MVP Watch 2008... Part 3.

[Elway=GOAT]

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First of all, what does football and fist fights have to do with this? You threw in some of the most irrelevant crap in that post I have ever seen.

Second, if he's so tough, and has played through far worse, what in the world is a sprained finger in his non-shooting hand to him anyway?

BTW, even if you put LeBron in that numbered list under Toughness/Durability, he's still not on Kobe's level. Sorry.

BTW, are LeBron fans allergic to lists or ordered arguments? Can one of you make your version of that list already? Jesus.

Yeah, because he is higher up in the durability poll. Sorry dude, but Kobe has missed a significant amount of games throughout his career due to injury. To put him up as the ironman of the league or atleast of the MVP candidates is a joke.

[INKtastic]

You haters are unreal.

Great, another post from someone who either missed or ignored my followup post where I said I had the exact same complaint with LeBron in the magic game.

As for Kobe last night - sure, they were up 25 after 30 minutes, but the game is 48 minutes. Sure, they won by 2, but they lose if Dirk hits that last shot. A game where you are up 25 and have a leading MVP candidate on your team should NEVER come down to the last shot.

They were up 25, it was down to 21 when Kobe goes out. It was down to 12 when he comes back in. Only a 12 point lead going into the 4th and the best your MVP can do to stop the other team's run is 5 points, only 3 of which came in the last 11+ minutes? Be aggressive, attack before the double team gets there, split the double team, do something. Don't just spend 11 minutes passively passing the ball to a teammate while your lead dwindles away.

And I only brought it up because it's the 3rd time in the past week I've seen Kobe become passive in the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter. 3 points this game, 2 points in hte houston loss that was a 2 point game with 6 minutes left to play, 1 point in the kings loss.

And yes, I saw his spectacular finishes in the previous games against the Kings and Mavs. He needs to play a bit more like those games and a bit less like these 3 recent games down the stretches.

I haven't read through the thread to see how criteria got ranked, or if they got ranked at all, but consistently finishing close game strong is very high on my personal list of MVP criteria. That's when a player is needed to perform well the most, that's when they can be most valuable.

[eatyourchildren]

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Yeah, because he is higher up in the durability poll. Sorry dude, but Kobe has missed a significant amount of games throughout his career due to injury. To put him up as the ironman of the league or atleast of the MVP candidates is a joke.

Watch the Lakers game this week. Then look at Kobe Bryant's hand. Then notice that he has his 4th and pinky finger taped together. Then go online. Then google "Kobe Bryant finger". Then read about his broken finger with the completely torn ligament. Then read more about how it requires surgery. Then continue to watch him play through it.

For the year of 2008 (the year we're, you know, like, deciding the MVP for), Kobe's been as durable as LeBron and played through all his injuries, minor and major.

[eatyourchildren]

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As for Kobe last night - sure, they were up 25 after 30 minutes, but the game is 48 minutes. Sure, they won by 2, but they lose if Dirk hits that last shot. A game where you are up 25 and have a leading MVP candidate on your team should NEVER come down to the last shot.

They were up 25, it was down to 21 when Kobe goes out. It was down to 12 when he comes back in. Only a 12 point lead going into the 4th and the best your MVP can do to stop the other team's run is 5 points, only 3 of which came in the last 11+ minutes? Be aggressive, attack before the double team gets there, split the double team, do something. Don't just spend 11 minutes passively passing the ball to a teammate while your lead dwindles away.

And I only brought it up because it's the 3rd time in the past week I've seen Kobe become passive in the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter. 3 points this game, 2 points in hte houston loss that was a 2 point game with 6 minutes left to play, 1 point in the kings loss.

And yes, I saw his spectacular finishes in the previous games against the Kings and Mavs. He needs to play a bit more like those games and a bit less like these 3 recent games down the stretches.

I haven't read through the thread to see how criteria got ranked, or if they got ranked at all, but consistently finishing close game strong is very high on my personal list of MVP criteria. That's when a player is needed to perform well the most, that's when they can be most valuable.

1. They won that game. Maybe you like 10 point deficits turn into 5 point wins. Are they any better than a 5 point advantage that stays that way throughout? Are they any better a win than a 25 point advantage that turns into a 2 point advantage? Maybe psychologically. But there's still a 'W' in that column regardless.

2. I watched that game. Kobe played the same way in the 4th quarter as he had in the first three. And as a Lakers fan, that was perfectly fine to see in the regular season. It's something that Phil Jackson has preached. And it's something Kobe has followed through with. Did we want Kobe to throw on the superman cape, to our viewing delight? Probably. Did he end up needing to? No. His teammates closed out the game. You can choose to see weakness in that. As a Kobe follower, I see strength in that. They won.

3. Finishing a close game strong is a great trait to have. So is not needing to finish a close game strong to win. That's why we have 'Team Record' on the list of attributes to look to in an MVP. Look at your much heralded "clutch statistics" from 82games. Notice how LeBron has almost double the amount of clutch minutes as Kobe, and who knows how much more than CP. Then look at the records of LeBron, Kobe, and CP's teams. Coincidence?

[Xandre]

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Great, another post from someone who either missed or ignored my followup post where I said I had the exact same complaint with LeBron in the magic game.

As for Kobe last night - sure, they were up 25 after 30 minutes, but the game is 48 minutes. Sure, they won by 2, but they lose if Dirk hits that last shot. A game where you are up 25 and have a leading MVP candidate on your team should NEVER come down to the last shot.

They were up 25, it was down to 21 when Kobe goes out. It was down to 12 when he comes back in. Only a 12 point lead going into the 4th and the best your MVP can do to stop the other team's run is 5 points, only 3 of which came in the last 11+ minutes? Be aggressive, attack before the double team gets there, split the double team, do something. Don't just spend 11 minutes passively passing the ball to a teammate while your lead dwindles away.

And I only brought it up because it's the 3rd time in the past week I've seen Kobe become passive in the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter. 3 points this game, 2 points in hte houston loss that was a 2 point game with 6 minutes left to play, 1 point in the kings loss.

And yes, I saw his spectacular finishes in the previous games against the Kings and Mavs. He needs to play a bit more like those games and a bit less like these 3 recent games down the stretches.

I haven't read through the thread to see how criteria got ranked, or if they got ranked at all, but consistently finishing close game strong is very high on my personal list of MVP criteria. That's when a player is needed to perform well the most, that's when they can be most valuable.

Heh...too bad the people who are voting for the MVP won't look at this game the same way you do. All they'll see is the box score...Bryant - 29 pts, 7 asts, 3 stls, and a 2-point win for the Lakers in Dallas w/o Gasol/Bynum...doesn't matter to them how he played in the fourth

[Andrew Bynasty]

Chris Paul and Lebron really made statements today winning vs. two top 5 teams and putting up their usual numbers vs. the 2nd and 3rd best defensive teams.

Let me ask you this then... If those were statement games by CP3 and LeBron, which they were... Than wasnt Kobe's game last night even more of a statement? They beat the 2nd best home team in their building without their #2 and #3 best players, and with Odom and Walton playing the 5 and 4 spots most of the game... And they were up by 25.

It seems like Kobe's games go unnoticed by everyone but Lakers fans... But I hear each and every night about LeBron, CP3, KG, T-Mac, etc. I think people are dying to see anyone, anyone other than Kobe win MVP.

[eatyourchildren]

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Heh...too bad the people who are voting for the MVP won't look at this game the same way you do. All they'll see is the box score...Bryant - 29 pts, 7 asts, 3 stls, and a 2-point win for the Lakers in Dallas w/o Gasol/Bynum...doesn't matter to them how he played in the fourth

I don't understand. Would if have really made a difference to you if the Lakers were only up 5 the whole time and ended up beating them by 2?

[eatyourchildren]

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Let me ask you this then... If those were statement games by CP3 and LeBron, which they were... Than wasnt Kobe's game last night even more of a statement? They beat the 2nd best home team in their building without their #2 and #3 best players, and with Odom and Walton playing the 5 and 4 spots most of the game... And they were up by 25.

It seems like Kobe's games go unnoticed by everyone but Lakers fans... But I hear each and every night about LeBron, CP3, KG, T-Mac, etc. I think people are dying to see anyone, anyone other than Kobe win MVP.

Beating Dirk, Howard, and JET on their home floor is not impressive. It's just what is expected.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

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Let me ask you this then... If those were statement games by CP3 and LeBron, which they were... Than wasnt Kobe's game last night even more of a statement? They beat the 2nd best home team in their building without their #2 and #3 best players, and with Odom and Walton playing the 5 and 4 spots most of the game... And they were up by 25.

It seems like Kobe's games go unnoticed by everyone but Lakers fans... But I hear each and every night about LeBron, CP3, KG, T-Mac, etc. I think people are dying to see anyone, anyone other than Kobe win MVP.

the Dallas game was a huge statement game for Kobe, bot not the last game..the one before that where he willed his team and took over in the 4th and OT.

[RobertGlory]

in the past week the hornets have beaten the spurs by 25, the lakers by 10, the bulls by 10 after coming back from 10 down in the fourth, and the rockets by 21 after being tied entering the fourth quarter.

granted all of them were at home, and we had a stinker against detroit.

but cp3 has put up the stats and we now lead the West (due to a tiebreaker by beating the aforementioned lakers)

and after getting 8,302 to a wednesday night game in november, the hornets got a crowd of 17,956 tonight, their 7th sellout in 12 games.

nothing is more valuable than helping ensure your franchise remains where it is for its fans

[eatyourchildren]

BTW LJ4MVP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeF4BSwtCEc

Just a quick, cursory search got me that. Hawks came from down 20, and the game came down to a last shot as well (albeit Jordan's, but the Bulls could easily have lost that one). And Jordan was a perennial MVP candidate.


I'm sure other MVP winners/candidates have been in situations where 15+ point leads were squandered and it came down to a last 1-2 possessions.

I hope that situation never happens to LeBron, because in your eyes he can't be an MVP candidate then.

[INKtastic]

of course, I said it was one of 3 recent games where that happened, as well as the magic game for the cavs, how about you talk about the other two as well.

And I don't think deep down that you are really all that happy with that dallas game either. I know i wouldn't be happy with the same thing happening to cleveland. Too much is being made of a win that was a shot away from a loss when it never should have gotten to that point.

Impressive to build the lead, not impressive to nearly blow it. Not impressive for the MVP candidate to let the other team dictate his ability to stop it from happening. And it's a good thing Dirk got tentative those last 40 seconds. The possession before the last one, where they wound up with Kidd taking a contested 3 was pretty bad.

[INKtastic]

BTW LJ4MVP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeF4BSwtCEc

Just a quick, cursory search got me that. Hawks came from down 20, and the game came down to a last shot as well (albeit Jordan's, but the Bulls could easily have lost that one). And Jordan was a perennial MVP candidate.


I'm sure other MVP winners/candidates have been in situations where 15+ point leads were squandered and it came down to a last 1-2 possessions.

I hope that situation never happens to LeBron, because in your eyes he can't be an MVP candidate then.

I'm pretty sure Jordan didn't passively just score 3 points in the last 11 minutes of that one (even excluding the last 2 shots). It was a poor finish to the game by Kobe, why is that so hard to admit?

[eatyourchildren]

of course, I said it was one of 3 recent games where that happened, as well as the magic game for the cavs, how about you talk about the other two as well.

And I don't think deep down that you are really all that happy with that dallas game either. I know i wouldn't be happy with the same thing happening to cleveland. Too much is being made of a win that was a shot away from a loss when it never should have gotten to that point.

Impressive to build the lead, not impressive to nearly blow it. Not impressive for the MVP candidate to let the other team dictate his ability to stop it from happening. And it's a good thing Dirk got tentative those last 40 seconds. The possession before the last one, where they wound up with Kidd taking a contested 3 was pretty bad.

First, I'm not happy about the lead squandering. But for me, and I speak on behalf of Lakers fans everywhere, the maturation of the team, and of Kobe, is that Kobe doesn't have to and should not have to put on his cape to win a game. It's great when he does, but if you go to forumblueandgold or any other well-written Lakers blog, the flood of comments after something like that is always a mix of awe and frustration. Awe at Kobe's feats, and frustration that the game slipped away from the team like that. But nobody on there expects Kobe to maintain 25 point cushions against a top team in the West.

I don't fully expect LeBron fans to comprehend this. For you guys, that's pretty much the way you are going to win 80% of the time. The other 20%, you lose. But I do wonder: If LeBron helps build a 25 pt cushion, do you get mad at him when the team squanders it? I have a feeling you don't, and you start blaming Gooden past or Wally present.

But like I said, is having a 5 pt margin all the way any better/worse than what transpired last night? And what's the reasoning for it? I mean, were you surprised when the Lakers built up a 25 lead on Dallas' home floor? And then you were surprised again when the lead was cut down? Doesn't that make it so that it's better for Kobe not to build a lead in the first place?

Finally, I don't think it was a Lakers fan who made a big deal out of this Dallas game.

[Xandre]

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I don't understand. Would if have really made a difference to you if the Lakers were only up 5 the whole time and ended up beating them by 2?

I was trying to say that the media doesn't care about Kobe not scoring in the fourth quarter, and that they're going to think that he was a big part of the win because they just glance at the box scores.

<-----Laker fan

[og15]

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I don't think it's a case where Gasol just improved because it was Kobe that he ended up playing with. Not taking away from Kobe because Kobe is one of the best guys to have draw attention away from you, but it's not like Gasol wouldn't have improved his FG% playing on another good balanced team with someone else being the first option and taking pressure off him.

Yeah I don't think that Kobe is unique in making a talented player better but then neither are any of the other MVP candidates. I see Paul gets a lot of assists because he has the best 3pt shooter in the game on his team. Is it because he is getting Peja easier shots or is it Peja is just that good. Looking at Chandler and all of his alley oop dunks. Is that because of Paul or could Tyson get looks like that with Nash, Deron, AI or Kobe.

Didn't Bynum shoot over 60% and was a league leader in dunks before he got injured?

Any criticism that can be leveled at Kobe can be applied to any other player. Sometimes it seems Kobe can't do anything without criticism. If his teammates have good games then it's because of their own natural improvement or they are just talented players.


There is always a disclaimer when praising Kobe: "Yeah I'm not taking anything away from Kobe, he's MVP worthy but he's got good teammates." or "Kobe has good stats...just not as good as Paul's or Lebrons." or "Kobe passed too much out of the double teams, that isn't what an MVP should do in the 4th quarter."


If people weren't biased it would be clear that there isn't much difference between Paul, Kobe and Lebron. They are all putting up great numbers. Lebron is putting up the best stats imo. Paul is 2nd in statistical output. Defensively I see teams are able to exploit Paul more than Lebron and Kobe. Team success is all Kobe and Paul. That's where Paul and Kobe separate from Lebron.

I have the advantage down the stretch to Kobe because the Hornets schedule is now going to start catching up with them. They have played the least amount of road games in the NBA. 10 of their last 15 games are on the road.

@IND
@CLE
@BOS
@TOR
@ORL
@MIA (why even bother)
@MIN
@LAL
@SAC
@DAL

with home games vs BOS, GS, UTAH.

The Lakers schedule is comparatively much easier since 10 of their last 15 games are at home. Advantage is clear........

Yup, I think you're further making my point. Like I said later in my post, all these guys are doing spetctacular things and drawing attention, and making pays for their teammates, and they each have different ways in doing it, but they also have good teammates. Okay, Lebron's teammates aren't as good as CP3 and Kobe's, but they don't suck. And yes, Chandler wouldn't look so nice if his PG was Kirk Hinrich (I'm just saying that because he actually was and hde didn't), but if you give him Paul, Nash, Williams, Kobe, I guess AI, I'd even say Andre Miller (because I know he throws a mean lob if he has a teammate who can get open for it), and some others they get him a few baskets he might not get without good PG play or a playmaker like that. Is Paul somehow unique in that area? Not really when compared to high level players/playmakers. And yea, Paul does draw attention and get Peja some open shots, but Peja can also shoot, he's always been a shooter.

Similarly, Kobe draws attention away from Gasol, not neccesarily more than another similar first option scorer would, but he does, and Gasol has been more efficient. I don't understand why people try to make it seem like the guy they like is the only guy that can possibly do good for teammates or for a team.

Did Kobe make Bynum athletic and long and able to finish like crazy inside? No, but he opens up the floor for him, and when he drives he makes plays to/for him. He or anyone else could make those same plays for Kwame Brown and they're failed attempts at a basket, maybe turnovers.

I think people internet wise at times don't like Kobe because of some of his fans, not because of the player himself.

Anyways....

Yea, the Lakers do have an advantage going down the stretch, they have 3 road games remaining and they don't play as many good teams. I suppose the Hornets can be happy that they get to play Miami, Indiana and Minnesotta in some of those games right?

[eatyourchildren]

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I'm pretty sure Jordan didn't passively just score 3 points in the last 11 minutes of that one (even excluding the last 2 shots). It was a poor finish to the game by Kobe, why is that so hard to admit?

Like I said. I watched the game, and at no point did I think Kobe was taken out of the game or that he was passive. He played solid D, played off the ball, passed out of doubles, fed a hot Radman. He didn't score enough, is that what your entire analysis falls under?

Ah, I get it. I think you and other Cavs fans have been convinced by the media upheaval last year about LeBron passing in the 4th quarter and not "taking over the game" that, now that he's doing that this year, anything contrary is unacceptable.

Stop drinking the ESPN kool-aid.

[INKtastic]

your mixing two differernt things. What is best for the lakers and what is best for the case of Kobe as MVP.

The case of Kobe as MVP was far, far better served with the 52 point game where he put on the cape. The case for Kobe as MVP was not helped by the 3 recent games I referred to.

It's certainly better for the lakers as a team when the other guy's do step up, but they can certainly step up while Kobe is a bit more aggressive than he was last night. it wouldn't' take a lot from kobe to hold off the rally - a drive here and a drive there - just enough to maintain a bit of a cushion and not have it come down to the last shot.

[INKtastic]

Like I said. I watched the game, and at no point did I think Kobe was taken out of the game or that he was passive. He played solid D, played off the ball, passed out of doubles, fed a hot Radman. He didn't score enough, is that what your entire analysis falls under?

Ah, I get it. I think you and other Cavs fans have been convinced by the media upheaval last year about LeBron passing in the 4th quarter and not "taking over the game" that, now that he's doing that this year, anything contrary is unacceptable.

There are two ways to play against the defense kobe faced. One is to completely defer to teammates, which is pretty much what Kobe did. The other is to get more aggressive. Players on the level of Kobe and LeBron can beat double teams. They can make their move before the 2nd guy gets set, they can work to get the ball in other positions and attack right away. We both see Kobe and LeBron each do this to double teams.

I was disappointed in LeBron when he wasn't aggressive in Orlando as the game got away from us, I was disappointed in Kobe in Dallas when he wasn't more aggressive as the game almost slipped away from the Lakers as well as the other two games I mentioned.

[INKtastic]

The hornet's schedule could go either way for Paul's case. Keep winning and his case strengthens, start losing and fall in the standings and it drops off a bit.