Sacramento (16-33) @ Toronto (27-23)

[pillwenney]

Exactly how many consecutive months are Kings players going to have to miss "shots they can make", before as a community we acknowledge they're actually shots they can't make?

Valid point. In the case with Kevin, we're basically talking about a stretch of around 10 games vs. the rest of his entire career as a basis. I have to think those are going to start going in. Kevin Martin isn't the type to consistently go 1-6 from 3. At the same time, Beno was 2-5 from the line, Omri was 1-5 from the field getting mostly good shots, and Spencer was 6-16 on mostly pretty good shots.

[CoachD]

As a long time coach, and someone who's been close the the Raptors organization internally for a long time, let me say this:

For years when the Raps were horrible, they'd have the 4th quarter collapse, or lose at buzzer or be totally blown out and have their noses rubbed in it by chest bumpers and such on the other side. And beating the Raps was no small task. I specifically remember Peja, Hedo, Biibby and Christie celebrating like MAD in Toronto after Peja hit a dagger 3 and the Raps were awful while Kings were one of the best in the West.

The reason why the Raps are the #2 team in the NBA since Xmas is partially because of how they have come together as a unit. If there is no ego and the bench is 100% on board with what the coach needs, they the whole team performs better.

The celebrating and all from the bench is more about what they're doing than who they are facing ... they acted the same way recently in beaing the Heat, The Lakers and Pacers. it doesn't matter who they face... they're a young aggressive and very supportive bunch.

[ICMTM]

If you don't like the other team celebrating...don't lose!

[Lionel Messi]

Exactly how many consecutive months are Kings players going to have to miss "shots they can make", before as a community we acknowledge they're actually shots they can't make?

Valid point. In the case with Kevin, we're basically talking about a stretch of around 10 games vs. the rest of his entire career as a basis. I have to think those are going to start going in. Kevin Martin isn't the type to consistently go 1-6 from 3. At the same time, Beno was 2-5 from the line, Omri was 1-5 from the field getting mostly good shots, and Spencer was 6-16 on mostly pretty good shots.

Spencer Hawes isn't really a good player. He has no comfort zone on offence. His post game is just "okay" and i wouldn't say it's any better than Bargnani's, for example. Also, his face-up game is pretty much limited to spot up jumpers. I'm not sure why he took 16 shots, i mean compare that with Bosh who had 18 field goal attempts and that's way too many shot attempts.
I don't think he's someone you can say "should have made more shots" because he's really not a good enough player to make a high percentage of shots if he takes 16 of them.

[CoachD]

You cannot compare the post up game of Hawes to Bargnani. Bargnani is a far superior low post threat this season.

[pillwenney]

Spencer is a fine low post player when he gets the opportunties. He really is. He's just almost never down there.

And my point is that he simply shouldn't have gone 6-16--not with the shots he was getting.

[Lionel Messi]

Spencer is a fine low post player when he gets the opportunties. He really is. He's just almost never down there.

And my point is that he simply shouldn't have gone 6-16--not with the shots he was getting.

Well, my point was that he isn't good enough to be getting 16 shots. His low post game is "okay", as i said.
He has good touch but he isn't all that big and his overall skill level down there isn't good enough either. There's a reason why he "doesn't get enough touches", he's just not that good.
If this is one of the reasons you guys trash Westphal, then this is just a prime example of why he is the coach and you guys aren't. He knows that Hawes is not a consistent enough threat in the low post to receive more touches.
He went 6/16 because he shouldn't be taking more than 12-14 shots tops.

[KF10]

You cannot compare the post up game of Hawes to Bargnani. Bargnani is a far superior low post threat this season.

How can you say that?

Hawes' initial offense is being inside. 53% of Hawes' offense is inside/around the post area. And getting most of his points there (6.0 points). Bargnani's initial offense is outside/perimeter. A staggering 75% of Bargnani's offense is perimeter based (and he gets most of his points there: 10.6 points). And only 25% are inside offensive opportunity (4.6 points).

How can you say Bargnani possess a superior post offense/threat over a player like Hawes that plays more inside and initiate more of the offense down there?

Well, did Bargnani improved from last year in terms of being a post threat? Absolutely. He is converting his inside opportunities much better. From .589% eFG last year to .638% eFG this year. And creating his own shot better from last year (68% of his inside opportunities were assisted. This year, he is being assisted 60% of the time. Not a whole lot of significant change but it's improving).

I think your post was misinformed and too quick dismissing Hawes' post game. Or at the very least, you did not elaborate what improvements Bargnani did over this year from last year.

I think Hawes is a better post up threat than Bargnani now. If you want to put it into context, Hawes' isn't close filling up his frame. His body maturity is still limiting him to be very productive in the post. I think Hawes can be one of the best low post threats in the NBA once he gets work into his body and his overall consistency being in the post. It's almost scary to think about it. The kid is only 21 years old (just 1 year older than Tyreke Evans), his upside in terms of post dominance is excellent. Hawes' post skill set is advance for his age. He literally has shown us every post move out there at least once throughout his career. It's almost underrated with Kings fans to some extent.

[pillwenney]

Spencer is a fine low post player when he gets the opportunties. He really is. He's just almost never down there.

And my point is that he simply shouldn't have gone 6-16--not with the shots he was getting.

Well, my point was that he isn't good enough to be getting 16 shots. His low post game is "okay", as i said.
He has good touch but he isn't all that big and his overall skill level down there isn't good enough either. There's a reason why he "doesn't get enough touches", he's just not that good.
If this is one of the reasons you guys trash Westphal, then this is just a prime example of why he is the coach and you guys aren't. He knows that Hawes is not a consistent enough threat in the low post to receive more touches.
He went 6/16 because he shouldn't be taking more than 12-14 shots tops.

This is simply not true. His size is his biggest obstacle, but he is very, very skilled down low. He still has trouble holding position at times, and that's a problem, but he rarely actually gets touches down low. But when he does, good things usually happen.

[wiltchamberlain]

I agree with Mitch on this one. I think Spencer is a solid low post player offensively, personally I wish he'd play much more down there rather than shoot his 3pt shot which has been far from consistent. I think the biggest obstacle for him is his lack of strength. As a result I kind of like the idea put up by Mitch a little while back to play him at the four position. I'd figure it would help him to play against smaller guys, and he's also fairly mobile so I don't think opposing fours would have much of a quickness advantage. Even it fails miserably we have nothing to lose.

[Lionel Messi]

Out of everything I've seen this year (raptors game plus other games here and there) he hasn't shown me any consistency and definitely not "every post move in the book". Now maybe that's because i haven't watched him enough but if you compare him to guys like Bogut, Kaman, Hibbert, Lopez and he's simply not even close to them in terms of low post play.
Now I didn't know he was only 21 so he certainly has the potential, but as of right now he isn't a reliable low-post player.
The first thing i remember about his post game from the game against the raptors was him getting iso'd on Bargnani in the post and him tossing up a complete brick/getting partially blocked by Bargnani.

Bargnani actually has a very reliable low post game, but that's mostly because teams switch a small player on him because big players cant guard him at all. So he is usually posting up a SF, and he takes full advantage of them.
The cavs tried putting LeBron on him and he absolutely schooled LeBron in the post.

Maybe Hawes would look a lot better if teams switched a smaller player on him more often, but that's part of Bargnani's package and why he's so hard to guard.

[pillwenney]

Out of everything I've seen this year (raptors game plus other games here and there) he hasn't shown me any consistency and definitely not "every post move in the book". Now maybe that's because i haven't watched him enough but if you compare him to guys like Bogut, Kaman, Hibbert, Lopez and he's simply not even close to them in terms of low post play.
Now I didn't know he was only 21 so he certainly has the potential, but as of right now he isn't a reliable low-post player.
The first thing i remember about his post game from the game against the raptors was him getting iso'd on Bargnani in the post and him tossing up a complete brick/getting partially blocked by Bargnani.

Bargnani actually has a very reliable low post game, but that's mostly because teams switch a small player on him because big players cant guard him at all. So he is usually posting up a SF, and he takes full advantage of them.
The cavs tried putting LeBron on him and he absolutely schooled LeBron in the post.

Maybe Hawes would look a lot better if teams switched a smaller player on him more often, but that's part of Bargnani's package and why he's so hard to guard.

But it's because those guys are bigger. That's my point. It's not an issue of skill.

And it sounds an awful lot like that's your only memory of Hawes from the game, and of his post game in general.