MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

[eatyourchildren]

So says that guy. I consider Kobe's great season while dealing with injuries and Paul's having an absolutely historic season to be a wash. The tiebreaker for me is the W-L. I mean did you link me to Jenkins or to Jesus? Why is his opinion any more credible than mine? Considering he said the MVP race is "easy" to call, I'd say it's actually less.

Paul's having a historic STATISTICAL season. But looked upon holistically--taking into account his total contribution and not just his offensive efficiency/production via box scores--his play hasn't been better than Bryant's. One such measure of this is in adjusted +/- for the whole season. So yeah, props to Paul for raising his game from last season, but he hasn't touched the ceiling that Bryant has this season.

I also didn't quote him as if to say he is more credible than you, only to articulate a point about the win differential being the wrong tiebreaker to look at. It's your own insecurities showing when you think everything I post is an attack on your credibility.

[eatyourchildren]

Still gotta go with Paul.

He made Tyson Chandler into a all-star caliber center

David West-All Star player..

They would not be where they are without CP3....

I love Kobe, he had his best season I believe.. But when you have Lamar, Paul Gasol, and Andrew Bynum who was having a great season b4 he got hurt.. He had alot of help..

CP3 had a full season with Peja, but it's basicaly the same nucleus they had since last year.

Wait, was David West not an all star player before this year?

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Paul's having a historic STATISTICAL season. But looked upon holistically--taking into account his total contribution and not just his offensive efficiency/production via box scores--his play hasn't been better than Bryant's. One such measure of this is in adjusted +/- for the whole season. So yeah, props to Paul for raising his game from last season, but he hasn't touched the ceiling that Bryant has this season.

Ahh, the mating call of the Kobe fan! There's other stuff out there- subjective stuff- that everyone just can't see. I forgot, Kobe transcends production on the court.

It's your own insecurities showing when you think everything I post is an attack on your credibility.

Okay Dr. Phil.

[Original Baller]

If the Lakers finish with the #1 record out West and Kobe doesn't win MVP.....then I will best 100% convinced there is a conspiracy again Kobe........he's finally met that dumb standard writers have set up......he's the best player on the best team in the most competitive conference in NBA history.

[eatyourchildren]

Ahh, the mating call of the Kobe fan! There's other stuff out there- subjective stuff- that everyone just can't see. I forgot, Kobe transcends production on the court.

Like Doctor MJ said a few pages ago, I think you're using "production" as a fuzzy proxy for offensive production. But overall production--or contribution to wins or point separation--is a much more useful overall measure of a player's worth. Which is why I think we both like adjusted +/- and realize how limited something like PER is as a composite stat.

And it's funny that you think that just because box score and box score-based stats can't empirically account for something as important as defense (among other things) that somehow it's "subjective." Or that production on the court is fully encompassed by the available metrics. Both of those assertions are just obviously untrue, but you think they are cop-outs by the pro-Kobe camp. You must think Joe Dumars was barely a valuable player too.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

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Like Doctor MJ said a few pages ago, I think you're using "production" as a fuzzy proxy for offensive production. But overall production--or contribution to wins or point separation--is a much more useful overall measure of a player's worth. Which is why I think we both like adjusted +/- and realize how limited something like PER is as a composite stat.

And it's funny that you think that just because box score and box score-based stats can't empirically account for something as important as defense (among other things) that somehow it's "subjective."

What has made you think that I only look at "box-score based stats"?

Or that production on the court is fully encompassed by the available metrics.

The vast majority of it is. Do you disagree?

Both of those assertions are just obviously untrue, but you think they are cop-outs by the pro-Kobe camp. You must think Joe Dumars was barely a valuable player too.

Tell me more of what I think and feel, Dr.

[Doctor MJ]

Also I have been wondering what happens if the Rockets get the #1 seed?


Will Mcgrady get any love?

He'll make my top 10 if that happens.

[Doctor MJ]

Still gotta go with Paul.

He made Tyson Chandler into a all-star caliber center

Okay let's stop and think for a second. Chandler is considered valuable because of his defense and rebounding, not because point production. Why on earth would you credit his point guard for his defense and rebounding?

[Doctor MJ]

Ahh, the mating call of the Kobe fan! There's other stuff out there- subjective stuff- that everyone just can't see. I forgot, Kobe transcends production on the court.

Well, I completely agree with him and I've been branded a Kobe hater for years.

Oh, and *everyone* transcends production.

[eatyourchildren]

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Well, I completely agree with him and I've been branded a Kobe hater for years.

Oh, and *everyone* transcends production.

Adding to that: If Kobe's statistical production is, as some here have said, not been his best to-date, but his overall play has been, as certain others have said (Popovich, Jackson, Dumars, Riley, etc.), the best of his entire career, what accounts for that discrepancy?

If, truly, his production on the court is precisely and totally accounted for in the available metrics, then why are some very credible experts still considering this to be Kobe's best season? Are they smoking the "subjective" pipe too?

[ILikeTheGrizz]

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Well, I completely agree with him and I've been branded a Kobe hater for years.

Oh, and *everyone* transcends production.

EXACTLY. But when it comes to Kobe he just does it more, I guess? eatyourchildren gives CP credit for a great statistical season and then says "Well there's things Kobe does that you can't measure" as if CP also doesn't do things that can't be measured.

First, most of your positive actions on the court can be measured in one way or another, usually coming down to +/- for the little things (and the little things aren't as good as the big things, like actual assists, points, rebounds, etc) Then somehow, if CP is at a 10 and Kobe is at a 9, what Kobe does that can't be measured isn't just more than anyone else (and it's not just CP, let's be honest. For the last 5 years or so it's been their contention that those things that can't be measured are done best by Kobe, otherwise it's hard to argue he's the best in the league), but it's so much more that it's enough to eclipse the advantage CP has in the big things- you know, the more important things.

Of course everyone transcends production. So why do Kobe fans feel that he has a monopoly on that?

[ILikeTheGrizz]

If, truly, his production on the court is precisely and totally accounted for in the available metrics

Who ever said this? Is this just a strawman or are you responding to someone else?

[eatyourchildren]

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EXACTLY. But when it comes to Kobe he just does it more, I guess? eatyourchildren gives CP credit for a great statistical season and then says "Well there's things Kobe does that you can't measure" as if CP also doesn't do things that can't be measured.

First, most of your positive actions on the court can be measured in one way or another, usually coming down to +/- for the little things (and the little things aren't as good as the big things, like actual assists, points, rebounds, etc) Then somehow, if CP is at a 10 and Kobe is at a 9, what Kobe does that can't be measured isn't just more than anyone else (and it's not just CP, let's be honest. For the last 5 years or so it's been their contention that those things that can't be measured are done best by Kobe, otherwise it's hard to argue he's the best in the league), but it's so much more that it's enough to eclipse the advantage CP has in the big things- you know, the more important things.

Of course everyone transcends production. So why do Kobe fans feel that he has a monopoly on that?

I never said that CP doesn't do things that don't transcend those production metrics. But, at least according to +/-, he hasn't been transcending as much as Kobe.

And why do you think that +/- is only for the little things? If anything +/- encapsulates everything, big and little. It's not as if +/- doesn't measure the relative worth of the regular box score stats. What +/- does a good job of, that PER doesn't, is show the NET production of a player, not just his positive contributions. This is akin to, in finance, looking at profits instead of just revenue.

[GreenWithEnvy]

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people are saying that KG single-handedly turned the celtics team around.. they are forgetting that pierce has been every bit as good as KG all year.. and they're forgetting about some veteran named ray allen..

have you watched a celtics game this year? KG has changed the culture around that team. they have a tenacity about them that is personified by KG. Perkins is nasty and the Celtics bigs are playing with extreme confidence primarily because of KG.

[eatyourchildren]

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have you watched a celtics game this year? KG has changed the culture around that team. they have a tenacity about them that is personified by KG. Perkins is nasty and the Celtics bigs are playing with extreme confidence primarily because of KG.

Still doesn't mean that KG's the one killing you in the 4th quarter, instead of playing hot potato with the ball in the high post like a gully version of Chris Webber.

[Doctor MJ]

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EXACTLY. But when it comes to Kobe he just does it more, I guess? eatyourchildren gives CP credit for a great statistical season and then says "Well there's things Kobe does that you can't measure" as if CP also doesn't do things that can't be measured.

First, most of your positive actions on the court can be measured in one way or another, usually coming down to +/- for the little things (and the little things aren't as good as the big things, like actual assists, points, rebounds, etc) Then somehow, if CP is at a 10 and Kobe is at a 9, what Kobe does that can't be measured isn't just more than anyone else (and it's not just CP, let's be honest. For the last 5 years or so it's been their contention that those things that can't be measured are done best by Kobe, otherwise it's hard to argue he's the best in the league), but it's so much more that it's enough to eclipse the advantage CP has in the big things- you know, the more important things.

Of course everyone transcends production. So why do Kobe fans feel that he has a monopoly on that?

Well first off, many Kobe fans are fans, and thus are likely to be a bit irrational about their fave player. Believe me, you've got my sympathy there.

Regarding the +/-, that's actually a significant part of why I've got Kobe ahead of Paul. How can that be when Paul's +/- is greater? You've got to look deeper. A player's +/- is very much biased based on who he spends his time on the floor. So if you see a star player with a high +/-, but then see the other lead players on the team have similarly high +/-, that's not necessarily that impressive.

Kobe has much greater separation from his teammates than Paul does, while playing much less minutes with his top teammates than Paul does, all while having a superior on court point count. Or if you prefer, just go to basketballvalue.com and look at adjusted +/- which measure things like this more precisely. You'll see that Kobe is in the top 10, and Paul doesn't even make their long list.

Now let me be clear, Paul still *almost* was my choice for MVP, so I'm not saying that this stuff is the end all be all. But when you factor it in, it favors Kobe, not Paul.

[Greer]

Kobe is really closing the season off nice! This just might be what will push the vote in his favor. Chris paul really deserves it, too. The hornets have been the surprise of the season and paul is having an amazing year individually. Congrats to whoever wins!

[RobertGlory]

what happened with the LAL-NOH matchup? it was a wash.

the lakers got up by 30 and the hornets made up 29 of it, both MVP caliber performances by paul and kobe. the lakers won by the expected home court advantage of three to tie the season series at 2-2.

so what if CP doesn't get it, he's only 22 and with him, lebron, and dwight howard among the top 5 candidates this year, the future of the league is in great hands with good guys who let their play on the court speak for them.

as for david west not being an all-star player before 07-08, apparently he wasn't.

crazy as this sounds, as someone who has seen every hornets game this year, i'm gonna go with peja for team MVP.

[eatyourchildren]

what happened with the LAL-NOH matchup? it was a wash.

the lakers got up by 30 and the hornets made up 29 of it, both MVP caliber performances by paul and kobe. the lakers won by the expected home court advantage of three to tie the season series at 2-2.

so what if CP doesn't get it, he's only 22 and with him, lebron, and dwight howard among the top 5 candidates this year, the future of the league is in great hands with good guys who let their play on the court speak for them.

as for david west not being an all-star player before 07-08, apparently he wasn't.

crazy as this sounds, as someone who has seen every hornets game this year, i'm gonna go with peja for team MVP.

I wasn't one to put too much stock into one game, but it wasn't exactly one of CP's MVP caliber games. The lead was made up for mainly on the back of some hot 3 point shooting by Peja.

[shobe_81]

So does everyone hands down believe that Kobe is the MVP? Especially if the Lakers hold onto the #1 seed?