MVP Rankings 1.0

JimMurray · Post #1141 » by **JimMurray** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:32 am

ugkfan2681 wrote:i think lebron stats speak for themselves so why argue the point he is putting up mvp stats.while his team is 21-8 on pace to win close to 60 games again.

Stats are MAYBE 25% of the equation. What about the other 75%?

JimMurray · Post #1142 » by **JimMurray** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:36 am

7foot3 wrote:[
No. There were behind the Hornets, Suns and Spurs. Between Shaq and Pau, the Lakers won about 42 out of every 82 games. Without the big men, they haven't been that good. Does this mean that Kobe isn't having an MVP type season right now? No, but Lebron is shooting at a more efficient rate, pulling down more rebounds more often, and setting up his teammates more often. And as I just demonstrated, the all-star big man is what has pushed the Lakers over the top from mediocre to championship-level. Kobe is having what would normally be an edit*MVP* season, but he hasn't been making the same impact, both as an individual or for his team, as Lebron has.

No, they were the number one seed before Bynum went down. When they got Pau they were the four seed, after they got Pau they finished as the 1 seed. And what team IS good without big men? You're late to the party and I'm not going to repeat 60 pages worth of arguments that blow lebron out of the water. He's the MVP at this point...period. If you want to know why...go back and read.

JimMurray · Post #1143 » by **JimMurray** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:50 am

7foot3 wrote:1.Lakers were 29-16 at the time of the trade, Suns were 33-14.

So three games out despite devastating injuries that year? And they STILL recovered in time to finish first? You know how hard that is to do? Acclimating a brand new addition to the team that quickly, that efficiently? What is your point?

2. Congrats on just making the playoffs without much help. The Cavs were able to play .500 or a bit better with backcourts including Eric Snow, Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic and Larry Hughes. Pau Gasol was an all-star 2 years before being traded, and likely would have been the year before if he didn't get hurt. To suggest people thought he was merely a 'solid big man' is just laughable.

They didn't just make the playoffs, they made the playoffs in possibly the greatest conference in the history of the NBA. Had you put them in the East, they would have finished with a 2-4 seed. The fact that the Cavs played in the East during those years, which was arguably the WORST conference in the history of basketball, greatly inflated those records. You and I both know that.

3. Kobe is 14th among 2-guards in rebound rate, Lebron is 10th among 3's.

And...? Lebron also plays considerable time at the 4, that's pretty much where he should be. Kobe's a freaking guard.

4. Lebron has a much higher assist rate. And his usage rate is just about the same. Kobe is the one using more possessions without getting his teammates involved.

So effin what. He dominates the ball on every possession, EVERYTHING runs through him, naturally his stats are going to be inflated. Nobody in the triangle is EVER going to have a high number of assists...it's not happening.

5. I showed that the Lakers were decent without the all-star big man, and excellent with one.

First of all, you didn't SHOW anything. You simply threw something out that has been rehashed over and over and over again multiple times for the last month. You're not original.

6. Complete throwaway line. I can say most people agree that Lebron is the best player in the game with as much proof.

Do it.

Look, I get that Kobe is having an excellent year, the type that would frequently win a MVP. But Lebron is too. And he's doing it with just a bit more efficient numbers, and he's done it in the past more efficiently as well.

Kobe is not that far behind statistically, not enough to warrant it being a big deal. Lebron has actually regressed from last year, and his defense has been subpar compared to Kobe's. The Cavs have underacheived this season despite adding some sexy pieces to a team that won 66 games. A third or fourth place finish in that horrid conference called the East is not going to cut it as far as the MVP is concerned.

and I'm done here, as we certainly are going to violate the ToS very soon, if not already. I should have just left it after pointing out the Lakers ~.500 record between Shaq and Gasol.

Was that supposed to be your big point? The clincher? :roll:

JimMurray · Post #1144 » by **JimMurray** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:52 am

YLSKillaCam wrote:Lebron had an extremely impressive MVP performance tonight.

Yep, no matter how much you want to argue that Kobe is the MVP (and you'd be correct), it can't be denied that there is no way you will ever see Kobe have a 34, 12, and 16 game. That's just bananas. Sure, he might drop 60 a couple times this season, but he's not doing 34, 12, and 16.

JimMurray · Post #1145 » by **JimMurray** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:55 am

Jennings09 wrote:
JimMurray wrote:No it isn't. If that's the case, give the MVP to Joe Johnson. What he's doing with the Hawks is more impressive than Lebron's doing with the Cavs.

Hey I've seen some nice posts by you in this thread and I agree right now Kobe is the MVP. What he is doing with the Lakers right now is phenominal, but this is the worst post I've seen.

You have to know I was kidding right? I was pointing out an obvious flaw in somebody's logic.

Jennings09 · Post #1146 » by **Jennings09** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:56 am

7foot3 wrote:
YLSKillaCam wrote:
1. Lakers were #1 in the West prior to Gasol coming to the Lakers.
2. The Lakers were a playoff team with Kwame Brown, Smush Parker & Brian Cook starting. When Pau got to the Lakers, he wasn't considered more than just a solid big man. Now people call him the best PF in the league. Wonders what playing with Bryant can do for you.
3. Kobe's rebounding at his position is better than Lebron's at his position.
4. There's absolutely no proof that Lebron sets up his teammates more often; there is proof that Lebron hogs the ball more often than Kobe, however (USG%)
5. You demonstrated nothing.
6. Kobe is not just playing at an all star level, he's the best player in the game right now...and most people would agree that this season, Kobe's been flat out better than Lebron.
7. Impact? When Kobe's off the court Lakers get outscored by 6.7 points. When he's on the court his team outscores the opponent by 13.1 points. When James is off the court, the Cavs are only outscored by 6.0 points per game. When James is on the court, his team only outscores the other team by 8.6 points per game. Kobe's impact is clearly greater this season. Note that these two produce the most for their teams, so don't try to act like Artest or Varejao's impact is greater than these two for their teams.

1.Lakers were 29-16 at the time of the trade, Suns were 33-14.

2. Congrats on just making the playoffs without much help. The Cavs were able to play .500 or a bit better with backcourts including Eric Snow, Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic and Larry Hughes. Pau Gasol was an all-star 2 years before being traded, and likely would have been the year before if he didn't get hurt. To suggest people thought he was merely a 'solid big man' is just laughable.

3. Kobe is 14th among 2-guards in rebound rate, Lebron is 10th among 3's.

4. Lebron has a much higher assist rate. And his usage rate is just about the same. Kobe is the one using more possessions without getting his teammates involved.

5. I showed that the Lakers were decent without the all-star big man, and excellent with one.

6. Complete throwaway line. I can say most people agree that Lebron is the best player in the game with as much proof.

7. The fact that Artest and Varejao are leading their teams in those categories right now shows that we may have some sample size issues. Lebron has dominated Kobe in this category over the longer sample, the last few years.

Look, I get that Kobe is having an excellent year, the type that would frequently win a MVP. But Lebron is too. And he's doing it with just a bit more efficient numbers, and he's done it in the past more efficiently as well.

and I'm done here, as we certainly are going to violate the ToS very soon, if not already. I should have just left it after pointing out the Lakers ~.500 record between Shaq and Gasol.

Very nicely done.

GriffMoney_1984 · Post #1147 » by **GriffMoney_1984** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:56 am

threads like these are absolutely useless

90% of the time the mvp is just the player with the best stats out of the 2 confrence #1 records

if boston stays #1 in the east. kobe easly wins mvp

Jennings09 · Post #1148 » by **Jennings09** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:59 am

GriffMoney_1984 wrote:threads like these are absolutely useless

90% of the time the mvp is just the player with the best stats out of the 2 confrence #1 records

if boston stays #1 in the east. kobe easly wins mvp

Yea Cavs are going to have to win the east for Lebron to have a good shot.

NYK 455 · Post #1149 » by **NYK 455** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:01 am

If the Cavs have a record remotely comparable to the Lakers by the end of the season, LeBron will win the MVP. If the Lakers win 10 games or more, Kobe will win it. Personally, LeBron is the MVP in my opinion. He surpassed Kobe as a player a while ago, he wins with far less talent, and is more valuable to his teams success.

JimMurray · Post #1150 » by **JimMurray** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:03 am

I think Lebron closed some ground tonight. We'll see what happens CHRISTMAS DAY BABY! No alcohol, but I'll be smoking a fat Cuban in front of the big screen in the smoke room!

GriffMoney_1984 · Post #1151 » by **GriffMoney_1984** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:22 am

NYK 455 wrote:If the Cavs have a record remotely comparable to the Lakers by the end of the season, LeBron will win the MVP. If the Lakers win 10 games or more, Kobe will win it. Personally, LeBron is the MVP in my opinion. He surpassed Kobe as a player a while ago, he wins with far less talent, and is more valuable to his teams success.

you obviously dont know the history of the award

90% of mvps in nba history were on #1 seeds

lebron having 2 more rebounds and assists wont make a difference.

its not a statistical award. its just a "best player on the best team" award

always has been always will be. the award is basically meaningless.

bl2k · Post #1152 » by **bl2k** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:52 am

all this lebron is only 2.5 back, is dumb. LeBrons team has four more losses and plays in a much weaker confrence and LA was without their second best player for 3 outta 4 losses.

Bgil · Post #1153 » by **Bgil** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:32 am

7foot3 wrote:
YLSKillaCam wrote:
1. Lakers were #1 in the West prior to Gasol coming to the Lakers.
2. The Lakers were a playoff team with Kwame Brown, Smush Parker & Brian Cook starting. When Pau got to the Lakers, he wasn't considered more than just a solid big man. Now people call him the best PF in the league. Wonders what playing with Bryant can do for you.
3. Kobe's rebounding at his position is better than Lebron's at his position.
4. There's absolutely no proof that Lebron sets up his teammates more often; there is proof that Lebron hogs the ball more often than Kobe, however (USG%)
5. You demonstrated nothing.
6. Kobe is not just playing at an all star level, he's the best player in the game right now...and most people would agree that this season, Kobe's been flat out better than Lebron.
7. Impact? When Kobe's off the court Lakers get outscored by 6.7 points. When he's on the court his team outscores the opponent by 13.1 points. When James is off the court, the Cavs are only outscored by 6.0 points per game. When James is on the court, his team only outscores the other team by 8.6 points per game. Kobe's impact is clearly greater this season. Note that these two produce the most for their teams, so don't try to act like Artest or Varejao's impact is greater than these two for their teams.

1.Lakers were 29-16 at the time of the trade, Suns were 33-14.

The original quote from JimMiller was:

Were they not the number one seed before getting Pau and Bynum getting injured?

Which is true. They were in first place prior to Bynum going down. The Suns beat them on Jan 18th to take back first place.

http://www.pe.com/sports/breakout/stori ... 9d884.html

2. Congrats on just making the playoffs without much help. The Cavs were able to play .500 or a bit better with backcourts including Eric Snow, Ira Newble, Sasha Pavlovic and Larry Hughes. Pau Gasol was an all-star 2 years before being traded, and likely would have been the year before if he didn't get hurt. To suggest people thought he was merely a 'solid big man' is just laughable.

No, it was HIGHLY unlikely Gasol would have bene an All-Star that year because Memphis was on pace to win about 20-25 games. IT's the same reason he didn't make the All-Star game in 2008.
CBS Sports had him ranked as the 8th best PF behind Carlos Boozer:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10982501

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5017 ... r-forwards
Top 5: Duncan, KG, Dirk, Amare, Brand... Honorble mention: Bosh, Gasol, West, Boozer.

http://sportscouch.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... -forwards/
Duncan, KG, Dirk, Bosh, Boozer, Brand, JO, Sheed, Gasol, Jamison.

http://dimemag.com/2007/06/nbas-top-10-power-forwards/
1. Tim Duncan, KG, Dirk, Boozer, Brand, JO, Randolph, Bosh, Gasol, Jamison.

http://www.hoopsiq.com/2008/09/hoops-iq ... kings.html

http://www.elevationmag.com/basketball/ ... itemid=327
32nd overall player just above Josh Howard.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10371569
8th just behind Marion and above Jamison and Odom.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4154 ... le-players
Not in the top 20 players in the league.

Once again, no one had Pau Gasol ranked anywhere even remotely close to where his has been since he joined the Lakers. It was routine to see him ranked below Bosh, Amare, Brand, JO, and Boozer... and sometimes Marion too. If you think otherwise then provide some proof that many people (anyone) had him ranked up with the Dirks, Duncans, and KG's like they do now.

Shot Clock · Post #1154 » by **Shot Clock** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:34 am

GriffMoney_1984 wrote:you obviously dont know the history of the award

90% of mvps in nba history were on #1 seeds

lebron having 2 more rebounds and assists wont make a difference.

its not a statistical award. its just a "best player on the best team" award

always has been always will be. the award is basically meaningless.

Really? I took a quick look back and found about 9 of the last 20 or so winners were not on the best team in the league.

best teams
Kobe's MVP - nope
Garnett's - nope
1 of Nash's - nope
1 of Duncan's - nope
Iverson's - nope

That's 5 out of the last 10. You sounded real authoritative though...

TAI8 · Post #1155 » by **TAI8** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:54 am

Shot Clock wrote:
GriffMoney_1984 wrote:you obviously dont know the history of the award

90% of mvps in nba history were on #1 seeds

lebron having 2 more rebounds and assists wont make a difference.

its not a statistical award. its just a "best player on the best team" award

always has been always will be. the award is basically meaningless.

Really? I took a quick look back and found about 9 of the last 20 or so winners were not on the best team in the league.

best teams
Kobe's MVP - nope
Garnett's - nope
1 of Nash's - nope
1 of Duncan's - nope
Iverson's - nope

That's 5 out of the last 10. You sounded real authoritative though...

Um LA, Minny, and Philly were all number one seeds...

TAI8 · Post #1156 » by **TAI8** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:55 am

Jennings09 wrote:
GriffMoney_1984 wrote:threads like these are absolutely useless

90% of the time the mvp is just the player with the best stats out of the 2 confrence #1 records

if boston stays #1 in the east. kobe easly wins mvp

Yea Cavs are going to have to win the east for Lebron to have a good shot.

What happened?

Bgil · Post #1157 » by **Bgil** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:01 am

Like I said before, a some people on this forum thought we'd get worse after the trade because Pau was "soft" and many people didn't even think we'd be contenders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j9nsqv9m6M
Even ESPN was doubtful.

Remember that the Bulls thought giving up Loul fricken Deng was too much for Pau but now you're trying to act like we got Tim Duncan.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2007 ... 70223mar17

The revisionist history of Pau Gasol is ridiculous.

TAI8 · Post #1158 » by **TAI8** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:13 am

Anyone who thought that stealing Gasol from Memphis wouldn't have made LA contenders doesn't know a thing about basketball period...

Bgil · Post #1159 » by **Bgil** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:34 am

wone wrote:Anyone who thought that stealing Gasol from Memphis wouldn't have made LA contenders doesn't know a thing about basketball period...

Well....
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=757392&start=0
viewtopic.php?p=15339202#15339202

Oh yeah, Realgm ranking Pau 7th among PF's in 2006:
http://realgm.com/src_feature/679/20060 ... _forwards/

TAI8 · Post #1160 » by **TAI8** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:10 pm

Bgil wrote:
wone wrote:Anyone who thought that stealing Gasol from Memphis wouldn't have made LA contenders doesn't know a thing about basketball period...

Well....
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=757392&start=0
viewtopic.php?p=15339202#15339202

Oh yeah, Realgm ranking Pau 7th among PF's in 2006:
http://realgm.com/src_feature/679/20060 ... _forwards/

Haha good stuff..The funny thing is I'm actually on the first thread as a believer (TAI8)..I think at the time most doubters were actually trying to cope with the fact that LA managed such a trade instead of actually believing said trade wouldn't make LA contenders out of jealousy, fear, and/or contempt..