MVP Watch 2008... Part 3.

[eatyourchildren]

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Just because he has a physical limitation doesn't mean it isn't a weakness. He's a small guy, he can be posted up. Which brings me to my next point.

Stats are important, but why didn't you show any stats for the defensive side? How well does Paul defend PG's?

Taking a cursory look I've seen that PG's have had quite a bit of success going against Paul. They usually shoot at a high % and have some scoring success.

From what I've seen if Paul can't steal the ball then he becomes less of a defensive presence. Since he is only 6'0 180 lbs.......

Exactly. Why do people balk at the notion that CP is physically limited in what he can do as a defender? It doesn't mean that he can't become the next Gary Payton, but even Gary Payton wasn't as good a defender as Scottie Pippen. This is a sport--size matters.

Even a Kobe Fan can accept the notion that LeBron may one day be a better defender than Kobe given his ability to possibly guard 4.5 positions.

Isn't that why we valued Magic so much? In his rookie year, he managed the rock on one end and plugged the middle on the other end. Can we not say that based on that unique ability, Magic is better than most PG's?

I mean, maybe Earl Boykins is a great defender at his size. The only problem is, no one else is at his size, which makes him a defensive liability. CP may be a great defender at his size, but again, there's only so many player at his size.

I mean, are we not allowed to value Billups and Williams for their stature because they can fight screens easier and bump opposing PG's off plays?

[HouMac]

If we remove the BS voting criteria, does any non Laker fan(I say this because they're incapable of being objective) not think LeBron and CP3 are the clear-cut MVPs of this league? What do these guys have to do? Incredible stats, good to great win percentages(far better than what Kobe had the last 2 seasons) and EVERYBODY knows their team would fall apart w/o them. Especially LeBron's team.

Heck, CP3 has significantly superior stats to Kobe and has a near-identical team record yet for whatever reason is considered secondary to Kobe in the MVP race. How desperate is the media and LA fans to give Kobe the award? Him winning it this season will be abt as meaningful as Dirk and Nash winning the previous 2 seasons.

[Big Bird]

Hmm, another thing I fund funny was before the road-trip (when they still had Gasol, mind you), people not convinced of Kobe's case (the ones who'd five it to Paul, James, KG, whoever) said:"Now, this tough 4 game roadtrip could be a statement for Bryant's case." And we said:"Yeah, he'll need to perform at his best here, the games will be tough but he can't go M.I.A. here." Then Gasol goes down and the stance changes a bit:"Now it's an even better time Kobe to show his worth and build his case for the MVP... he needs to show that he can lead this team to wins without Bynum and Gasol, who were obviously the biggest reason for the stellar record!" (of course the home record of Dallas and Utah didn't mean anything to these people...). And we said:"But this is the hardest road trip the franchise has faced in 35 years and you expect him to do it with his entire center line out?". And people went on that injuries can't be an excuse and that he's got to step up and get the wins. So then they lost to New Orleans and Houston, followed by claims that Gasol is apparently the MVP of the team and how Bryant can't help his team weather the storm and even has a lousy (not MVP) worthy performance with 11-33 shooting. But then, the unexpected happens. The Lakers win against two teams that have a combined 90% winning record at home when the Lakers came to town. And not only did they win the Lakers completely ran over them, capturing a comanding 25 and 22 point lead respectively. And as we are use to it, the story once again turns:"Well, Bryant's teammates stepped up, he disappeared and let his teammates bail him out, you can't call those teammates scrubs, etc.". Am I the only one who sees a pattern here? By the way, I can't imagine what would've happened if James and the Cavs pulled out such a feat... we'd probably have 10 threads already proclaiming him the MVP. Do you see something like that started by the Lakers fans? No. Most of us are still saying it's a tied, 3 man race with other dark horse candidates luring... so please, stop with the generalization of the entire fanbase and selective usage of posts or arguments.

So all being said, I don't know what else to write about the whole thing, because it really seems like we're starting to beat a dead horse. This thing will probably be argued for another +10 games and we won't come nowhere close a rough consent anyway...

cheers

"Why can't we all just... get along."

[eatyourchildren]

If we remove the BS voting criteria, does any non Laker fan(I say this because they're incapable of being objective) not think LeBron and CP3 are the clear-cut MVPs of this league? What do these guys have to do? Incredible stats, good to great win percentages(far better than what Kobe had the last 2 seasons) and EVERYBODY knows their team would fall apart w/o them. Especially LeBron's team.

Heck, CP3 has significantly superior stats to Kobe and has a near-identical team record yet for whatever reason is considered secondary to Kobe in the MVP race. How desperate is the media and LA fans to give Kobe the award? Him winning it this season will be abt as meaningful as Dirk and Nash winning the previous 2 seasons.

This guy missed the boat on the past few pages, because these things have already been argued and put to rest.

That and he misuses the word "objective." I think he means to say empirical. You can still be objective about intangibles, defense, and other things not represented in statistical production.

We've already talked about strength of schedule, which NO will now have to overcome after having had the 26th hardest schedule in the league. If CP and Crew do overcome that, props and MVP his way.

MVP is not about your team falling apart if you're absent. Otherwise the award would be called the OMS--The One Man Show Award.

His argument about NO and CLE win percentages being better this year than Kobe's past two is stupid too. Kobe didn't even win it last year.

__________________________

When I asked Carmelo Anthony about his experience this summer playing with Kobe, he acknowledged Bryant

[Jules Winnfield]

If we remove the BS voting criteria, does any non Laker fan(I say this because they're incapable of being objective) not think LeBron and CP3 are the clear-cut MVPs of this league? What do these guys have to do? Incredible stats, good to great win percentages(far better than what Kobe had the last 2 seasons) and EVERYBODY knows their team would fall apart w/o them. Especially LeBron's team.

Heck, CP3 has significantly superior stats to Kobe and has a near-identical team record yet for whatever reason is considered secondary to Kobe in the MVP race. How desperate is the media and LA fans to give Kobe the award? Him winning it this season will be abt as meaningful as Dirk and Nash winning the previous 2 seasons.

Far better than what Kobe had the last two seasons? You mean with Kwame starting and Brian Cook starting and Smush Parker starting? And he still got them 45 and 42 wins in the West respectively WHILE having a better individual season than both of them AND he didn't win the MVP? Clown.

And stop this Lebron's team would fall apart without him.

They lost to Boston without him and with him.
They lost to Detroit when he got injured - detroit is only the second best team in the league.
They lost to Washington without him and with him
They lost to Seattle on the second night of a back to back without him
They lost to Toronto without him, a top team in the East.
They lost to New Jersey without him and then lost to new jersey a week later with him.
They only head scratcher was losing to Charlotte and that was by 3.

The reality is, Kobe's team wouldn't be good without him either. If you deny this, you're either blind or stupid, your choice.

Kobe plays better defense than Paul and his statistics aren't worse than Paul's unless you take hollinger's PER as gospel which most intelligent people...don't.

[JDawg]

If we remove the BS voting criteria, does any non Laker fan(I say this because they're incapable of being objective) not think LeBron and CP3 are the clear-cut MVPs of this league? What do these guys have to do? Incredible stats, good to great win percentages(far better than what Kobe had the last 2 seasons) and EVERYBODY knows their team would fall apart w/o them. Especially LeBron's team.

Heck, CP3 has significantly superior stats to Kobe and has a near-identical team record yet for whatever reason is considered secondary to Kobe in the MVP race. How desperate is the media and LA fans to give Kobe the award? Him winning it this season will be abt as meaningful as Dirk and Nash winning the previous 2 seasons.

Except it wont be....because I can promise you wiht EVERYTHIGN that is holy that if the Lakers face the Hornets in the playoffs,

Kobe will NOT be denied by Paul and the Hornets.

As a matter of fact, im SO CONFIDENT in saying that, that EVNE WITHOUT Pau and Bynum, the lakers WOULD NOT lose to Paul and the HOrnets.

Do you even realize that if Kobe got into a playoff setting vs. Paul, Paul's team isn't even as talented as the Suns team and you guys dont evne have a Raja Bell who can paly physical agasint Kobe and hold him to 30.

If Kobe faced you guys in the playoffs, he might make it his life's mission to score 50 and put your whole team in foul trouble pal.

You dont get this. Kobe has a gear that Paul WILL NEVER HAVE. EVER.

Only Lebron and Kobe have this gear. Its a transcendant gear.

All Kobe has to do is go to Paul and challenge him. Just tell him as he did WAde, dont use a pick....come at me one on one and lets see what you got? You think little Chrissy Paul wants any part of that?

Chris Paul needs a pick for everything he does.

Kobe Bryant will just shove the ball down Paul and Tyson Chandler's throats.

The only hope of a Paul led team beating a Kobe led team, is if the refs find it in their hearts to NOT call fouls on Kobe to help Paul's team.

You honestly want the prospect of Paul facing Kobe freaking Bryant in the playoffs? LOL....

Lebron I can agree with. He's a beast of epic proportions.

What I find laughable about you MORE THAN ANY OTHER POSTER is that before it was All LBJ LBJ LBJ.

NOW, its LBJ and paul, LBJ and Paul, LBJ and Paul.

Make no mistake pal, Kobe aint no Dirk. if Kobe is on that Mavs team last year instead of Dirk, he'd pour in 60 if he had to. You think Kobe would shrivel up to a physical and mental challenge liek Dirk did.

LOL...not only would he NOT do that, he'd embrace with the ferocity and vengeance of only MJ.

Give me a break pal.

Its Kobe
Its Lebron

Its everyoen else...PERIOD!!!!

[Big Bird]

His argument about NO and CLE win percentages being better this year than Kobe's past two is stupid too. Kobe didn't even win it last year.

^^Not only that, he didn't even finish 2nd in voting and James should be the clear cut MVP with the 13th team record? (the Lakers were 10th and 12th in those two years).

[Andrew Bynasty]

Heck, CP3 has significantly superior stats to Kobe and has a near-identical team record yet for whatever reason is considered secondary to Kobe in the MVP race. How desperate is the media and LA fans to give Kobe the award? Him winning it this season will be abt as meaningful as Dirk and Nash winning the previous 2 seasons.

[C'mon Cavs]

Far better than what Kobe had the last two seasons? You mean with Kwame starting and Brian Cook starting and Smush Parker starting? And he still got them 45 and 42 wins in the West respectively WHILE having a better individual season than both of them AND he didn't win the MVP? Clown.

And stop this Lebron's team would fall apart without him.

They lost to Boston without him and with him.
They lost to Detroit when he got injured - detroit is only the second best team in the league.
They lost to Washington without him and with him
They lost to Seattle on the second night of a back to back without him
They lost to Toronto without him, a top team in the East.
They only head scratcher was losing to Charlotte and that was by 3.

The reality is, Kobe's team wouldn't be good without him either. If you deny this, you're either blind or stupid, your choice.

Kobe plays better defense than Paul and his statistics aren't worse than Paul's unless you take hollinger's PER as gospel which most intelligent people...don't.

LeBron's team wouldnt fall apart without him?? Jeez what more proof do you want.

They lost 6 games in a row without him (you left NJ off the list). The most games they've lost in a row with him is 2.

The Detroit game should be the clearest example of how pathetic the Cavs are without LeBron...they trail by 4 at the half and when LeBron doesnt return...they lost by 35!!!

You would think that the supporting cast would band together and prove that they could win without LeBron when he missed a game against Seattle later in the year with a sprained ankle...Nope. The Cavs got down by 20+ in the first half and mounted a comeback, only to fall apart in the final minutes of the game (funny that they would).

There is absolutely no reason to believe the Cavs wouldnt fall apart without LeBron.

[Jules Winnfield]

I didn't say the Cavs wouldn't fall apart.

First of all, they're on pace for 46 wins. Yes, they'd fall apart...but in the East.

Second of all, the Lakers would fall apart without Kobe in the West.

Even if the Lakers have a better roster than the Cavs, the margin of error is so much smaller.

Third, it isn't clear to me at least that they would have fared much better WITH Lebron in the lineup. Cavs fans act like they would've won all 7 of those games. Not true.

That's all I'm saying. They'd fall apart, but so would the Lakers, Hornets, Mavs, Pheonix etc. And those are great teams. Role players are just that...role players. You can't expect them to beast when the system is so heavily focused around 1 individual like the Cavs.

[Andrew Bynasty]

Im curious to hear what it is Kobe needs to do to win an MVP...

Put up amazing stats - Did that, didnt get him one

Sacrafice stats for wins - Doing that... Now his stats arent good enough

Play great defense - This will be his 6th time on 1st Team Defense

Win without talent - Did that for 2 years, didnt work

Explain to me exactly what he has to do to win... Cause Im lost.

EDIT - And people continuously clamour about how bad LeBrons surrounding cast is... Well Kobe just took out the Jazz and Mavs on the road with a worse supporting cast than what LeBron currently has... So seriously, what does he need to do to win it? Change his name?

[conleyorbust]

Im curious to hear what it is Kobe needs to do to win an MVP...

Put up amazing stats - Did that, didnt get him one

Sacrafice stats for wins - Doing that... Now his stats arent good enough

Play great defense - This will be his 6th time on 1st Team Defense

Win without talent - Did that for 2 years, didnt work

Explain to me exactly what he has to do to win... Cause Im lost.

EDIT - And people continuously clamour about how bad LeBrons surrounding cast is... Well Kobe just took out the Jazz and Mavs on the road with a worse supporting cast than what LeBron currently has... So seriously, what does he need to do to win it? Change his name?

Like I said, I wouldn't be upset with Kobe winning. I just think too many people are like you... they have the notion that since Kobe has never won the award before, now that his team is good he has to win it.

It is possible to think that another player, be it Paul, KG, or Bron, is more deserving than Kobe for various reasons: Paul is taking a similarly tlalented but less experienced team and leading them to a similar record with amazing stats for a point guard, Lebron is having a legendary season for a wing player, KG is the best player on the the best team (by far) in the league. Any of these guys could win it legitimately... Kobe shouldn't get the award just because his case is stronger now than it has been in the past.

[G35]

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Like I said, I wouldn't be upset with Kobe winning. I just think too many people are like you... they have the notion that since Kobe has never won the award before, now that his team is good he has to win it.

It is possible to think that another player, be it Paul, KG, or Bron, is more deserving than Kobe for various reasons: Paul is taking a similarly tlalented but less experienced team and leading them to a similar record with amazing stats for a point guard, Lebron is having a legendary season for a wing player, KG is the best player on the the best team (by far) in the league. Any of these guys could win it legitimately... Kobe shouldn't get the award just because his case is stronger now than it has been in the past.

No the reason that I heard that Kobe didn't win the MVP in past years is because he didn't "make him teammates better", his team didn't win 50+ games, his team wasn't a top 3 team in the conference.

So now that Kobe is putting up similar stats and his team is winning he has a legit MVP claim.

This isn't some lifetime MVP award. Because I think Kobe is going to have even better stats NEXT year and he has an even better chance to be MVP.

Lifetime awards would be for people at the end of their careers.......

[HarlemHeat37]

maybe it helps a little when Lamar Odom averages 19 points, 14.5 rebounds and 4 assists in those 2 games and Radmanovic putting up 17 points and 6.5 rebounds..so I wouldn't be playing the supporting cast argument here..Lamar Odom has always been capable of coming up with big games once in a while..the last 2 games, he has done that..

nevermind, I forgot that the only reason that Lamar Odom has any talent was because Kobe Bryant used to train him in HS..I also obviously realize that Kobe draws attention away, but Lebron can also do that any time..he doesn't have somebody with Odom's skills that can isolate on the opposite side of the court and take advantage of Lebron's attention..Z in his prime, but not right now..

as for the size argument, Laker fans were claiming that the main reason Lebron shut Kobe down in their game was because of his size advantage..look it up in the threads..

[Andrew Bynasty]

Like I said, I wouldn't be upset with Kobe winning. I just think too many people are like you... they have the notion that since Kobe has never won the award before, now that his team is good he has to win it.

My problem is, that before when Kobe was putting up amazing stats and leading ultimate scrubs to 45 wins, he wasnt considered because his team didnt win enough... And now we see LeBron likely going to put up roughly the same win total, but in the east, and hes being heavily considered. That seems like a double standard.

And then this year he sacrafices stats for wins, and people are now claiming that his stats arent good enough. So I just dont understand what it is that Kobe needs to do to please people.

It is possible to think that another player, be it Paul, KG, or Bron, is more deserving than Kobe for various reasons: Paul is taking a similarly tlalented but less experienced team and leading them to a similar record with amazing stats for a point guard, Lebron is having a legendary season for a wing player, KG is the best player on the the best team (by far) in the league. Any of these guys could win it legitimately... Kobe shouldn't get the award just because his case is stronger now than it has been in the past.

Okay, KG is playing with 2 superstars... And its arguable whether or not he is even the most valuable on his own team. (I think he is, but his supporting cast is unreal) And like I mentioned earlier, take away KG's first 3 seasons, and this year KG is averaging career lows in pretty much every single category. (ppg, rpg, bpg, apg, etc.)

I'll be most pissed if LeBron wins it. His stats are mind blowing... But the criteria HAS ALWAYS been that the MVP has to be on an elite team. Right now the Cavs are the 13th best team in the league. Overwhelmingly mediocore in the East.

I think CP3 is Kobe's main competition, but again, considering injuries to Kobes cast and to himself, and leading the Lakers into Utah and Dallas and getting huge wins w/o Bynum and Gasol, and I gotta think that Kobe should be the favorite right now.

[Andrew Bynasty]

maybe it helps a little when Lamar Odom averages 19 points, 14.5 rebounds and 4 assists in those 2 games and Radmanovic putting up 17 points and 6.5 rebounds..so I wouldn't be playing the supporting cast argument here..Lamar Odom has always been capable of coming up with big games once in a while..the last 2 games, he has done that..

Oh please, do you expect Kobe to put up ALL 106 points in last nights game? Give me a break... Of course other players are going to have to step up. Thats what happens when other starters are hurt. Nothing Kobe can do can please you people. He wins in the 2 best arenas in the league in back-to-back games w/o Gasol and Bynum and people give Kobe 0 credit...

But when LeBron beats the Pistons and Ilgauskas puts up 20-8... It was all LeBron... His teammates suck... Blah, blah, blah...

Kobe can do nothing to please you.

[JDawg]

There's basically about 3 main guys on here that have ZERO objectivity, form what ive seen.

I mean Kobe fasn are bad, but even they give their props. But these three are haters to the MAX.

1) HouMac. The worst of the all. He'll credit ANYONE other than Kobe. He fits that description earlier that no matter what, it CANT be Kobe. When Paul stumbles during this rough schedule coming up, He'LL SWEAR up and down KG is MVP, when he never mentioned him before.

2) HarlemHeat. A known hater and he admits it. But even so, his arguments are absolutely pathetic. In case anyone hasn't noticed there HARLEM, players have to step up to get wins agaisnt elite teams.

The point is this however....those arent all world stats Kobe is getting from Odom and Vlad. BUt thats all KOBE NEEDS. He doesnt evne NEED another star player. HE just needs SOME kind of floor impact and he becomes unbeatable on the homecrout of the two best home teams? How's them apples.

3) LJ4MVP. NOt as bad as the other two. BUT MAN, his arguments are at times atrocious. I do give him some props for stating the good game Kobe had yesterday.

Here's a word of advice to Kobe fans. I got a feeling that the haters around here hate Kobe's fANS more than they hate Kobe himself. Let them revel in their player. Take the high road. Dont talk about how great Kobe's game was. Its like the rule in football. When you score a TD...dont celebrate. Be like you've been there before and its no big deal.

Let the haters clamour about their guys. Let the media do its thing. The haters hate Kobe. BUt they hate his fans even more. IF I was a hater, by the time I came here, I'd hate him even mroe and it would have nothing to od wiht the player and everything to do wiht his fans.

[G35]

maybe it helps a little when Lamar Odom averages 19 points, 14.5 rebounds and 4 assists in those 2 games and Radmanovic putting up 17 points and 6.5 rebounds..so I wouldn't be playing the supporting cast argument here..Lamar Odom has always been capable of coming up with big games once in a while..the last 2 games, he has done that..

nevermind, I forgot that the only reason that Lamar Odom has any talent was because Kobe Bryant used to train him in HS..I also obviously realize that Kobe draws attention away, but Lebron can also do that any time..he doesn't have somebody with Odom's skills that can isolate on the opposite side of the court and take advantage of Lebron's attention..Z in his prime, but not right now..

as for the size argument, Laker fans were claiming that the main reason Lebron shut Kobe down in their game was because of his size advantage..look it up in the threads..

You mean like when Illgauskas just put up 20 points and 8 reb's on Detroit. Lebron has always had a good C on his team to work with. No need to downplay that. Stop reaching.......

[RobertGlory]

i will say this about CP3's size and all, that he can't help that he's 6'0" 185lbs..

so size and positional versatility based on that would be an unfair advantage for kobe or lebron based on that.

[tkb]

Who cares if Chris Paul is 6'0"? He's an amazing player, and he's playing good defense. Major props to him for the season he is having.

I personally think Kobe has the strongest case for MVP right now, but that's not to take anything from Paul who is right there with him.