur argument, but theres many factors that go into stats. I mean i may be wrong, but put MJ in Kobe's situation w/ Shaq, MJ IMO would also be the 2nd Option.

Looking back, correct me if im wrong, i dont see that much competition for Jordan at his position. But now the league is loaded w/ athletic periemeter players...


But as for the argument, while u cant go wrong w/ either team...i think the combo of Kobe and hakeem is way better..

Well Kobe and Shaq lost a series where they were heavily favorite and had the HC Advantage, that never happened with MJ.
Why should I put MJ as the 2nd option with Shaq when he was just as efficient on both ends of the court. In fact, Shaq is #2 all time in recorded PER behind MJ.
Also Magic and Kareem played together and both won league and finals MVP's. The fact of the matter is what MJ did, not many have done. Just go take a look at what they did in the playoffs.
As far as competition at the SG, well here were just some of the guys.

D Wilkins
G Hill
C Drexler
J Dumars
P Hardaway
M Richmond
D Majerle
R Pierce
H Hawkins
J Hornacek
J Stackhouse
C Ceballos
C Mullen
X McDaniel
E Jones
B Scott
S Smith
M Finley
L Sprewell
D Petrovic
N Anderson
S Elliot
R Miller
G Rice
R Blackman
M Aguire
R Lewis
A Houston
C Person
J Mashburn
J Starks
R Harper
V Maxwell
D Ellis

Also name me a time Kobe has finished Top 2 in MVP voting or led the league in PER, Win Shares, Player Wins, OWS? Jordan was doing that in a league that was dominated by big men. It goes to show how good he was. He led in PER 7x (has highest recorded ever), 8x in Win Shares, 8x Player Wins, 8x OWS. And he has 10 seasons of top 3 in MVP voting which is currently the most ever.

[Gervin]

im not denying that Jordan was a great and damn well Spectacular player...but and as i said im biased, its just in my mind, I see Kobe Bryant as the better player