Retro Player of the Year Project

[bastillon]

I copied that, it's more comfortable to work with that way. I hope you don't mind. I wonder where Kobe's defense was though.

Code: Select all

       year   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV
Penny   00   21.4  0.57   5.6   2.2
Reggie  00   24.3  0.59   3.7   1.3

he has no business getting any credit for defense with these guys exploding against the Lakers in the playoffs.

[mysticbb]

A: Kobe
B: KG
C: Duncan
D: Wade
F: Dirk
G: Lebron

How did I do?

Not bad, you need to switch KG and Duncan, everyone else is correct. Massive numbers for James, but with rather low efficiency. Garnett had always problems to score efficient, that shows up in the numbers too. Nowitzki as the only one with a winning record.

If we take Bryant's first two games out, because he wasn't even a starter at this time, it becomes 24.1/6.4/4.0 on 51.1 ts% and 10.6 to-r. The record for him would be 5-6.

[Sedale Threatt]

First of all, he didn't play poorly for 2/3 of the series. And he wasn't "awful" in game 6 (Bastillon). The 9 turnovers certainly nullified a fantastic game, but that didn't make the game awful. It was better than nearly every Kobe Bryant playoff game in 2010.

I'm going to preface everything I say in this post by, "His standards."

Yes, he absolutely did play poorly in four of six games in this series. He might as well have not even shown up for Game 5. He was mediocre at best in Games 2 and 4. Not just statistically, either. The energy and focus in all three outings, especially in Game 5, was noticeably absent.

Indeed, all you heard about during those first two was "elbow, elbow, elbow" until the Game 5 debacle, which left most observers -- including this one -- completely baffled.

I wouldn't call Game 6 awful, either -- but I certainly wouldn't call it good. I'm by no means an advanced-stat geek, but one of the main principles preached by the disciples is the supreme importance of possession and efficiency. If so, it would seem to me that he failed pretty miserably in both categories. I thought he played a lot harder, but I'm not impressed by the pretty numbers he put up.

Again, something intangible was missing, not only in that game but the entire series. I'll let his No. 1 homer, er, fan, (lj4mvp) say it best: "Something clearly went wrong. I'm again not saying it's this rumor (about West banging his mom), but something caused LeBron to suddenly act and play differently than he's ever done before."

That, to me, says it all. It was just obvious.

Beyond that, I have absolutely no idea why you're bringing Kobe up. I don't see how that has any bearing on the subject at hand, and I certainly couldn't give less of a crap about how the two are compared. In my opinion, LeBron surpassed Kobe for good as early as two years ago. It's not even an argument anymore.

Secondly, in the words of Mark Jackson, you're better than that Sedale. The Celtics were 23-5 out of the gates before chemistry and injury severely derailed their season. When healthy, from 2008-2010 that group has played around 65-win basketball, and they brought back elite -- no, super-elite -- defense in the final few games. It's inaccurate to depict this as a JordanBullsian situation of a superior team crumbling against an inferior opponent, when it was quite clear from the opening game of the series that Boston absolutely dominated Cleveland in personnel (players 2-7), on the defensive end and in coaching.

Mike Brown's bizarre rotations -- Shaquille O'Neal logging so many minutes, Anderson Varejao logging so few, West and Z coming and going, leaving Mo Williams on Rondo for so long -- didn't affect how LeBron played as an individual, but they did play a role in Cleveland losing, which everyone seems to want to blame LeBron for. Antwan Jamison and Mo WIlliams, who were guarding arguably the two best Celtics all series, were absolutely horrible defensively. Again, shifting all of this blame to LeBron is bizarre.

Where did I shift ALL of the blame on LeBron? The series underscored two things to me: A. Just how bad a coach Mike "Mr. Potato Head" Brown is; and B. How badly he needs a true wingman.

I highly doubt there was anything Brown could have done to avert the loss, and I am the furthest thing from a coach baiter. It's a player's league. But you'd at least like your coach to bring SOMETHING to the table, and I didn't see much of anything. I don't think he commands any respect from his players, let alone helps from a technical standpoint.

And once again, the rest of the team pretty much cratered in a big series. I drank the Kool Aide this year, and thought they'd turned the corner as a team. But it's pretty clear that this is nothing more than a collection of good role players. He needs more top-end talent.

At the same time, I'm not much interested in excuses. I didn't like it in Nowtzki's case, I didn't like it in Kobe's case, and I don't like it here.

All the defensive contributions are nice, as are the fouls he drew -- probably the one part of his game that improved -- and shining an unflattering light on his coach and supporting cast is definitely valid.

But in the end, it's pretty simple: You either perform, or you don't. In this case, LeBron was pretty well below his admittedly massive standards. He absolutely, 100 percent deserves to be held accountable for that.

As for James, he was one of the best defensive players in the series (and has been one of the best defensive players in the playoffs). Anyone who's done analysis of the ~484 possessions he played in the series would see that his man converts at an extremely low rate, he completely flummoxed Paul Pierce (I think I mentioned this in the 08 thread), he created nearly an extra turnover per game not captured in the box, he committed very few shooting fouls, made a handful of defensive errors, had a number of blocks on layups/close shots, added nearly 8 defensive rebounds per game and over 2 steals per game.

Offensively, outside of the box score numbers, he drew 47 fouls (Rondo was second in the series with 28), he created offense for teammates 40 times -- that is, the number of times the defense collapsed on him and a teammate ended up with an open look because of it. Rondo was second again with 29 occurrences.

Rondo's game 3 was a little better than James game 6, mostly because of turnovers. But the games were quite similar and the fact that Rondo's is lauded as historic while people, including someone in this thread, literally called James' "awful" is flabbergasting, to say the least.

Some good analysis. I appreciate the effort, if not the snobbery towards "box score stats."

Seriously, I have no idea how we've gotten to the point where those are categorically dismissed like the plague while trumping up other stats which are basically charted in the same fashion.

Does his creation of an extra turnover a game and collection of eight defensive rebounds per game trump the fact his scoring dropped, his assists dropped, his shooting in all three facets dropped, while his turnovers increased? No matter what the stat lords might say, those numbers still have qualitative value, and they paint the picture of a player whose production in some very important areas obviously dropped.

And again, most important of all, that's not even getting into the impossible to ignore drop in attitude and energy, leading his own die-hard fans to conclude that he played differently than he's ever played before.

[Doctor MJ]

Corrections made, thanks. I try to be as careful as possible when I'm inputting the results, but stuff happens.

No worries man.

[sp6r=underrated]

A: Kobe
B: KG
C: Duncan
D: Wade
F: Dirk
G: Lebron

How did I do?

Not bad, you need to switch KG and Duncan, everyone else is correct. Massive numbers for James, but with rather low efficiency. Garnett had always problems to score efficient, that shows up in the numbers too. Nowitzki as the only one with a winning record.

If we take Bryant's first two games out, because he wasn't even a starter at this time, it becomes 24.1/6.4/4.0 on 51.1 ts% and 10.6 to-r. The record for him would be 5-6.

I figured Kobe's numbers were deflated because of teenage years. I'm mad at myself for confusing KG-TD. I figured this post was to go against the grain of popular wisdom, so I switched the two.

I have to say you make me appreciate Dirk more and more as a player every time I read your posts.

[Silver Bullet]

A: Kobe
B: KG
C: Duncan
D: Wade
F: Dirk
G: Lebron

How did I do?

Not bad, you need to switch KG and Duncan, everyone else is correct. Massive numbers for James, but with rather low efficiency. Garnett had always problems to score efficient, that shows up in the numbers too. Nowitzki as the only one with a winning record.

If we take Bryant's first two games out, because he wasn't even a starter at this time, it becomes 24.1/6.4/4.0 on 51.1 ts% and 10.6 to-r. The record for him would be 5-6.

ahhhhh - I knew C was KG as soon as I saw it - 49% TS% in elimination games, that can only be KG.

[Doctor MJ]

I can't see any way Jordan doesn't grade out much higher than any of these guys, he's going to be 1 for almost every year, unless you are being a stubborn hater.

Based on the logic used on certain players in the 00' years, I don't see how MJ can pass Duncan in the 90's.

For example, in 1998 should MJ be over Shaq? Shaq(28.8) had a higher PER than MJ(25.2). Shaq has a 31.0 PER in the playoffs, as compared to MJ 28.1.

Well regarding Shaq specifically, there's the matter that he never had a healthy season in any of Jordan's last 3 years (missing about 25 games per year). People would probably ignore that if his team was winning titles come playoff time but they never really managed to get clearly improve come playoff time.

[sp6r=underrated]

A: Kobe
B: KG
C: Duncan
D: Wade
F: Dirk
G: Lebron

How did I do?

Not bad, you need to switch KG and Duncan, everyone else is correct. Massive numbers for James, but with rather low efficiency. Garnett had always problems to score efficient, that shows up in the numbers too. Nowitzki as the only one with a winning record.

If we take Bryant's first two games out, because he wasn't even a starter at this time, it becomes 24.1/6.4/4.0 on 51.1 ts% and 10.6 to-r. The record for him would be 5-6.

ahhhhh - I knew C was KG as soon as I saw it - 49% TS% in elimination games, that can only be KG.

ahhhhh - I knew SB would ignore all KG does right in elimination games 13rpg, 5apg, and focus on the negatives.

[bastillon]

I've seen Malone demolishing his opponents in the playoffs and I wanted to put him above Garnett... but then I looked at how they did against the same team in '00 playoffs - Blazers.

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              MPG   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV   RPG   BPG   SPG
    Malone   39.2  23.8  0.53   4.0   2.6   8.2   0.8   0.8
    Garnett  42.8  18.8  0.44   8.8   2.8  10.8   0.8   1.3

so despite Malone being more efficient overall for the playoffs, Garnett plaed just as well, if not better against the Blazers. Malone was a better scorer, but he wasn't as swarmed (as evidenced by spectacular 8.8 APG). KG's PS is still pretty awesome - 2 triple doubles and one ast shy away from 3rd... that's in 4-game sample against a team that was locking up everyone. even Shaq struggled (relatively speaking) against that team.

Blazers are a good comparison overall, because they played with 4 of the favorites:

Code: Select all

              MPG   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV   RPG   BPG   SPG
    Malone   39.2  23.8  0.53   4.0   2.6   8.2   0.8   0.8
    Garnett  42.8  18.8  0.44   8.8   2.8  10.8   0.8   1.3
    Shaq     45.7  25.9  0.55   4.3   2.7  12.4   1.9   0.1
    Kobe     43.1  20.4  0.55   5.9   2.9   4.9   2.1   1.6

Kobe is clearly dead-last, but that puts Garnett's PS in different light overall. Blazers were great.

[Silver Bullet]

Not bad, you need to switch KG and Duncan, everyone else is correct. Massive numbers for James, but with rather low efficiency. Garnett had always problems to score efficient, that shows up in the numbers too. Nowitzki as the only one with a winning record.

If we take Bryant's first two games out, because he wasn't even a starter at this time, it becomes 24.1/6.4/4.0 on 51.1 ts% and 10.6 to-r. The record for him would be 5-6.

ahhhhh - I knew C was KG as soon as I saw it - 49% TS% in elimination games, that can only be KG.

ahhhhh - I knew SB would ignore all KG does right in elimination games 13rpg, 5apg, and focus on the negatives.

I'll keep this in mind when we get to 95 -

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm leaning towards

1. Shaq
2. Mourning

3-5 (lots of good candidates: Hill, KG, Malone [insane he is still legitimately in the debate for top 5 in 2000], etc)

[sp6r=underrated]

I'll keep this in mind when we get to 95 -

I'm actually open to persuasion on Shaq-Hakeem.

If you want my vote you have to sell me on one of the following arguments

Argument 1. Hakeem only marginally outplayed Shaq in the finals, but that doesn't make up for the fact: (i) Shaq had a significantly better RS. (ii) Shaq was significantly better in the conference playoffs than Hakeem was in his.
Argument 2. Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the finals, but his team was swept because (I) the magic supporting cast was significantly worse in the finals than the rockets supporting cast.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I copied that, it's more comfortable to work with that way. I hope you don't mind. I wonder where Kobe's defense was though.

Code: Select all

       year   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV
Penny   00   21.4  0.57   5.6   2.2
Reggie  00   24.3  0.59   3.7   1.3

he has no business getting any credit for defense with these guys exploding against the Lakers in the playoffs.

1) Kobe didn't guard Penny

2) Reggie Miller's shooting in the 2000 NBA Finals

Game 1: 7 points (1-16) FG <------WOW, he destroyed Kobe
Game 2: 21 points (7-16) FG <-----Kobe gets hurt 9 minutes in
Game 3: 33 points (11-22) FG <------Kobe didn't play due to injury
Game 4: 35 points (9-19) FG <-------Kobe comeback with ankle injury
Game 5: 25 points (7-12) FG
Game 6: 25 points (8-19) FG

So before Kobe hurt his ankle, Miller was shutdown. And even with a badly sprained ankle he still did a good job, and Miller only shot over 50% once in the game 5 blowout.

Miller's stats vs Kobe = 22.6 ppg, 32 for 82 on 39% shooting. Games 2 should be discarded too, and that would knock his FG& even lower.

[An Unbiased Fan]

a

Blazers are a good comparison overall, because they played with 4 of the favorites:

Code: Select all

              MPG   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV   RPG   BPG   SPG
    Malone   39.2  23.8  0.53   4.0   2.6   8.2   0.8   0.8
    Garnett  42.8  18.8  0.44   8.8   2.8  10.8   0.8   1.3
    Shaq     45.7  25.9  0.55   4.3   2.7  12.4   1.9   0.1
    Kobe     43.1  20.4  0.55   5.9   2.9   4.9   2.1   1.6

Kobe is clearly dead-last, but that puts Garnett's PS in different light overall. Blazers were great.

How is Kobe dead-last when he has a 55% TS as compared to KG's horrible 44% TS???? Didn't Webber get dropped off nearly every list because of his bad TS% in 2001?

Seriously, this bleep is B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

[Silver Bullet]

I'll keep this in mind when we get to 95 -

I'm actually open to persuasion on Shaq-Hakeem.

If you want my vote you have to sell me on one of the following arguments

Argument 1. Hakeem only marginally outplayed Shaq in the finals, but that doesn't make up for the fact: (i) Shaq had a significantly better RS. (ii) Shaq was significantly better in the conference playoffs than Hakeem was in his.
Argument 2. Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the finals, but his team was swept because (I) the magic supporting cast was significantly worse in the finals than the rockets supporting cast.

I wasn't talking about Shaq -

[bastillon]

How is Kobe dead-last when he has a 55% TS as compared to KG's horrible 44% TS???? Didn't Webber get dropped off nearly every list because of his bad TS% in 2001?

because he PALES in comparison in every other category ? not to mention that Garnett was clear #1 on his team and Kobe had a 40/20 threat in the low post....

1) Kobe didn't guard Penny

2) Reggie Miller's shooting in the 2000 NBA Finals

Penny torched the Lakers. if Kobe is this elite defender he gets the blame. if Kobe is just average guy on defense, he gets no blame. you pick.

list TS%, ast and turnovers. your cherry picked stats are ridiculously biased.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'll keep this in mind when we get to 95 -

I'm actually open to persuasion on Shaq-Hakeem.

If you want my vote you have to sell me on one of the following arguments

Argument 1. Hakeem only marginally outplayed Shaq in the finals, but that doesn't make up for the fact: (i) Shaq had a significantly better RS. (ii) Shaq was significantly better in the conference playoffs than Hakeem was in his.
Argument 2. Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the finals, but his team was swept because (I) the magic supporting cast was significantly worse in the finals than the rockets supporting cast.

I wasn't talking about Shaq -

Look I love Robinson as a person. I believe he suffered an unfortunate fate when it comes to his historical reputation. Still, you'll have to really write one of the greatest posts in realgm history to get me to favor Robinson in 1995. It will have to contain in depth breakdowns of both players' playoff performance game by game to convince me to go in favor of The Admiral. If you are capable of writing that post, I would love to read it. Because I would prefer to rank 1. Robinson, but I just don't see the argument.

[sp6r=underrated]

list TS%, ast and turnovers. your cherry picked stats are ridiculously biased.

An Unbiased Fan is an unbiased fan. If An Unbiased Fan used biased stats he couldn't be an unbiased fan. If he couldn't be an unbiased fan how could he call himself An Unbiased Fan.

[An Unbiased Fan]

How is Kobe dead-last when he has a 55% TS as compared to KG's horrible 44% TS???? Didn't Webber get dropped off nearly every list because of his bad TS% in 2001?

because he PALES in comparison in every other category ? not to mention that Garnett was clear #1 on his team and Kobe had a 40/20 threat in the low post....

Sorry, but shooting 38.5% FG and 44% on TS knocks KG WAY down as compared to Kobe. And how does Kobe pale in every other category when he avrage 2.1 bpg to KG's 0.8, and 1.6 spg to KG's 1.3? KG had more assists & rebounds, but that doesn't negate his horrible shooting.

Penny torched the Lakers. if Kobe is this elite defender he gets the blame. if Kobe is just average guy on defense, he gets no blame. you pick.

Kidd > Penny. What part of this don't you get? Phil put Kobe on Kidd because no one cared if Penny scored 21 points.

[bastillon]

Sorry, but shooting 38.5% for the playoffs and 44% on TS knocks KG WAY down as compared to Kobe. And how does Kobe pale in every other category when he avrage 2.1 bpg to KG's 0.8, and 1.6 spg to KG's 1.3? KG had more assists & rebounds, but that doesn't negate his horrible shooting.

5 assists and 6 rebounds more don't negate scoring couple of points. got it.

you still haven't answered the Shaq part. Garnett isn't shooting 40% if he has 40/20 threat in the low post. Blazers absolutely harassed KG, Kobe was enjoying much more room because of Shaq.