Escobar, Cain, Odirizzi and Jeffress for Greinke+

[Ruben Douglas]

LOL at the Cubs fan trying to rain on our parade.

Nope, just asking questions that popped up after the trade. LOL at you immediately getting defensive over a few simple questions! I'm kidding.

[MajorDad]

a few odds and ends that haven't been mentioned.

the brewers have 2 first round draft picks in the top 15 this year (2011) because they were unable to sign their first round draft pick last year. they should be able to draft two very good replacements wit h those two picks.

Cain had a very nice trial run after being called up. Did anybody notice he was platooned to make him look good almost exactly how Escobar was platooned to look good in 2009? Given a chance to be an everyday outfielder, I doubt he is anything more than a .280 hitter with 15 homers and 20 SB. Cain will also turn 25 next April.

we gave up a lot of prospects. but hey , without Fielder, and without a quality pitching staff , all the prospects in our farm system were not going to bring us a division championship. At least now, we have an actual viable chance to win a championship.

I'd gladly give up 5 AA crowns and 3 AAA crowns for 1 major league divison championship. I could care less about what our minor league teams look like. it's time brewers fans started looking at their minor league players the same way other teams and their fans look at them. they are tradable pieces to acquire proven vets.

I keep reading Cronus saying how bad Betencourt is. but he uses no stats to back up his words. All he ever says is he's terrible and a piece of crap. At least he can hit.

this trade will provide us a great opportunity to evaluate if overall team defense leads to a pitcher's success. if Greinke, Marcum and Yo suck this year, we will know for sure that a team's infield defense makes pitchers look good. If our pitchers suck, then we will know it's time to replace all these great hitting infielders with a few players who have range and can catch.

by trading for greinke and not signing pavano , the brewers kept their second round pick for 2011 whic h they would have had to give up if they had signed pavano.

Something that also hasn't been said. if the brewers don't get off to a good start, they could still trade Fielder and Greinke for prospects at the trade deadline. I have to believe their value will at least be the same as it is now, and maybe even higher. And we'd be no worse off than we are today.

And lastly , there are still plenty of free agents left on the market that could fill our need at CF and also at SS that would accept a 1 year deal. and since we're not overpaying for a FA pitcher this year, and since hall, hoffman, and suppan are now off our books, we still have some money left we could spend. and who knows , we might sign Soriano or Cameron or Damon or somebody good.

I like moves where you trade unproven players for vets. and it's not as if any of the players we gave away were top 50 prospects anyway. when was the last time an unproven brewers prospect that was traded ever became an all star? other than Sheffield? and We knew sheffield was already proven and good when we traded him.

we gave up a lot. but i believe we had to make this trade. i also believe betencourt will be better than thought.

and before somebody thinks greinke is the greates t brewers pitcher of all time, I'd like to say he's a great addition, but he's no tom seaver or hallady. I liken him to a matt cain.

and to the person who said Yo would be a great #3 , I believe YO will be our #2 pitcher, marcum #3 and wolf #4. the brewers may have Wolf as #3 depending on how they want their pitching match-ups to be. but having wolf as our 4th best pitcher is a great feeling!

[clownparade]

you cant get in the endless cycle of developing prospects then as soon as one turns out good you trade him for more. thats why i like the deal so much, brewers had to decide if they want to go for it or try to emulate what the royals like to do.

[Turk Nowitzki]

Maybe that was poor wording on my part...all I'm saying is that things may not go according to plan and the entire franchise may suffer...

You can say the same thing about any team outside of the 4 or 5 that can buy their way out of anything. I'll take my chances with these moves.

[humanrefutation]

I disagree. I have never seen a professional team promote making the playoffs as such a success as the Brewers have. Didn't they have a Sabathia bobble head day just last year? The playoff rally for the Brewers was almost comical. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. But the expectations for the Brewers for such a long time was to just get to .500, then it was the playoffs...so the next logical step would be to advance in the playoffs...but let's be realistic here, if the Brewers just make the playoffs it will be considered a success...as it should be.

I actually agree here. Making the playoffs would be considered a success in the eyes of the organization and in the eyes of many Brewers fans. But, I think many of us would like to see us advance to the NLCS or further before they label this move a success, and I can't argue with that, either. Success means different things to different people.

I guess the questions are as follows:

1. If we make the playoffs this season, will this move be a success in your eyes? The NLCS? The WS?
2. If we miss the playoffs this season due to major injuries, will you give Melvin the benefit of the doubt on this move?
3. If we miss the playoffs this season but lock up Greinke and Marcum long term, are you okay with these moves? What about just Greinke or Marcum?

I could see varying answers to each of these questions. Hindsight is always 20/20, so there will be a lot of heat on DM and MA if we aren't successful. Ignoring that reality, I'm fine with Melvin making this move now. We can't predict how the season will play out, but we've set up our roster to be competitive in the short term, and if we're okay with a win-now move, then I don't see how you can oppose this move.

[trwi7]

Just the playoffs is not a success. Been there, done that. It was cool when pretty much nobody on this board saw a playoff game in their lifetime, not good enough anymore.

[Turk Nowitzki]

LOL at the Cubs fan trying to rain on our parade.

Nope, just asking questions that popped up after the trade. LOL at you immediately getting defensive over a few simple questions! I'm kidding.

Not getting defensive at all, it came off as more a lecture in some parts, but it's all good.

[Ruben Douglas]

I actually agree here. Making the playoffs would be considered a success in the eyes of the organization and in the eyes of many Brewers fans. But, I think many of us would like to see us advance to the NLCS or further before they label this move a success, and I can't argue with that, either. Success means different things to different people.

I guess the questions are as follows:

1. If we make the playoffs this season, will this move be a success in your eyes? The NLCS? The WS?
2. If we miss the playoffs this season due to major injuries, will you give Melvin the benefit of the doubt on this move?
3. If we miss the playoffs this season but lock up Greinke and Marcum long term, are you okay with these moves? What about just Greinke or Marcum?

I could see varying answers to each of these questions. Hindsight is always 20/20, so there will be a lot of heat on DM and MA if we aren't successful. Ignoring that reality, I'm fine with Melvin making this move now. We can't predict how the season will play out, but we've set up our roster to be competitive in the short term, and if we're okay with a win-now move, then I don't see how you can oppose this move.

[/quote]

Good post. You may not like this comparison, but I liken it to the Bears trade for Jay Cutler. Where most people said that the Bears gave up too much by giving up 2 first round draft picks and they now blindly say Cutler sucks...however, at the time of the trade, as a fan I was glad to finally see my team GM make a ballsy move to obtain what was deemed an obvious solution to my teams greatest need. 1st round picks pan out half the time and with the Bears history I was willing to give up what would ultimately be two bad 1st round picks by Angelo for a chance at having a great QB...whether that is the case or not remains to be seen and up for debate.

But that is what the Brewers are doing. Traded top prospects for a proven commodity that has the ability to be an ace...whether that happens or not we will all see this season. And to be honest, how many season tickets do you think the Brewers just sold today?

[clownparade]

fans of teams like the yankees/redsox or cubs ect wont understand trades like this because they just buy players and can have a payroll 200 million. trades like this have to be made for teams like the brewers. and imo making playoffs is a success, this isnt the nba where half the league makes the playoffs, it does matter in baseball.

i also like how a chicago fan smugly refers to a cy young winner and great pitcher as a guy who simply "has the ability to be an ace" meanwhile if the cubs had traded for somebody like this they would be trying to put his name in the hall of fame about right now

[Turk Nowitzki]

fans of teams like the yankees/redsox or cubs ect wont understand trades like this because they just buy players and can have a payroll 200 million. trades like this have to be made for teams like the brewers. and imo making playoffs is a success, this isnt the nba where half the league makes the playoffs, it does matter in baseball.

This.

[livestrong4ever]

fans of teams like the yankees/redsox or cubs ect wont understand trades like this because they just buy players and can have a payroll 200 million. trades like this have to be made for teams like the brewers. and imo making playoffs is a success, this isnt the nba where half the league makes the playoffs, it does matter in baseball.

This.

yes sir.
Who knows what will happen during the mlb season, yes obviously the phillies have a great pitching line up. but in a playoff series if we make it that far our top 3 can certainly contend with their top 3.
Now our offense has to come through this season, fielder has to be that 40 plus hr guy, corey hart has to continue to produce. Corey Mchagee has to continue to amaze people.
But finally the brewers have pitching, finally. never thought i would see Melvin of all Gm's trading offense for pitching after what he did in texas, and what he was doing here.

[paulpressey25]

fans of teams like the yankees/redsox or cubs ect wont understand trades like this because they just buy players and can have a payroll 200 million.

Yeah. This is where MLB really, really sucks and lost me a long time ago.

If we had a market where we could support even just a $120mm payroll, right now we could triple down and just give Pavano his money, try and buy back Cameron and add maybe a high priced vet catcher or SS. And thus be well positioned to maybe win the division and go farther.

Instead we'll pray for 100% health and hope some lower tier guys can fill in, with the hopes we can get 90-wins and a wild card or division title.

[MajorDad]

let's put it in a different light ..... without making this trade, the brewers had no chance of making the play-offs next year or any year after. I believe every brewer fan ackowledged our hitting was not going to take us to the play-offs. and looking at our prospects, and the anticipated loss of Fielder in 2012, our future after next year wasn't looking very bright.

this was a deal the brewers had to make.

I believe both the Giants and rangers proved that your goal should be to make the play-offs. and once in the play-offs, anything can happen. last year , it was a foregone conclusion the world series would be phillies and yankees.

on the downside, melvin saved his job and will probably be given a 3 year extension. I've said all along, melvin has an eye for pitching, he just doesn't value it very highly. In the past 5 years , Melvin traded for CC Sabathia. he also had deals agreed upon for Halladay, Peavy and Bedard. The hallada y dea l was canceled by hallady invoking his no trade claus. the Peavey and Bedard deals were caneled because of their injuries. Wolf was supposedly the second best FA pitcher last year, and melvin also went after pavano who was supposedly the second best FA pitcher this year.

[MickeyDavis]

I keep reading Cronus saying how bad Betencourt is. but he uses no stats to back up his words. All he ever says is he's terrible and a piece of crap. At least he can hit.

At least he can hit? This guy has a CAREER OBP of less than .300. No he cannot hit.

[MajorDad]

Mickey - your name came up a couple of times in this thread. they called you a blogger wh o reported the Adam dun n dea l as a done deal.

as for career OBP less tha n .300, I say it's all about sample size. just last year , people were saying gomez was a career .290 hitter. We know that wasn't true.

I'm not a huge betencourt fan, but he beat out several other KC players who were penciled in as starters last year. betencourt was supposed to get about 250 atbats last year as a super utility guy. betencourt was supposed to be KC's Counsell. he ended up starting.

I believe betencourt would be a great replacement for Counsell as our utility infielder. I'd really love to see the brewers add renteria or lopez or "GASP" that guy named Reed - I mean Reid. In a perfec t world , betencourt would be a great super utility player, and the brewers would sign a decent FA shortstop. if we all believe betencourt sucks, i have to believe Melvin's new scouting staff is also well aware of his shortcomings. KC had several other shortstops i n their organization. it sems odd this is the one melvi n chose. either Melvin's scouting staff is terribl y wrong , or melvin has alread y targeted somebod y else as his starter. or betencourt is better than his stats and people seem t o think.

Either join my bandwagon and call out melvin's scouting staff as not doing their homework. or give melvin's scouting staff some credit and betencourt isn't as bad as some brewers "FANS" think. when the guys here saying betencourt sucks start getting paychecks as brewers scouts, then I'l l start believing their opinions. until then , their opinions are just as good or as bad as mine.

[Ruben Douglas]

on the downside, melvin saved his job and will probably be given a 3 year extension. I've said all along, melvin has an eye for pitching, he just doesn't value it very highly. In the past 5 years , Melvin traded for CC Sabathia. he also had deals agreed upon for Halladay, Peavy and Bedard. The hallada y dea l was canceled by hallady invoking his no trade claus. the Peavey and Bedard deals were caneled because of their injuries. Wolf was supposedly the second best FA pitcher last year, and melvin also went after pavano who was supposedly the second best FA pitcher this year.

Spelling mistakes aside...Because Melvin knows that Halladay, Peavy, Pavano, and Greinke are good pitchers doesn't mean he has an eye for pitching talent. Any 8 year old that plays video games could tell you that you want guys like that on your pitching staff.

My question, when did Melvin have a deal on the table for Halladay? I don't remember ever hearing about that.

[trwi7]

Before he was traded last year but Halladay wanted to have spring training in Florida.

[El Duderino]

lol at the people that want renteria. Don't let one hr he hit off cliff lee fool you, he's terrible defensively and always injured.

If Betancourt is our starting SS, I will be furious. I would take anybody over him.

This. Really has nothing to do with what happened in the WS. I do not want to watch Betancourt. Renteria is available.

Scutaro, sure, if we can pull it off.

Isn't Scutaro Boston's everyday SS?

If so, why would they trade him?

[trwi7]

Boston has Jed Lowrie.

[El Duderino]

Keith Law came out with his reaction to the deal. Loves it for Milwaukee, hates it for KC. Said they got low upside players and they opted for fit instead of impact.

Cain and Escobar are not top of the line impact players. Neither is special at the plate. I don't like giving up Odorizzi, but he was years away from contributing and a lot can happen in that amount of time. Losing Jeffress, if it is him, would hurt. I think he could have been our 8th inning guy for the next six years.

But again, we got ace, someone with the best raw stuff west of the Potomac. We needed a team like KC to reach on fit, because no way does our package net a legit Cy Young candidate most years.

We lucked out that Greinke said no to going to Washington because they had more to offer. In fact, many teams had more to offer, but Geinke balking at certain teams and wanting to play here bailed us out.